Green Goblins comment in the Night Gwen Stacey Died

[Mauled]

Re-reading the issue and while its still a classic story and that scene with the "snap" when Gwen died is so chilling even more so as Peter is congratulating himself for saving Gwen. Yet one thing puzzles me. That's, Goblins comment that the shock of the fall killed her already. Why would he say that ? From his perspective It's basically giving his sworn enemy a pass on killing his Girlfriend causing less pain. Which from his crazed perspective he wouldn't want to do as he wants Peter to suffer for what happened to Harry. Like I said it seems odd.
Was that writers trying row back on Spidey actually killing his Girlfriend by making it ambiguous because if so why do the Snap sound then ?
I know that afterwards they confirmed yeah Spidey did break her neck but that was later.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

As per Gerry Conway himself,

Tom DeFalco: In your mind, was Gwen still alive until her neck snapped?
Gerry Conway: "Could be! Honestly, I don't know — I'm not sure why I added that sound effect, or what I meant to accomplish; as I say, it was the result of a subconscious decision. Consciously, I've always thought that she was already dead when Spider-Man caught her. But if that's true, why did I put the 'SNAP' in? What was the purpose of it? Spider-Man couldn't hear it. It was strictly for the audience. What was I trying to say? That 'SNAP' came from a pure artistic impulse. It was not calculated or part of a master plan to mess with the readers' heads...That said, I'd sure like to believe she was already dead."

— Comic-Creators on Spider-Man, Titan Books, 2004 Edition, Page 47-48.

The production process on The Night Gwen Stacy Died had Conway write the original script, and give the art to Gil Kane to draw, and then the writer, Conway, on seeeing the art added in sound-effects, and without thinking stuff through added in the "SNAP" sound-effect. In other words, the story as originally written was never intended for Gwen to die as a result of the snap. She was intended to be killed by the Green Goblin, and the only reason people think otherwise is a last second improvisation on the part of the writer.

In-Universe, Green Goblin killed Gwen when he rammed her off the bridge and she died of a fall.

The "snap" thing never made any amount of sense because before and after Gwen's death, Spider-Man webbed many people in-flight in that manner (including a baby) and none of them died.

Gwen Snap Spidey 1.jpg

Gwen Snap Spidey 3 - ASM #362.jpg

Gwen Snap Spidey 4 - ASM Back in Black 2.jpg

[Mauled]

As per Gerry Conway himself,




The production process on The Night Gwen Stacy Died had Conway write the original script, and give the art to Gil Kane to draw, and then the writer, Conway, on seeeing the art added in sound-effects, and without thinking stuff through added in the "SNAP" sound-effect. In other words, the story as originally written was never intended for Gwen to die as a result of the snap. She was intended to be killed by the Green Goblin, and the only reason people think otherwise is a last second improvisation on the part of the writer.

In-Universe, Green Goblin killed Gwen when he rammed her off the bridge and she died of a fall.

The "snap" thing never made any amount of sense because before and after Gwen's death, Spider-Man webbed many people in-flight in that manner (including a baby) and none of them died.

Gwen Snap Spidey 1.jpg

Gwen Snap Spidey 3 - ASM #362.jpg

Gwen Snap Spidey 4 - ASM Back in Black 2.jpg

Cool thank you.

I should say that i5 have read that there was a response in a letters page saying yes he did kill her though like you said, why is this different from the thousands of times he's done it before

Side Note some of the 70's dialogue is pure of the time period too like when Peter refers to him and Gwen being a couple of straights. Like im not sure what that even means ???

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I should say that i5 have read that there was a response in a letters page

Then Editor-In-Chief Roy Thomas said that, and it was largely in response to the fan backlash and a need to shut down debate and attacks, so that people know there was no way Gwen could have lived. Had Spider-Man not shot a web-line, she would have died upon hitting the water anyway.

The intent of that scene was to build suspense around the expectation that Spider-Man would save Gwen at the last moment...so you as a reader, i.e. the reader when they first read this comic, had to believe that Spidey would save the day at the last moment, just as always. Only this time it doesn't work.

...why is this different from the thousands of times he's done it before

Because the thumb was on the scale that's why. In the court of criminal justice, Green Goblin is responsible for Gwen's death. He kidnapped her and brought her to the top of the bridge to endanger her. Most crucially, when Spider-Man goes to save Gwen, Goblin rams the glider at him at top speed, ramming Gwen off the bridge. So Green Goblin killed Gwen end of story. That's the story and plot Gerry Conway and Gil Kane wrote.

The "snap" was just a gimmick Conway introduced as a gimmick and was never supposed to be actually followed-upon (i.e. Spider-Man actually held accountable within the narrative for Gwen's death).

However, Peter Parker still has moral responsibility and culpability for Gwen's death:
-- Peter Parker knew that Norman Osborn was Green Goblin, and that Norman has mental illness and could be a danger to himself and the people around him.
-- Peter Parker didn't turn Norman in (which is a crime...failure to report a crime).
-- Peter Parker allowed Norman Osborn to worm his way into his supporting cast, and exposing everyone he knew in his life (Harry, Gwen, Mary Jane, Aunt May, George Stacy, Jonah, Robbie, Flash) to danger.
-- To the extent that you could introduce extenuating circumstances to pardon Peter (Norman's amnesia, Amnesia Norman doing some good, including an earlier issue where he saved Gwen's life...yeah that happened), that went out the window with the Drug Trilogy (ASM#96-98), where Norman relapsed badly.

So at the start of ASM#121-122, Peter knew Norman was mentally ill, was the Green Goblin, and had relapsed once before and could again, and he still allowed himself and his supporting cast near him. And for those who argue there wasn't anything Peter could do (no legal resources and evidence to turn Norman in), all he had to do was tell the truth, and reveal his identity and Norman's to Gwen and others, putting them on warning about the presence of a living time bomb in their midst.

So that's the additional tragedy in the story...Norman Osborn/Green Goblin spitting on Peter Parker's mercy, and another innocent close to him paying the life because, to turn a phrase, "he let the burglar go free".

Side Note some of the 70's dialogue is pure of the time period too like when Peter refers to him and Gwen being a couple of straights. Like im not sure what that even means ???

In that context, "A couple of straights" means innocents. In the '70s context, straights would be people who didn't drink, smoke, shoot drugs and so on and so forth, i.e., the kind of people who don't have it coming to them. The intent was to sell the tragedy of Gwen as this innocent being cut down in her prime.

[Snoop Dogg]

yeah so peter broke her neck

[Scott Taylor]

At the time when this story was written, there had been cultural discussions about suicide which led to this understanding that the brain shuts off at some point in a long fall. Thus the Goblin's statement "she was dead before she hit the ground." There is still debate about whether that is true or not, but at the time the story was out it was being actively discussed for some reason.

Its a nice sentiment. I'd rather think that your brain just shuts down during a fall rather than thinking falling people's lives end with a progression of conscious sheer terror to an instant of extreme pain. The mind is a powerful thing. Most athletes would tell you that excelling at sports is a mental thing just as much as a physical thing. So the mind could suicide a person if it perceived that the situation was hopeless.

But the only thing with Gwen is that she was already unconscious or dead at the time of the fall. Not reactive at all, just lying there with eyes closed. How does the "shock of a fall" kill someone who is unaware of what is even happening? So maybe that went through Conway's mind when he added the snap? Just to cover the bases?

Personally I think she was either dead already on top of the bridge or the glider hitting her killed her or it was the snap. But it wasn't the fall.

[NC_Yankee]

Then Editor-In-Chief Roy Thomas said that, and it was largely in response to the fan backlash and a need to shut down debate and attacks, so that people know there was no way Gwen could have lived. Had Spider-Man not shot a web-line, she would have died upon hitting the water anyway.

The intent of that scene was to build suspense around the expectation that Spider-Man would save Gwen at the last moment...so you as a reader, i.e. the reader when they first read this comic, had to believe that Spidey would save the day at the last moment, just as always. Only this time it doesn't work.



Because the thumb was on the scale that's why. In the court of criminal justice, Green Goblin is responsible for Gwen's death. He kidnapped her and brought her to the top of the bridge to endanger her. Most crucially, when Spider-Man goes to save Gwen, Goblin rams the glider at him at top speed, ramming Gwen off the bridge. So Green Goblin killed Gwen end of story. That's the story and plot Gerry Conway and Gil Kane wrote.

The "snap" was just a gimmick Conway introduced as a gimmick and was never supposed to be actually followed-upon (i.e. Spider-Man actually held accountable within the narrative for Gwen's death).

However, Peter Parker still has moral responsibility and culpability for Gwen's death:
-- Peter Parker knew that Norman Osborn was Green Goblin, and that Norman has mental illness and could be a danger to himself and the people around him.
-- Peter Parker didn't turn Norman in (which is a crime...failure to report a crime).
-- Peter Parker allowed Norman Osborn to worm his way into his supporting cast, and exposing everyone he knew in his life (Harry, Gwen, Mary Jane, Aunt May, George Stacy, Jonah, Robbie, Flash) to danger.
-- To the extent that you could introduce extenuating circumstances to pardon Peter (Norman's amnesia, Amnesia Norman doing some good, including an earlier issue where he saved Gwen's life...yeah that happened), that went out the window with the Drug Trilogy (ASM#96-98), where Norman relapsed badly.

So at the start of ASM#121-122, Peter knew Norman was mentally ill, was the Green Goblin, and had relapsed once before and could again, and he still allowed himself and his supporting cast near him. And for those who argue there wasn't anything Peter could do (no legal resources and evidence to turn Norman in), all he had to do was tell the truth, and reveal his identity and Norman's to Gwen and others, putting them on warning about the presence of a living time bomb in their midst.

So that's the additional tragedy in the story...Norman Osborn/Green Goblin spitting on Peter Parker's mercy, and another innocent close to him paying the life because, to turn a phrase, "he let the burglar go free".



In that context, "A couple of straights" means innocents. In the '70s context, straights would be people who didn't drink, smoke, shoot drugs and so on and so forth, i.e., the kind of people who don't have it coming to them. The intent was to sell the tragedy of Gwen as this innocent being cut down in her prime.

I hate the concept of Peter being held to blame for Gwen’s death. Norman Osborn is one of the nastiest villains in Marvel ( maybe not Carnage or Red Skull but bad enough), and I am not letting him off the hook. In fact, if you add Sins Past to the equation, you find out he is even worse. Peter’s mistake is being too decent of a human being when it comes to Osborn, but it is just that a mistake, and anyone is entitled to a mistake. Add to the fact that Peter has saved thousands of lives down throughout the years from the likes of Osborn and Otto, should give him a pass for Gwen.

[scilover]

As per Gerry Conway himself,




The production process on The Night Gwen Stacy Died had Conway write the original script, and give the art to Gil Kane to draw, and then the writer, Conway, on seeeing the art added in sound-effects, and without thinking stuff through added in the "SNAP" sound-effect. In other words, the story as originally written was never intended for Gwen to die as a result of the snap. She was intended to be killed by the Green Goblin, and the only reason people think otherwise is a last second improvisation on the part of the writer.

In-Universe, Green Goblin killed Gwen when he rammed her off the bridge and she died of a fall.

The "snap" thing never made any amount of sense because before and after Gwen's death, Spider-Man webbed many people in-flight in that manner (including a baby) and none of them died.

Gwen Snap Spidey 1.jpg

Gwen Snap Spidey 3 - ASM #362.jpg

Gwen Snap Spidey 4 - ASM Back in Black 2.jpg

Oh wow! I had no idea this was the case. I always thought it was some small mistake and I just looked over it. Crazy how one word can change the whole spider-man character forever.....