Marvels “push” of the FF...has it worked?

[captchuck]

I think the new series by Slott has been great. I'm very pleased!

[Denkota]

I think it foolish to "push" something. Either readers will like it or not. Pushing a thing rarely works if the writer can't deliver. This can be seen in the case of Carol who wasn't getting good numbers regardless of push until Kelly came along. The same can be said about Cate and venom. Till he came Venom was a dumb muscle-bound monster who was always trying to eat your brains. At least he has moved him from being Spider Man's bitch/headache to a character who can stand alone without having to depend on him. Whether it works after he leaves remains to be seen. Dan Slott has a peculiar style of challenging readers expectations when he gets a title and almost always tries to needle them and has a tendency to focus on characters he prefers to the detriment of others. He so far hasn't lit the world on fire with his work on FF because it seems he hasn't got anything new to say about the FF except for the wedding. Perhaps it would have been better if he had them go against the maker for the first arc where he somehow tracked them and assumed control of the universes they created and usurped the universe making process. His interactions with them while they were in his power would have been interesting to watch. Then Reed could have escaped somehow and contacted Ben and Johnny to come to the rescue. Alas all he could offer was a pseudo death like cosmic entity.

[Anthony W]

Dan Slott has a peculiar style of challenging readers expectations when he gets a title and almost always tries to needle them and has a tendency to focus on characters he prefers to the detriment of others.

So...he's Rian Johnson and he is much better on B-list characters instead of franchise characters like Iron Man and FF.

[Shadowcat]

I agree. He had a good build up from Lobdell. But then when Claremont revealed that he was Dr Shinski from the Enclave that didn't work for me. I don't think anyone has ever revisited the fact than he slaughtered all the monks in that hidden fortress in Tibet where Doom exiled himself after the accident.

Definitely something that should be revisited, and maybe retconned. Maybe have Dr. Shinki as a brainwashed plant for the original Crucible.

There’s potential with the Overseer and the Griever, they just need to be fleshed out a lot more. I could see them taking the Overseer in a High Evolutionary direction.

[Crimz]

push? push??!

Maybe it's because of the pandemic but I have a different definition of push

This too.

Push is a strong word for what Marvel is doing with the FF. When you look at it, a lot of the recent big things with the FF is just them returning to things Marvel excluded them from due to rights. It's more Marvel pretending that they didn't pettily ban the property from everything than a push.

[your_name_here]

This too.

Push is a strong word for what Marvel is doing with the FF. When you look at it, a lot of the recent big things with the FF is just them returning to things Marvel excluded them from due to rights. It's more Marvel pretending that they didn't pettily ban the property from everything than a push.

It’s been a long time since FF were included...so I would see it as a push. A push to get them back in the top tier maybe, but a push nontheless

[Sataniel]

Definitely something that should be revisited, and maybe retconned. Maybe have Dr. Shinki as a brainwashed plant for the original Crucible.

In one way or another, it will probably be touched upon in the whole Masked Raider - Enclave - Korvac story that now will probably be followed up in 2021.

[Billy Maximoff]

This is a common attitude on these boards regarding a dissatisfaction with Slott's FF tenure. Many parts of these arguments I agree with, others I disagree with. These points are being discussed on other FF threads and points are made on both sides. But it's pretty much a fact that Slott isn't being received with the same reaction as Claremont on FF, Miller on DD, David on Hulk, or Simonson on Thor (not meant to be a complete list).

The FF was a truly revolutionary concept with its introduction in 1961. The juxtaposition of home and superheroing never was so real (or less unreal, ymmv). We see adult TV drama like the Sopranos and Breaking Bad doing the same mix with their tropes of family vs. borderline unreal "work" lives. The mix is what makes the FF, the FF. Relying on one vs. the other hampers potential. Franklin's an a-hole now? Sure, how many 15 yr old boys have you met?

One of the FF's problems is they have remained stagnant of the decades. The rest of superhero books have caught up with it. Do the FF deserve a push? Hell, yes! Slott is dealing with family, introducing new concepts and characters, and advancing relationships. This is what we've been screaming an FF writer should do. Slott's problem is he's not doing it well enough or to our satisfaction. In situations where he should swing for the fences, he misses wildly. In situations where he should bunt to advance a runner, he fails to send to ball far enough to be useful. If we were HS English teachers reading a student's creative writing, he'd get A for effort as he's trying to do exactly what he should be trying to do. But he isn't a student and trying hard isn't worth everyone's $4 a month.

I'm completely fine with Slott's Franklin, he's giving Franklin realistic characteristics even if he is annoying. My main problems with the his FF book is that nothing important really happens or nothing feels like it's going to have any real impact. Slott also likes to create a lot of new characters that'll probably never appear again like the characters from Spyre and what I hate the most is that Slott makes no secret that he's a Thing fan and ultimately doesn't care about the rest of the team, I mean look at all the issues so far that focuses on Ben (first it was his wedding, then it was his Honeymoon, then he somehow had some sort of plot with the monsters of Spyre) and compare that with the rest of the team (Reed only had his storyarc with the Overseer that somehow turned into Ben's story? Johnny had his true love thing with Skye and Sue has had nothing other than to be an ineffective supporting character.)

All this coming from a die hard FF fan, I've read every single issue of Slott's run (I only paged through issue 20 though) even though I lost interest at issue six. I've recently re-read John Byrne's FF run and just by reading the first issue (FF #232) you can tell that Byrne is writing a book for a team of four characters and that he intended to focus and explore on all four characters or at least try and actually he did, I'm not trying to say that I want Byrne to write the FF or anything but I'd really appreciate it if a writer comes along that actually wants to write stories with the entire FF and not just Ben.

[your_name_here]

Who would you propose take over on FF?
What stories would you like to see??

I’d like see something involving The Maker, personally. Although I’ve always wanted Doom to take him on

[Iron Maiden]

Who would you propose take over on FF?
What stories would you like to see??

I’d like see something involving The Maker, personally. Although I’ve always wanted Doom to take him on

It's a shame that almost happened in Bendis's Infamous Iron Man. I get the sense that the switch to Mephisto may not have been the original plan had Bendis continued with the series. AFAIK the only reason the series came to an end was because Bendis got the gig at DC.

I think Ewing is a good choice for the Fantastic Four or maybe even Gerry Duggan. His Savage Avengers has been entertaining with a diverse cast. I never expected Conan to fit in so well.

[U.N. Owen]

Who would you propose take over on FF?

Ewing would be my first choice since he can balance the grounded and weird. Immortal Hulk and his Ultimates run actually got me really invested.

My other choice is Donny Cates. Cates is more suited for Fantastic Four than he is Venom, not that I don't enjoy his Venom run.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I'm completely fine with Slott's Franklin, he's giving Franklin realistic characteristics even if he is annoying. My main problems with the his FF book is that nothing important really happens or nothing feels like it's going to have any real impact. Slott also likes to create a lot of new characters that'll probably never appear again like the characters from Spyre and what I hate the most is that Slott makes no secret that he's a Thing fan and ultimately doesn't care about the rest of the team, I mean look at all the issues so far that focuses on Ben (first it was his wedding, then it was his Honeymoon, then he somehow had some sort of plot with the monsters of Spyre) and compare that with the rest of the team (Reed only had his storyarc with the Overseer that somehow turned into Ben's story? Johnny had his true love thing with Skye and Sue has had nothing other than to be an ineffective supporting character.)

All this coming from a die hard FF fan, I've read every single issue of Slott's run (I only paged through issue 20 though) even though I lost interest at issue six. I've recently re-read John Byrne's FF run and just by reading the first issue (FF #232) you can tell that Byrne is writing a book for a team of four characters and that he intended to focus and explore on all four characters or at least try and actually he did, I'm not trying to say that I want Byrne to write the FF or anything but I'd really appreciate it if a writer comes along that actually wants to write stories with the entire FF and not just Ben.

Well with Byrne, you can tell that Johnny Storm was the character he was most invested in, and that Johnny is the protagonist of his run. To a lesser extent, Susan Storm also. In Byrne's run, Johnny Storm gradually became the character with most development and probably not in the right direction since he had Johnny romance Alicia Masters which few people liked, leading Tom Defalco years later to make her into a Skrull.

Different FF writers have always chosen one of the four as their main focus. Hickman's run was largely the story of Reed and Valeria. Mark Waid's run was also Reed-centric.

So Slott focusing on Ben Grimm and The Thing is not inherently a bad thing or a step too far...it's just, as usual with him, not executed very well.

[Crimz]

Well with Byrne, you can tell that Johnny Storm was the character he was most invested in, and that Johnny is the protagonist of his run. To a lesser extent, Susan Storm also. In Byrne's run, Johnny Storm gradually became the character with most development and probably not in the right direction since he had Johnny romance Alicia Masters which few people liked, leading Tom Defalco years later to make her into a Skrull.

Different FF writers have always chosen one of the four as their main focus. Hickman's run was largely the story of Reed and Valeria. Mark Waid's run was also Reed-centric.

So Slott focusing on Ben Grimm and The Thing is not inherently a bad thing or a step too far...it's just, as usual with him, not executed very well.

Yeah I knew going into the rub who his favourite FF member was and I was fine with Ben being more of the focus. It made a nice change from it being Reed most of the time. It's just that it's been done to the detriment of Reed and especially Sue that I have a problem with.

[Iron Maiden]

Well with Byrne, you can tell that Johnny Storm was the character he was most invested in, and that Johnny is the protagonist of his run. To a lesser extent, Susan Storm also. In Byrne's run, Johnny Storm gradually became the character with most development and probably not in the right direction since he had Johnny romance Alicia Masters which few people liked, leading Tom Defalco years later to make her into a Skrull.

Different FF writers have always chosen one of the four as their main focus. Hickman's run was largely the story of Reed and Valeria. Mark Waid's run was also Reed-centric.

So Slott focusing on Ben Grimm and The Thing is not inherently a bad thing or a step too far...it's just, as usual with him, not executed very well.

I think Byrne kept things as close to equal as possible. Reed had some good stuff going on too. We were introduced to Nathaniel Richards and we learned a bit more about his family other than the sketchy stuff we got in bits over the years. With Ben, we finally met his Aunt Petunia. I enjoyed the surprise there since everyone expected an older woman. But Slott got rid of that too didn't he?

I remember reading on Byrne's old post on his Byrne Robotics that he was not really forcing the next writer into having Alicia and Johnny get married. Roger Stern did that in his brief FF run before Englehart (ugh) takes over. The less said about his run the better.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I think Byrne kept things as close to equal as possible. Reed had some good stuff going on too. We were introduced to Nathaniel Richards and we learned a bit more about his family other than the sketchy stuff we got in bits over the years. With Ben, we finally met his Aunt Petunia. I enjoyed the surprise there since everyone expected an older woman. But Slott got rid of that too didn't he?

I remember reading on Byrne's old post on his Byrne Robotics that he was not really forcing the next writer into having Alicia and Johnny get married. Roger Stern did that in his brief FF run before Englehart (ugh) takes over. The less said about his run the better.

The early part of the run does feature a lot of Johnny Storm, like that issues where he goes after Hammerhead, the drama with his girlfriend who gets, or is revealed to have powers, and becomes part of the Fantastic 5. Ben Grimm definitely gets less focus in the run.

I am not as enthused by the later part of Byrne's run. I do think Byrne's run slacks off towards the end). I don't like the idea of Nathaniel Richards, i.e. Reed Richards' own Corsair*, because to me I preferred the idea, implied by Stan and Jack that the 4 were mundane ordinary people who got powers. If Reed had a space Dad, or Time Dad, that kind of diminishes him, and also makes Reed's genius as something genetic rather than coming from his own application. It was one of the innovations that didn't work, neither did the Alicia/Johnny romance for either character**. I didn't mind how Hickman used Nathaniel in his run but it was not my favorite part of it.


* Byrne making Reed's Dad Nathaniel into a Time-Travelling dude, is an example of his famous cognitive dissonance (if you want to be charitable) or hypocrisy (if you don't want to be). He accused Claremont of making Scott and other X-Men more and more extreme in his run and objected to Cyclops' dad being a space pirate, but then he goes and does the same thing to Reed Richards, in what can only be seen as a kind of one-upmanship. Claremont was an innovator who didn't feel he had to stick to the plans of Stan and Jack for the X-Men, whereas Byrne saw himself as the custodian of Lee-Kirby in his run on FF, but the set-up for Nathaniel being a super-scientist never existed anywhere before he came along.

** Roger Stern marrying Alicia and Johnny together is also the same situation with Byrne. This guy famously threw a conniption when Spider-Man married Mary Jane in ASM but where Mary Jane was set up and introduced as a love interest for Spider-Man, Alicia Masters was always intended by Lee and Kirby to be Ben Grimm's one and only. Somehow the whole "be true to the original characters" idea people parrot around never actually gets observed even by the ones who preach it.