Marvels “push” of the FF...has it worked?

[Snoop Dogg]

Byrne's run was comically bad for every character except Sue, and the run still had her get eyed by a pedophile, miscarry, and get slapped by her husband.

[Sataniel]

It's a shame that almost happened in Bendis's Infamous Iron Man. I get the sense that the switch to Mephisto may not have been the original plan had Bendis continued with the series.

Highly probable, not only is the whole pretending to be Ultimate Reed pretending to be normal Reed randomly convoluted, but also Ewing had Maker comment on Doom in Ultimates.

I think Ewing is a good choice for the Fantastic Four or maybe even Gerry Duggan. His Savage Avengers has been entertaining with a diverse cast. I never expected Conan to fit in so well.

I mentioned way earlier that Ewing would be my #1, and yeah Duggan would be my #2. That's of course because they are my #1 and #2 current Marvel writers in general, but Duggan also illustrated himself capable of writing both at small and large scale, and he is pretty well versed in MU, which I consider a must for F4 writer.

In Byrne's run, Johnny Storm gradually became the character with most development and probably not in the right direction since he had Johnny romance Alicia Masters which few people liked, leading Tom Defalco years later to make her into a Skrull.

What led DeFalco to make her into Skrull was his general tendency to ruin everything.

Ben Grimm definitely gets less focus in the run.

It needs to be noted that basically through the whole of Byrne's F4 run, Ben had his own book. The rest of the team didn't. It absolutely makes sense to focus least on him.

[Snoop Dogg]

Byrne barely touched Ben but still made him look like mashed potatoes for no discernible reason, used his aunt to demonstrate his apparent interest in age gaps(?), and forced a conflict between him and John by using Alicia as a prop.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

What led DeFalco to make her into Skrull was his general tendency to ruin everything.

Well Defalco came and went and no one has felt compulsion to revisit or undo that retcon, such as having Johnny having a romance with "real Alicia" right?

The romance between Johnny and Alicia was a dumb idea to start with, and if there was a Marvel male hero who shouldn't get married, it's Johnny Storm.

Clone retcons are referendums. Did fans feel a hole in their reading experience with the idea that every appearance of Alicia for some 10 years was undone? The answer is no, same as how few fans complained about late 40s and 50s Captain America who was a commie smasher retconned into "not Steve" when the real deal got thawed out.

It needs to be noted that basically through the whole of Byrne's F4 run, Ben had his own book. The rest of the team didn't. It absolutely makes sense to focus least on him.

Good point. And I have no issues with Byrne relegating Ben to the margins and focusing on what interested him. It did serve his run at its best (largely the earlier section).

My argument is that different writers on FF have their favorites and focal interests. Hickman's run is very much Reed-centric, and to be specific Reed-and-Valeria centric. It's not that Susan, Ben, and Johnny didn't get moments in that run, but Hickman didn't do as much with their characters as he did with Reed. So Dan Slott focusing on Ben in his run isn't an issue all-by-itself. In fact, one can make the case that Ben Grimm was arguably the focal character in the original Lee-Kirby run from the early 10 issues to major high points like the Battle of Baxter Building and "This Man, This Monster". He was the emotional center of that run since Reed and Sue were too vanilla, Johnny was too much in love with himself, while Ben had to deal with the relatable issues of what the transformation and becoming a superhero meant.

The issue is how Slott handles and executes his ideas. That's all.

[Iron Maiden]

Byrne's run was comically bad for every character except Sue, and the run still had her get eyed by a pedophile, miscarry, and get slapped by her husband.

Please tell me I don't have to explain the slap to you. Bad enough that people just use that random panel with none of the surrounding circumstances with the PyschoMan, who she later gives a real thrashing.

Without saying it was a positive I think the miscarriage was a touch of realism and shows that even superheroes can suffer tragedy

And you are in the distinct minority since many feel that Byrne's run is #2 behind Lee & Kirby. He certainly was a workhorse and not only did he write and draw, he frequently answered the letters pages, and few times did the lettering.

[Snoop Dogg]

The problem with the miscarriage is not the miscarriage, it's that the bulk of story is about Reed, Otto, and then uh, Victor's mask for some reason. The problem with the slap isn't that it's bad for Reed even with context, it's that such a contrived scenario should't have happened at all because that entire plot was dumb. My only theory for why the Byrne run gets so much love is that the art is nice and fresh for the title, the whole book isn't an underwhelming rehash of Lee/Kirby stuff like a lot of the 70's material, and that after Byrne the book would pretty much get worse and stay mediocre until the 2000's.

[Billy Maximoff]

Well with Byrne, you can tell that Johnny Storm was the character he was most invested in, and that Johnny is the protagonist of his run. To a lesser extent, Susan Storm also. In Byrne's run, Johnny Storm gradually became the character with most development and probably not in the right direction since he had Johnny romance Alicia Masters which few people liked, leading Tom Defalco years later to make her into a Skrull.

Different FF writers have always chosen one of the four as their main focus. Hickman's run was largely the story of Reed and Valeria. Mark Waid's run was also Reed-centric.

So Slott focusing on Ben Grimm and The Thing is not inherently a bad thing or a step too far...it's just, as usual with him, not executed very well.

I really enjoyed reading Byrne's run (who favoured Johnny), Hickman's run (who favoured Reed), Defalco's run and The Marvel Knights 4 run and Sue is my favourite member so Imo Slott is not just favoring Ben, he's almost forgetting about the rest of the team (especially Sue) I don't want a writer that will turn the FF book into a Sue show with the rest of the team as supporting characters, all I want is a writer that has his favorite but gives everyone something to do at least once in a span of twenty issues.

[Iron Maiden]

The problem with the miscarriage is not the miscarriage, it's that the bulk of story is about Reed, Otto, and then uh, Victor's mask for some reason.

Well, it is a superhero title after all. There was some good set up for Sue's crisis that happened several issues prior to this. She feels something is wrong but doesn't tell anyone, after all Franklin's delivery was not a smooth one either. Byrne also shows us Sue dealing with the loss with anger a few issues later. She feels frustration at being left out of the team, much like she was after Franklin was born and she was replaced by Crystal.




I think readers are too used to the decompression in comics today. I've seen people comment that they can't read the old comics because there are too many panels to read. Byrne throws a lot of things in each issue, sometimes it's a harbinger of things to come....like the mask of Doom suddenly coming to life. The Fantastic Four still don't know it at this time but we the reader know that Doom is alive and survived by using the old mind transfer trick he learned from the Ovoids. Just think, had he been distracted or something, he could have ended up in Aunt May's body

The problem with the slap isn't that it's bad for Reed even with context, it's that such a contrived scenario shouldn't have happened at all because that entire plot was dumb.

I ran through a few of the pages and to me it seems like with today's political climate, it's not so contrived as you think. I can picture the PyschoMan working behind the scenes at Fox News.

My only theory for why the Byrne run gets so much love is that the art is nice and fresh for the title, the whole book isn't an underwhelming rehash of Lee/Kirby stuff like a lot of the 70's material, and that after Byrne the book would pretty much get worse and stay mediocre until the 2000's

We'll just have to disagree. I find his run fun to look back on and re-read from time to time. IMO his Terror in a Tiny Town would make a great way to introduce the Fantastic Four and Doom into the MCU. They've been trapped in Liddleville all this time while the MCU was developing.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I really enjoyed reading Byrne's run (who favoured Johnny), Hickman's run (who favoured Reed), Defalco's run and The Marvel Knights 4 run and Sue is my favourite member so Imo Slott is not just favoring Ben, he's almost forgetting about the rest of the team (especially Sue) I don't want a writer that will turn the FF book into a Sue show with the rest of the team as supporting characters, all I want is a writer that has his favorite but gives everyone something to do at least once in a span of twenty issues.

That's fair.

My only theory for why the Byrne run gets so much love is that the art is nice and fresh for the title, the whole book isn't an underwhelming rehash of Lee/Kirby stuff like a lot of the 70's material, and that after Byrne the book would pretty much get worse and stay mediocre until the 2000's.

A hot take if there ever was one. I see your point but I do think the early part of Byrne's run is interesting and "Terror in a Tiny Town" is a great story (and for that matter even the opening El Diablo story is a great first issue) and "Interlude" is a wonderful issue.

I definitely don't think it's as great as the Lee-Kirby run but I'd put Byrne's on part with Waid/Wieringo's. Hickman's FF is something I favor over Byrne's but to me the appeal of that run is greatly shaped by the grand story Hickman told there, continued in New Avengers/Avengers and brought to a finish in SW'2015.

[Denkota]

@ snoopdoog Don't dare provoke the ancient prophet that is Byrne or he will come on the board and curse your insignificant self out!

[Vordan]

Who would you propose take over on FF?
What stories would you like to see??

I’d like see something involving The Maker, personally. Although I’ve always wanted Doom to take him on

I don’t get how Marvel hasn’t teamed Maker up with evil alternate universe Sue, Johnny, and Ben. Make them the new Frightful Four, it’s what I would do.

[Iron Maiden]

Highly probable, not only is the whole pretending to be Ultimate Reed pretending to be normal Reed randomly convoluted, but also Ewing had Maker comment on Doom in Ultimates.

I missed that reference in Ultimates...but it is a good indicator that the Maker was probably originally going to be the main adversary. There was that bizarre relationship with that doppleganger version of Doom's mother that made things really creepy. Truthfully, I wish Bendis had not brought her into this. Even though it really wasn't his mother's soul or whatever, I think it disrespects the superior work of Roger Stern/Mike Mignola in Triumph and Torment.

I mentioned way earlier that Ewing would be my #1, and yeah Duggan would be my #2. That's of course because they are my #1 and #2 current Marvel writers in general, but Duggan also illustrated himself capable of writing both at small and large scale, and he is pretty well versed in MU, which I consider a must for F4 writer.

Very true. For years, Stan and Jack made the Fantastic Four the hub of the early Marvel Universe even though ASM became a bigger selling title. The Fantastic Four deal with both the mundane day to day life as a family unit and the next big cosmic threat.

What led DeFalco to make her into Skrull was his general tendency to ruin everything.

No argument there. I did like his MC2 universe, esp because he had a grown Kristoff reuniting with Cassie Lang aka Stinger.

It needs to be noted that basically through the whole of Byrne's F4 run, Ben had his own book. The rest of the team didn't. It absolutely makes sense to focus least on him.

That's right.....Byrne was writing The Thing solo comic with Ron Wilson as artists. This solo comic ran for 23 issues during his FF run. Ben had decided to stay behind on Battle World when Secret Wars ended.

I don’t get how Marvel hasn’t teamed Maker up with evil alternate universe Sue, Johnny, and Ben. Make them the new Frightful Four, it’s what I would do.

This really needs to happen. I think it could be a shot in the arm for the current Fantastic Four run but preferably done by someone other than Slott.

[Sataniel]

No argument there. I did like his MC2 universe, esp because he had a grown Kristoff reuniting with Cassie Lang aka Stinger.

Well, he wouldn't ruin MC2 since that was his. But he generally was incredibly petty about any direction he disagreed with. Thus Alicia is a Skrull, thus the Hobgoblin mess, thus ordering Englehart to bring Beyonder back just to show that he is lamer that presented previously, etc.

That's right.....Byrne was writing The Thing solo comic with Ron Wilson as artists. This solo comic ran for 23 issues during his FF run. Ben had decided to stay behind on Battle World when Secret Wars ended.

And before that, there was Marvel Two-In-One

[Billy Maximoff]

Empire #1 was a good example of what Sue should be like Imo, she had a presence and relevant dialogue, if I can get Empyre's Sue in the main FF book I'd be more than satisfied.

[Frontier]

I don’t get how Marvel hasn’t teamed Maker up with evil alternate universe Sue, Johnny, and Ben. Make them the new Frightful Four, it’s what I would do.

It could be that Maker just doesn't want to be in any equivalent of the FF again after how badly it ended for him before.