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  1. #1
    Ph.D. in Dudeism GMikey's Avatar
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    Default Is the phoenix force a quintessent force or... Not?

    So in a somewhat private debate I'm in, we're all discussing um... energy and power principles labeled as "true" and "false" quintessence force or energy. My buddies define this as the power to either "generate/create" energy, or the ability to wield/manipulate a source of energy. "True" quintessence energy is drawn from an internally generated source, the power to "create" one's own energy. "False" quintessence energy is power drawn from an external source, manipulation of existing energy, and recycling and renewing existing energy.

    In said debate concerning... a project many, many fans are participating in, this issue of "quintessence" comes up in regards to the Phoenix Force, for the proposed storyline. I originally argued that the Phoenix is obviously a true quintessence force; however, that was shot down by some facts they brought up about the Phoenix, labeling it a false quintessence force.

    They said that the Phoenix Force is an abstract entity that while "limitless" isn't without its boundaries. For the Phoenix to operate in its Phoenix form through a host, it relies on drawing the life force from future unborn, thus denying them their existence. Though their existence is dead now, that life force is determined by the Phoenix to be used where it is most needed in the Universe (the law of conservation of energy). Also the Phoenix's duty, "Judgement of the Phoenix" revolves around "burning away what doesn't works" and shifting that energy towards growth in the universe. EVEN when Jean Grey became White Phoenix, they explained how she "manipulated" what already existed, and didn't truly "create" anything actually new. She didn't use her power to actually change the future, she just went back in time to nudge Scott to continue his relationship with Emma, and THAT was what changed the future. My friends kinda groan over the fuss about the White Phoenix being extremely high in power, as her greatest known feat, was somewhat no different from the Avengers changing history in Avengers: Endgame. If anything, they were more impressed with the Avengers as, they were mortals that accomplished this feat, vs. a cosmic entity.

    Back on topic, due to the law of Conservation of Energy, they said the Phoenix falls in line with the fact "energy cannot be created or destroyed", and that this principle addresses why the Phoenix can never truly die, as it is energy that simply recycles itself should it be devastated in some way.

    NOW... this is where **** gets weird... using their knowledge of "quantum metaphysics" they actually debunked the "theory" of Conservation of Energy Law, stating that there are principles in existence in which can create and consume/annihilate energy at will... and, maybe I'm a dummy, but they did a pretty damn good job convincing me of that argument (no I'm not gonna recite their explanation, cuz its complicated and I don't even remember all that ****). They state that indeed, there are even other characters in the Marvel Universe that in fact, "violate" the law of energy conservation, one particular entity I don't think I'm allowed to mention here, but this "entity" in fact has the power to "create" energy, thus is a violator of "the Law", and possesses "True" quintessence energy; whereas the Phoenix Force is a "False" quintessence force, as it is a bound form of limitless energy, that requires drawing from the future life force to execute its will.

    I can't mention who this entity is as, they have "MAJOR" plans for them in this animated series, but stated the reason why this entity is "truly" quintessent is because of a "highly" overlooked quantum metaphysical principle, in which they are going to introduce and explore. This is an entity from Marvel's canon, a very unexpected "entity" that indeed possesses an ability the Phoenix is without... at least according to them.

    I'm asking if that's true, that the Phoenix is a "false" quintessence force?

    Based on what said, and all the info they brought out about the Phoenix Force... that seems logical and true. I just wanna make sure that is correct, and that... if it IS correct, then what they will propose for the animated series, will in fact be sound with Marvel's canon.
    Last edited by GMikey; 07-13-2020 at 06:05 AM.

  2. #2
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    Whaaat? The what? I don't think you will ever make the series if you get bogged on clarifying such mind boggling complicated concepts to everyone's satisfaction and may risk losing audience interest if you are going to be so technical. It's a cartoon based on a comic book story and SHOULD NOT be rocket science!

  3. #3
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Yeah, this is all mind-boggling.

    I look at it like this:
    The Phoenix Force is Life Incarnate, a nigh-omnipotent, nigh omniscent super-cosmic force. It can do virtually anything. The Phoenix Force is one of the most powerful Cosmic Entities in the MU. (Everything else that someone wonders or asks can fit around this definition.)
    Last edited by Phoenixx9; 07-13-2020 at 07:35 AM.

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    Yeah that's good. It's following the keep it simple maxim instead of overcomplicating things that are already complicated enough.

  5. #5
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Thanks. I hate the mess that they have made of the Phoenix Force.

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    You are welcome. Yeah, the Phoenix force has suffered from going through various authors hands who sought to add or revise it's canon.

  7. #7
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Glad to have a like-minded friend, especially regarding the Phoenix Force, which is near-and-dear to me!

    I also forgot to say "Welcome" to CBR!

  8. #8
    Ph.D. in Dudeism GMikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denkota View Post
    Whaaat? The what? I don't think you will ever make the series if you get bogged on clarifying such mind boggling complicated concepts to everyone's satisfaction and may risk losing audience interest if you are going to be so technical. It's a cartoon based on a comic book story and SHOULD NOT be rocket science!
    LOL yeah so... I guess that was a bit much

    This isn't create confusion, but to clarify some things, and... NONE of the nitty gritty would ever surface in the visual narrative. This is more for us to come up with a way to make the Phoenix grounded, and renovate it from its retcons and inconsistencies. The idea is to come up with a full solid idea of what WE think the Phoenix Force should be, give it a solid foundation, and then as the stories are written, its powers, duties and character development would have the consistency fans want, yet maintain its mystery and mystique.

    The nitty gritty I'm discussing here would be totally simplified for the sake of the actual story, without all the sci-fi mumbo jumbo. We're just trying to come up with a well constructed piece, that has some metaphysical and scientific soundness and principle, that would surface in trace amounts in the story, allowing the audience to see something finally grounded, non-conflicted, and all while bringing in something new and fresh with the mystique of metaphysics and ****.

  9. #9
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMikey View Post
    LOL yeah so... I guess that was a bit much

    This isn't create confusion, but to clarify some things, and... NONE of the nitty gritty would ever surface in the visual narrative. This is more for us to come up with a way to make the Phoenix grounded, and renovate it from its retcons and inconsistencies. The idea is to come up with a full solid idea of what WE think the Phoenix Force should be, give it a solid foundation, and then as the stories are written, its powers, duties and character development would have the consistency fans want, yet maintain its mystery and mystique.

    The nitty gritty I'm discussing here would be totally simplified for the sake of the actual story, without all the sci-fi mumbo jumbo. We're just trying to come up with a well constructed piece, that has some metaphysical and scientific soundness and principle, that would surface in trace amounts in the story, allowing the audience to see something finally grounded, non-conflicted, and all while bringing in something new and fresh with the mystique of metaphysics and ****.
    I like the idea that the Phoenix (Phoenix Force) is the spark which ignited the Universe, although Galactus would claim he was the spark. Picture a huge, fiery Bird of Prey soaring thru space. It is near-omnipotent, near-omniscent, although it lacks human/humanoid thoughts and more importantly, feelings and sensations. It is one of the most powerful cosmic entities and when it wishes, can merge with a human/humanoid host, granting that host unimaginable power, almost limitless, although the pure PF itself is still way more powerful. The Phoenix has cosmic telepathy and likes hosts with very high-level psionic abilities. It feels protective of its host(s) and seeks to learn what it does not know (again--feelings, emotions, etc) from the host.

    I hope this helps to explain things.

  10. #10
    Ph.D. in Dudeism GMikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    I hate the mess that they have made of the Phoenix Force.
    Yes and... that's the purpose of conversations like these. I feel that fans coming together to create what the Phoenix Force should be, and create something we would feel is sound is a wonderful idea. Giving it a new story, new drive and new cosmic level adventures, is another awesome, brilliant idea. Many, ideas are brilliant and fascinating to me... the issue is... I feel there are too many MCU fans involved, and throwing in ideas without considering the canon source, and how it should work. Also... there are members who have certain character prejudices that... changing the story may or may not work for most audiences. For the most part, our "focus groups" love the new ideas, but... there were those that were vocal about some of these additions and changes.

    One of the things brought to the Phoenix is a "challenger". This idea I think its great, but I wanna make sure that it still syncs with canon enough so the vast majority will appreciate our effort. THIS is why I was asking that question. Something in the plot about "quintessence" comes up, and is the reason why I was asking that if there were some specifics about the Phoenix Force to support "true" or "false" quintessence energy.

    I mean... it may be benign and something that, really shouldn't be asked LOL I just wanna make sure that this Phoenix Saga, we're calling "the Phoenix Trilogy" is as good as we want it to be. Also, I'm prolly jumping the gun as, I do know think tanks are gonna soon be available for others to join in so... you all would get so much better info and insight than what I'm providing here.

  11. #11
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    You may have been typing your above post before I entered mine at "12:09PM". See if that one answers anything you are seeking....

    ....if you need more, just let me know. I am more than happy to share what I know.
    Last edited by Phoenixx9; 07-13-2020 at 09:32 AM.

  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member MichaelC's Avatar
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    There should never have been a "Phoenix Force" to begin with. Phoenix was originally just a combination of an absolute-power-corrupts-absolutely story, and the result of the Hellfire Club messing with Jean's mind. It should have stayed that way.

  13. #13
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    Did your buddies bring in the science of the sun into the conversation? Lots of past legends (outside of comics) pair phoenix birds specifically with the sun. Bring in all the new science we know of the sun, then perhaps maybe possibly; we may someday convey a more "accurate myth."

  14. #14
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kubert View Post
    Did your buddies bring in the science of the sun into the conversation? Lots of past legends (outside of comics) pair phoenix birds specifically with the sun. Bring in all the new science we know of the sun, then perhaps maybe possibly; we may someday convey a more "accurate myth."
    True. And even Marvel used this at first when Jean fought Firelord. It stated Jean's powers "were backed by the power of the Sun itself!"

  15. #15
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    Marvel surely did it's past homework (a la the sun). Exciting present day studies on the sun is happening too = https://www.nationalgeographic.com/s...rbiter-launch/

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