Is the phoenix force quintessent or... Not?

[Ichijinijisanji]

Can't both be true? In its "natural state" whatever that is, the PF is quintessence. But in it's unnatural state, i.e., when it takes a host, or otherwise manipulates a sentient being, it is false quintessence, bounded, and must feed on whatever, whether that is suns or the life spark of the future unborn.

this is probs the case and is basically said in the panels i posted

however during avx thor knocked out the phoenix and it had to replenish itself by consuming a planet

[GMikey]

As in "Jean Grey", lol!

Thanks! I will try to answer your questions as best I can.

this is probs the case and is basically said in the panels i posted

however during avx thor knocked out the phoenix and it had to replenish itself by consuming a planet

Okay everybody!

P.S. I exceeded 10000 characters, so this is split into two parts -_-

So... I chatted with the writers, asked as many questions as I could, and also received some very interesting updates, as far as the Phoenix's story is concerned.
Everyone basically talked about how the story will go, how fans will dictate the direction of the story and such, as well as some really... far out there ideas and concepts to be introduced after the Infinity Gem / Phoenix Trilogy. Far out, in a positive, but hella trippy way LOL

Then finally... came QA... we talked about an hour on this, so I'll try to cut this down as best I can...

I returned to the quintessence of the Phoenix question and how that concept would be developed, and asking for greater detail on what it would mean for the Phoenix to be or not be quintessence. The main writer, mastermind if you will, had a very interesting statement on the subject matter, and hope to have me finally "clarified". I brought to her that it's most possible that the Phoenix Force may be both, that in it's true form, a formless body of energy, it's a true quintessence. However, when taking on a physical embodiment through a host, then it becomes false quintessence. Her reply was interesting...

She says, almost verbatim, if dealing through a "metaphysically uneducated" perspective, then that would be the case. However, if dealing with the true perspective from generational knowledge of age old philosophies, alchemy, ancient science, quantum theoretic metaphysics, and a bunch more she named... says there's no both in this equation. A force is either "true" or "false" quintessent, much like Yoda saying "do, or do not, there is no try".

I argued that the Yoda thing is very different, and she said that she brought that up because of the principle of his line, and that George Lucas had that line in there as he was working with known mystic researcher Joseph Campbell, who helped him shape and construct what the Force should be. Its one of many reasons, she references the Force as what the Phoenix Force should have been, as the Force IS based on realistic metaphysical concepts, created by a metaphysician, despite this being a "fantasy" story.

She says too that she must clarify that she's NOT saying the Phoenix doesn't possess a form of quintessence. She said very emphatically that the Phoenix Force IS a quintessent being... but not one possessing "true" quintessence, thus she used the term "false" quintessence. By virtue of how the Phoenix works in its many stories and iterations, it is not a being possessing true quintessence, for there are so many factors that do NOT line up with what "true" metaphysical quintessence actually is, she states. An example she used is "immortality". There's "true" and "false" immortality. An entity of "true" immortality can never succumb to death in any form, while a "false" immortal could be killed in some way or form. Example of "true" immortality would be Deadpool, who is immune disease and aging and is cursed to never die... vs. Vincent Valentine (Final Fantasy VII) who is a "false" immortal as he no longer ages, but is still subject to death by other means.

"There's nothing wrong with a cosmic entity that is a "false" quintessence energy" she says near verbatim, "metaphysically, true quintessence exceeds the boundaries of cosmic law, and is the element above all elements, one that is ever generating, truly endless, boundless, dynamic, unlimited rudimentary and fundamental energy. False quintessence is bound by cosmic law, and can be "unlimited" but only by the Law of Conservation of Energy, thus it continually renews and recycles itself. You determine the quintessent nature of an entity by virtue of its actual nature, rather than going by personal opinions and feels".

To "clarify" MY (me personally) confusion, especially with how the Phoenix Force will be developed in the animated series, she went down why the Phoenix Force, on all levels, is a false quintessent entity...

(CONTINUE TO NEXT POST)

[GMikey]

As in "Jean Grey", lol!

Thanks! I will try to answer your questions as best I can.

this is probs the case and is basically said in the panels i posted

however during avx thor knocked out the phoenix and it had to replenish itself by consuming a planet

-It doesn't generate/create energy, it recycles existing energy, and reform it anew. A true quintessent entity is a generator of energy, and thus doesn't need to recycle or feed from anything, even if it takes on a mortal host. Another added that even in its "true, formless nature" it is energy mass that is bound within cosmic law, thus still obeying the renewal and recycling of energy.

-The Phoenix's duty of "burning away what doesn't work" is not that of a quintessent entity. This does share relations with the Phoenix of Myth, recycle and renewal, however this pertains to false quintessence energy, not true quintessence. I can't get into the mechanics of her explanation, cuz spoilers. But she then brings this up...

-The Phoenix is a part of the Law of Energy Conservation. This perfectly explains the Phoenix's duty in a scientific manner. That energy can't be created or destroyed, only recycled and transformed into new things. However, according to her, such entities do exist that "violate" this Law (and other cosmic laws), and those that do, possess true quintessence.

-One last point key point (it's a long one), the Phoenix Force is a very "limited" entity, as it's full power can only harnessed by psionic entities; and it's even more so limited as, there's only ONE unique psionic in all of time (Jean Grey), that is deemed its "one true host". She says that metaphysically and spiritually speaking, a true quintessent being is NOT LIMITED to one type of power and person to access it's full power; that one who is simply very rooted and connected to their mutant or supernatural power, should have the same potential as Jean Grey. She lists characters like Scarlet Witch, who IS a master psionic, telepath and telekinetic, should easily be able to be one with the Phoenix. Magneto and his power with electromagnetism (she says scientifically and metaphysically has unlimited potential), should grant him a very powerful connection, and unlimited potential with the Phoenix. Gambit, she says, SHOULD have the same potential to become completely one and the same with the Phoenix, as she details his ability to generate/manipulate kinetic/potential raw energy, far exceeds what psionic power is capable of. The Phoenix, she says, should totally find itself fully at home with someone like Remy as a host, because his mutant ability on a scientific, metaphysical and spiritual level, is the most unlimited and dynamic in potential, and is most untapped, and misunderstood in comics (by comic writers themselves, she adds).

One other thing we kinda discussed and I really agreed with this one, is the "Will of the Heart" being a factor. She said how could the Phoenix be true quintessence, and not be compatible with anyone who is fully in touch with the Will? Using Steve Rogers as an example, his will is so powerful, that without being ordained by Odin, cosmic forces or anything other than the purity of character, he was worthy of Mjolnir. The Phoenix should find the means to tap into Steve's Will of Heart (according to them, willpower is a form of transformative spiritual energy), as that is the purest and most unbound connection one should have with a TRUE quintessence cosmic entity. Kinda like the Stone in the Secret of NIMH, where the Stone's power is awakened by "Courage of the Heart". The Force from Star Wars far better demonstrates unlimited quintessence than the Phoenix does, she says. How can an entity be the sum of the life force, yet limited to only ONE psionic harnessing it's full power, she asks. By no spiritual teachings, is that true or possible.

Now the convo was awesome and I learned a lot about science, metaphysics and crap... but I DID ask... do you REALLY think Claremont, Bendis, Aaron, even Stan Lee and any other writer... knows what you know? They are JUST comic book writers. They only worked with what they immediately knew, "give'em a break" is what I said.

Plenty of laughing emojis later, the master writer ended it with saying she has no intent to bash anyone (except for Bendis), but she can't help her frustration, and desire to educate. As the writer of this massive fan collab Marvel Multiverse, she wants to reconstruct what the Phoenix should have been, through the use of the new Cosmic Entity she's written as the Phoenix's rival. She said almost verbatim that, to actually rewrite the Phoenix Force as a "true" quintessence energy, would mean the total removal of Jean Grey's special seat of being it's one true host, something she feels fans would strongly combat her on. So... her way to fix it is reintroducing a reconstructed the Phoenix as a false quintessence being (as it already is) with better definition of its powers, abilities and cosmic duties... but then introduce what an actual "true" quintessence being would be like, its powers and the kind of duty/destiny that it would have, which would differ from the Phoenix Force.

I asked for a QUICK new definition of the Phoenix Force. She says basically, the Phoenix would be spawned in each Big Bang, by its spark, and using that spark (as itself) to release the energy to create everything within said Universe. The Phoenix Force is a spawn of whichever Firmament/Cosmic Embodiment, containing the current Omniverse. A piece of itself is the Phoenix Force, a limitless, but bounded cosmic force, in which is the Cycle of Life, birth, death and renewal. Psionic energy is what the Phoenix uses to execute its cosmic duty of Life, Death and Renewal, which includes "burning away what doesn't work" aka "Judgement of the Phoenix". Psionic energy is produced from the constant renewal process, which is why psionic power can tap into distant memories, lost loved ones, the Akashic Records, the Astral Plane, and such, recollecting previous forms of energy, and interacting with it. This version of the Phoenix wouldn't necessarily posses a "true" and "false" form, thus somewhat erasing the whole "formless body" aspect, to focus more on it just being an omnipresent entity of life and psionic power, that constantly recycles itself. This would define it as a "false" quintessence force.

The writer says it would work much better to define it this way, as a trade off to maintain Jean Grey's story as the "one true host". She says that fans won't bother with whether or not the Phoenix is "false" or "true" in quintessence, but will throw a fit if she changes the Phoenix's narrative to where Jean Grey isn't the only "one true host" any longer. The introductory of the "Cosmic Rival" would demonstrate the differences between "true" and "false" quintessence, the pros and cons of both, and without these terms necessarily be used "in narrative". The Cosmic Rival, she states again, is everything she would have made the Phoenix Force, had she written it from day one. Its her way of demonstrating what the Phoenix should have been, without changing the actual Phoenix Force into something fans won't recognize. Also, for the Phoenix to confront an entity/rival like this, gives it an all new cosmic adventure, that will explore a lot more with metaphysical principles.

Um... based on all that we discussed, "quintessence energy" is something of deep rooted, metaphysical and quantum mystics doctrine, as once again, I left out a whole lotta we discussed to not make this any longer. This isn't from the immediate definition of "quintessence" from the dictionary; her AND a bunch others talk this spiritual jargon, and they all agreed with what she was talking about. One guy in the chat claimed his father is a member of a Masonic order, and he went into stuff he learned from him, stating passages from book titles, to back up my friend.

Is it all correct? Well... I don't know ANY metaphysical people beyond these few ppl, and certainly don't know any that are into comics and ****. The way it was explained seemed wholly believable, and honestly couldn't argue this one.
================================================== ===================================
One very COOL news, Phoenixx9 you'll love this... Giraud, Rachel Summers, Quentin Quire, Emma Frost, Feron and Jean Grey of course, WILL be involved with where the Phoenix's new story comes to, throughout the counting story arcs. So... WOW lol

They revealed the BIG thing that Jean Grey would have to... be involved with, to reveal a hidden aspect of the Phoenix that I've NEVER seen in comics, and it involves many, many other hosts. A handful will have a short series spotlight on them as Phoenix, and how their relationship with the Phoenix will involve Jean Grey, the other Cosmic X-Man, and the fate of the Multiverse. I did see Giraud listed as one of the hosts with a spotlight mini series, as opposed to Emma Frost who isn't. So... that's super exciting!

Tax season halted the finishing up on the first animated short, but promised to be on resume and out very soon. Once it is out, new think tanks will be announced, and anyone who wants to join can join in!

That's it LOL

[Phoenixx9]

***WOW!!!***

Thanks, GMikey!

That was A LOT! Thanks for all of the detailed note-taking.

But I (think) I get what the writer has planned. It sounds good, INTERESTING and I am on-board! I get the quintessence having to be either true or False (sort of like "ALL" or "NONE"), however, Marvel has so muddled these waters. Her new take may well fix things.

I love hearing the additional hosts mentioned, especially GIRAUD! Please let the writer/creator know that a Major Jean Grey/Phoenix, Phoenix Force and Giraud Fan, whose Avatar is Giraud, is soooo interested and <<needs>> to see Giraud come to life in her work (in a positive way, of course, lol--even if that is being somehow related to Jean---or not)!!!

I am soooo EXCITED!! Please keep me informed!

[GMikey]

***WOW!!!***

Thanks, GMikey!

That was A LOT! Thanks for all of the detailed note-taking.

But I (think) I get what the writer has planned. It sounds good, INTERESTING and I am on-board! I get the quintessence having to be either true or False (sort of like "ALL" or "NONE"), however, Marvel has so muddled these waters. Her new take may well fix things.

I love hearing the additional hosts mentioned, especially GIRAUD! Please let the writer/creator know that a Major Jean Grey/Phoenix, Phoenix Force and Giraud Fan, whose Avatar is Giraud, is soooo interested and <<needs>> to see Giraud come to life in her work (in a positive way, of course, lol--even if that is being somehow related to Jean---or not)!!!

I am soooo EXCITED!! Please keep me informed!

LOL thanx! it wasn't too much note taking as, the chat was open temporarily long enough for me to just copy the important pieces.

After hearing all of it in detail myself, I also felt very strong about what they all want to accomplish. I genuinely hope that THIS would fix things, and give the Phoenix the solidity and consistency it needs. Her belief is the comic writers didn't have a solid foundation of what the new retcon of the Phoenix needed to be, leading to inconsistencies and narrative redundancy.

After hearing more about the relationship between the Phoenix and it's Archnemesis, involving anti-heroics and anti-villainy, is a great way to create a sense of relatable duality. Much like Captain America Civil War, how neither Steve or Tony were completely right or wrong, but their lack of cooperation and willingness to understand each other caused problems. It would evolve into a similar situation, only its cosmic level between cosmic entities, causing cosmic level problems.

I will certainly let her know about your enthusiasm the primary writer or "producer" IS looking to work with as many fans as possible to develop each episodic story. The motto for this fanmade Marvel Universe is "created by fans FOR fans".

The first short should be coming soon. The first arc focuses on the Avengers, the second one introduces more heroes, along with introducing the Mutants, and then comes full focus on the X-Men. After establishing the X-Men, we'll get a brand new "Avengers vs. X-Men" arc, which leads to "The Phoenix Trilogy". Giraud was only announced to be joining the Phoenix Trilogy's later story, "X-Men: Phoenix Revolution", and they confirmed he's among Phoenix hosts with a spotlight mini series, going into his character. They've not announced any details about what kind of stories we'd see with any of the extra Phoenix hosts. My guess is those shorts would involve a lot of fan contributions.

At some point, I will upload images from the series, once she "releases" them lol

[Phoenixx9]

LOL thanx! it wasn't too much note taking as, the chat was open temporarily long enough for me to just copy the important pieces.

After hearing all of it in detail myself, I also felt very strong about what they all want to accomplish. I genuinely hope that THIS would fix things, and give the Phoenix the solidity and consistency it needs. Her belief is the comic writers didn't have a solid foundation of what the new retcon of the Phoenix needed to be, leading to inconsistencies and narrative redundancy.

After hearing more about the relationship between the Phoenix and it's Archnemesis, involving anti-heroics and anti-villainy, is a great way to create a sense of relatable duality. Much like Captain America Civil War, how neither Steve or Tony were completely right or wrong, but their lack of cooperation and willingness to understand each other caused problems. It would evolve into a similar situation, only its cosmic level between cosmic entities, causing cosmic level problems.

I will certainly let her know about your enthusiasm the primary writer or "producer" IS looking to work with as many fans as possible to develop each episodic story. The motto for this fanmade Marvel Universe is "created by fans FOR fans".

The first short should be coming soon. The first arc focuses on the Avengers, the second one introduces more heroes, along with introducing the Mutants, and then comes full focus on the X-Men. After establishing the X-Men, we'll get a brand new "Avengers vs. X-Men" arc, which leads to "The Phoenix Trilogy". Giraud was only announced to be joining the Phoenix Trilogy's later story, "X-Men: Phoenix Revolution", and they confirmed he's among Phoenix hosts with a spotlight mini series, going into his character. They've not announced any details about what kind of stories we'd see with any of the extra Phoenix hosts. My guess is those shorts would involve a lot of fan contributions.

At some point, I will upload images from the series, once she "releases" them lol

Thanx!!

Sounds good---made my day!!

[Kubert]

Is the animated thing fan made or something on Disney+?

[GMikey]

Is the animated thing fan made or something on Disney+?

This is a fan made project, with the collaboration of many and any Marvel fans. However, there is an actual creative team behind it all. The animator (who is the chief writer) does some incredible work, and I love her imagination. Its gonna have an anime-esque aesthetic, which I wasn't sure about at first; but, learning about the over all project and its spawns, I've come to love this direction

[Phoenixx9]

Hi GMikey.

I am sure the art/animation will be great.

I hope the Phoenix characters have a powerful look/build and of course, the occasional Phoenix Raptor Effect (with sound effect too!)!