Polyamory & the X-Men: A Poll

[Gripstir]

Ok.

So you seem to be in the camp of maintaining consistency by keeping certain aspects of established characters essentially immutable.
For instance, if a writer wanted to tell L.G.B.T. stories, you'd have them use established L.G.B.T. characters, or create new ones, rather than transitioning a character into being L.G.B.T. in order to tell those stories.

That about right?

Has there every been a story that included a transition that you thought was well-handled? Or is that you always feel slightly bamboozled by the change?
Like it's not the same character you connected with?

I think it's always a bamboozle because we know right now it's the writers intention to change characters. And if there was zero backlash they would have revamped the whole roster to more progressive changes. It wasn't until the readers boycotted that we reverted. I think the issue is they are approaching it from a belief that heteronormative is wrong. It's not society benefits more by having a heteronormative society. Comics are good when they push back against bad narratives not play into them. I think part of the reason you see so much blowback is that it's clear the writers want to be validated by Twitter not that it's good for characters to be lgbtq. As long as Twitter is influencing how much lgbtq representation there is there is going to be issues

[Astroman]

It's interesting to me when people (in general, not just on internet forums) treat human beings (as an ontological whole... not just biologically) like they are "solid objects" instead of as a complex of ongoing dynamic processes.

You’re always you, and that don’t change, and you’re always changing, and there’s nothing you can do about it. – Neil Gaiman

Constant development is the law of life, and a man who always tries to maintain his dogmas in order to appear consistent drives himself into a false position. – Mahatma Gandhi

The man who never alters his opinion is like standing water, and breeds reptiles of the mind. – William Blake

We constantly change our outlook towards life. Sometimes this is in positive ways that stem from increased wisdom - or at least a greater understanding - while sometimes it might be more negative due to trauma or situations.

As for sexuality, it takes years sometimes to truly understand what your own sexuality really is. Within that umbrella I'm also including all the personal moral/ethical/etc. aspects of sexuality. A basic one is adolescents dreaming of that one love that when they find it, it will last forever and they'll never break up, etc. etc.

Or people who when they first get married, think on some deep level, "We've made it. We're permanent now." And then reality hits hard and they realize that nothing is permanent and if a marriage lasts (traditional or not) it's because people work really hard at it and continue to change in ways that are harmonious with the other person(s)' changes.

Then there are all the people who have a kink or sexual need they keep hidden because it's not accepted who might only admit to when they find a non-judgmental partner. Many times those things are things someone might say, "I never thought that would be something you would be into?" (i.e., "that seems out of character").

And that's without things like telepathy, having strange clones of old loves, having superpowers, etc.

Now, let's throw in the changes the DoX have brought:

1) Mutants are now, effectively, immortal.

and

2) They are a now distinct nation ACTIVELY trying to separate itself from human cultures (and the cultural artifacts that comprise those cultures like, concepts of "family", "clan", "tribe", "nation", etc.).

To me, "It's out of character!" isn't a valid criticism, especially in this brave new world of DoX.

A stylistic criticism could be, "But we haven't seen those changes on the page so it's lazy." to which I would say, "No, actually it's not lazy, it's taking a more literary or even cinematic approach instead of an exposition heavy approach to narrative that is embodied in traditional comics and especially traditional television. Hickman and Co. aren't being lazy, they're just not treating us like beginning readers who need to have our hands held the whole time.

Why do I support the polyamory angle? Because it is another semiotic aspect of what is making DoX so exciting: It's pushing things into all sorts of new areas - not only within the plot but also in style of presentation, aesthetics, tone, voice - and sometimes those places are uncomfortable ("Why are the X-Men fascists?" "Why are they all screwing each other?" "They just did [X] and it's really horrible!"). It's doing what good fiction should do: allow us to explore things from all over the spectrum of existence within the art and use that as a lens to see the world in slightly, or majorly, different ways.

I still want to see a scene between the Rectangle where everyone is connected telepathically and can experience everyone's perspective at the same time. Not for the titillation of it all but because it would be truly *transhuman*, truly *mutant*. Something that is far more potent of a change from human perspectives than just "having superpowers."

[Rev9]

Why would mutants that can live forever in the prime of their lives want to settle for monogamy. How doesn't it make sense for Scogean (+Emma) when they've passed each other around for years.

By the same token ,since they are clones,why not just make a clone of yourself and sleep with yourself? Just try it coz you can ...This idea that immortality has something to do with it is absurd

[Wolverine12]

Well, like I predicted over in the Krakoan Love thread, it certainly didn't take long for someone to invoke the "Think of the children!" argument, based upon prejudices and ignorance over the choices families make.

Before someone argues that polyamory in parental relationships negatively affects the children's lives, they should maybe talk with poly couples who have raised healthy and functional adult children. You'll be surprised that reality doesn't conform to your prejudices.

Are there actual studies about this? I’d be interested in reading that.

[numberthirty]

By the same token ,since they are clones,why not just make a clone of yourself and sleep with yourself? Just try it coz you can ...This idea that immortality has something to do with it is absurd

Tend to agree.

If the entire take is "Because 'Immortal'...", why in the heck would you be messing with the same two women you have spent your life as a mortal messing with? Wouldn't it more logically go like "Makin' The Best Of This 'Immortality' Thing..." -

- "I'm Going To Give Only Female 'Non-Humanoid' Mutants A Turn This Time Around..."
- "I'm Going To Just Stay Single. It's Not Like I Won't Be Back..."

[Su_Whisterfield]

It's interesting to me when people (in general, not just on internet forums) treat human beings (as an ontological whole... not just biologically) like they are "solid objects" instead of as a complex of ongoing dynamic processes.







We constantly change our outlook towards life. Sometimes this is in positive ways that stem from increased wisdom - or at least a greater understanding - while sometimes it might be more negative due to trauma or situations.

As for sexuality, it takes years sometimes to truly understand what your own sexuality really is. Within that umbrella I'm also including all the personal moral/ethical/etc. aspects of sexuality. A basic one is adolescents dreaming of that one love that when they find it, it will last forever and they'll never break up, etc. etc.

Or people who when they first get married, think on some deep level, "We've made it. We're permanent now." And then reality hits hard and they realize that nothing is permanent and if a marriage lasts (traditional or not) it's because people work really hard at it and continue to change in ways that are harmonious with the other person(s)' changes.

Then there are all the people who have a kink or sexual need they keep hidden because it's not accepted who might only admit to when they find a non-judgmental partner. Many times those things are things someone might say, "I never thought that would be something you would be into?" (i.e., "that seems out of character").

And that's without things like telepathy, having strange clones of old loves, having superpowers, etc.

Now, let's throw in the changes the DoX have brought:

1) Mutants are now, effectively, immortal.

and

2) They are a now distinct nation ACTIVELY trying to separate itself from human cultures (and the cultural artifacts that comprise those cultures like, concepts of "family", "clan", "tribe", "nation", etc.).

To me, "It's out of character!" isn't a valid criticism, especially in this brave new world of DoX.

A stylistic criticism could be, "But we haven't seen those changes on the page so it's lazy." to which I would say, "No, actually it's not lazy, it's taking a more literary or even cinematic approach instead of an exposition heavy approach to narrative that is embodied in traditional comics and especially traditional television. Hickman and Co. aren't being lazy, they're just not treating us like beginning readers who need to have our hands held the whole time.

Why do I support the polyamory angle? Because it is another semiotic aspect of what is making DoX so exciting: It's pushing things into all sorts of new areas - not only within the plot but also in style of presentation, aesthetics, tone, voice - and sometimes those places are uncomfortable ("Why are the X-Men fascists?" "Why are they all screwing each other?" "They just did [X] and it's really horrible!"). It's doing what good fiction should do: allow us to explore things from all over the spectrum of existence within the art and use that as a lens to see the world in slightly, or majorly, different ways.

I still want to see a scene between the Rectangle where everyone is connected telepathically and can experience everyone's perspective at the same time. Not for the titillation of it all but because it would be truly *transhuman*, truly *mutant*. Something that is far more potent of a change from human perspectives than just "having superpowers."

The bolded encapsulates my feelings too.
I like things to be ‘sfnal’ (fan speak for science fictional) rather than mundane.
Relationships with telepaths should be different, doubly so for two telepaths.

[Astroman]

Tend to agree.

If the entire take is "Because 'Immortal'...", why in the heck would you be messing with the same two women you have spent your life as a mortal messing with? Wouldn't it more logically go like "Makin' The Best Of This 'Immortality' Thing..." -

- "I'm Going To Give Only Female 'Non-Humanoid' Mutants A Turn This Time Around..."
- "I'm Going To Just Stay Single. It's Not Like I Won't Be Back..."

Who says they won't (barring editorial rein-pulling)? They are still adapting to a post-human culture world. There should be lots of exploration into weird areas (not just the sexual) and individuals and groups can then decide where to keep hacking away with their metaphoric machetes or decide, "this way is too harsh, let's find a better place to continue our path."

[Astroman]

Are there actual studies about this? I’d be interested in reading that.

I wouldn't be surprised but I'm just talking about actual people I know (I live in the San Francisco Bay Area... lots of 'alternative' lifestyles out here).

One thing I am aware of, from friends who are cultural anthropologists and folklorists, is that it is hard to get people to be honest about things like this for ethnographic studies as people are afraid of outing themselves. A buddy of mine said (with regard to doing studies on the BDSM community), "It's easier to get people to admit to experiencing metaphysical or haunting phenomena than it is to get them to open up about things they are afraid others would see as perversion."

[houndsofluv]

I see some people claiming that polyamory is OOC because "these characters haven't been involved in polyamory/open relationships before" and I think you're missing the point entirely

Polyamory isn't a sexual orientation, its an interest or preference that people stumble upon by exploring or experimenting. Very different living circumstances from what these characters are used to have allowed them this space for experimentation - both the mental/emotional space and the physical space. This post outlines some of the factor rly well so lemme just quote it for truth:

Why would mutants that can live forever in the prime of their lives want to settle for monogamy. How doesn't it make sense for Scogean (+Emma) when they've passed each other around for years.

hell yeah.

And yet the most talked about. Weird contradiction.

yup lol. sex seems to unify people the world over , be it in anger, celebration, fascination ..

i hope every famous character gets in a poly so kids can be free of the monogamous brainwashing their parents are already infected with

I fully endorse this.

[Will Evans]

I fully endorse this.

Except for Wanda. No one wants that for Wanda.

[SiegePerilous02]

What Should Be An Additional Poll Option:

"It's The Least Interesting Aspect Of The Current Run..."

Indeed, the lore stuff is way more interesting and is keeping me excited.

The polyamory stuff is amusing and a breath of fresh air instead of doing more relationship melodrama, but it doesn't go beyond that for me.

[numberthirty]

Who says they won't (barring editorial rein-pulling)? They are still adapting to a post-human culture world. There should be lots of exploration into weird areas (not just the sexual) and individuals and groups can then decide where to keep hacking away with their metaphoric machetes or decide, "this way is too harsh, let's find a better place to continue our path."

The fact that three of the four that said discussion revolves around literally just came back from the dead only to go back to the same old song and dance.

[Astroman]

The fact that three of the four that said discussion revolves around literally just came back from the dead only to go back to the same old song and dance.

Except it's not quite the same old song and dance is it? Jean and Logan actually on-panel together, the "Scott in a Speedo" comment, and other (potential) aspects that have been hinted at. It's not the same melodramatic dynamics... it's like the old one through a surreal, Krakoan, lens.

And like I indicated in my longer post above, it's not just a taxonomical equation. Immortality, in conjunction with exploring non-human culture, language, religion, dish-washing, and yes: sexuality will be an interesting thing for them all to explore... and resolving tensions, desires, and preconceived notions of what is "right" is a great way to start breaking into new areas. And various characters will do it in varying ways and speeds... and it is all driven by what the authors want to explore, not the wants of us fans. I think that might be the biggest shift here: we're less in the realm of old-school genre fiction where character verisimilitude is predominant and more in a "literary fiction" realm where perhaps the characters are purposefully doing things to make the audience uncomfortable (like how the characters seems initially very different in Bret Easton Ellis' novel Imperial Bedrooms (the sequel to Less Than Zero) than they were in the original Less Than Zero.

The more DoX goes on, despite it's surface of corporate superhero funny books, the more I'm thinking that this is all more about what the creators are doing than what the characters are doing. I personally find that far more interesting, but I can understand why others might hate it.

[numberthirty]

Except it's not quite the same old song and dance is it? Jean and Logan actually on-panel together, the "Scott in a Speedo" comment, and other (potential) aspects that have been hinted at. It's not the same melodramatic dynamics... it's like the old one through a surreal, Krakoan, lens.

And like I indicated in my longer post above, it's not just a taxonomical equation. Immortality, in conjunction with exploring non-human culture, language, religion, dish-washing, and yes: sexuality will be an interesting thing for them all to explore... and resolving tensions, desires, and preconceived notions of what is "right" is a great way to start breaking into new areas. And various characters will do it in varying ways and speeds... and it is all driven by what the authors want to explore, not the wants of us fans. I think that might be the biggest shift here: we're less in the realm of old-school genre fiction where character verisimilitude is predominant and more in a "literary fiction" realm where perhaps the characters are purposefully doing things to make the audience uncomfortable (like how the characters seems initially very different in Bret Easton Ellis' novel Imperial Bedrooms (the sequel to Less Than Zero) than they were in the original Less Than Zero.

The more DoX goes on, despite it's surface of corporate superhero funny books, the more I'm thinking that this is all more about what the creators are doing than what the characters are doing. I personally find that far more interesting, but I can understand why others might hate it.

Ah, doesn't seem any more racy than the cell scene back in "X-Tinction Agenda" to me.

Like I said, same old same old.

[CGAR]

Scott and Maddie's marriage was also between consenting adults. It didn't make Scott look like an unhealthy obsessed man towards his dead girlfriend at all.

People need to stop throwing "consenting adults" argument around like it means whatever happens after that makes sense or is good.

Umm what? What does Maddie and Scott's relationship have to do with this? And yes the word CONSENTING is important here. I don't know why its so triggering for you.

These are 4 individuals who have cared about eachother for a very long time. If they want to explore and be polyamorous how is it not in character.

They are beyond labels and traditions. ( Also please note that humans actually are polyamorous. We just are stuck in a monogomous state of mind) Because we are brought up to believe that is the one true way to be happy. Which is BS.

Back to the 4 individuals at hand. Jean and Scott love eachother. Scott and Emma love eachother. Logan and Jean have love for eachother. The sexual attraction is there for some of them. Jean and Emma have a respect for eachother. Logan and Scott have a respect for eachother.

I don't understand how some of you say this is out of character. Especially for telepaths. And a person who has lived for who knows how many centuries.

If there at a point where they have an understanding and respect. I really don't see what the big deal about this is honestly. If you said it was Reed and Sue then I would understand.

But in comic canon they have all had so many different stories where they have all been with eachother. It doesnt not make sense.

"Making sense and good" is subjective to the reader. But it doesnt make it bad just because people disagree with humans being able to be polyamorous.