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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    He is the devil, do not look for reasons to be a dick.

  2. #62
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    Keep in mind that Mephisto made a deal with Miles and Otto so it is not just Peter. If OMD/BND comes to an end ( which I suspect happens in Amazing 900 with Aunt May finally being sent to “Sleep With The Fish”), the OMD/BND concept May very well be picked up in Miles book.
    Marvel with never quit Aunt May, NEVER! *cackles evilly*
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  3. #63
    Incredible Member xpyred's Avatar
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    I see a lot of people mention Ned Leeds but I don't understand why. What exactly are the clues that have led people to believe it is him?

  4. #64
    Fantastic Member Spidey_62's Avatar
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    The thing with that flashback scene to the ASM 100s period in the Absolute Carnage issue is it made it sound like Kindred was one of the people in that room when they were alive and they know everybody really intimately. I don't think Ned was in that room, he wasn't as close to people like Mary Jane or Norman Osborn like Harry or Gwen might be. The thing Kindred keeps saying is the big question isn't who, but why.

    I think it all is circling back to One More Day, all the telegraphing and references can't be just winks to fans, and judging from the types of things Spencer has been doing I'd say part of his MO on Spidey isn't discrediting anything that came before but trying to add to it, make it all fit together with the bigger picture. So that stories some may not look back on fondly are given new context in the grand scheme of things in some fashion.
    Last edited by Spidey_62; 07-16-2020 at 07:06 PM.

  5. #65
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    Marvel would sooner send MJ to Hell after Kindred burns her to ash than mess with aunt May. That said if Kindred is Gwen then he should have looked in upon Gabriel and Sarah so I don't think Kindred is her. Ned has also "died" so he doesn't qualify and he certainly doesn't have as intimate a connection as Kindred implied with Norman unless you are completely delusional. So I think Gilo is right and it's Harry Osborn.

  6. #66
    Fantastic Member Spidey_62's Avatar
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    My money's on the seemingly obvious pick of the original Harry Osborn that died in Spectacular 200. I wasn't a fan of retconning his death so he now he never died but was actually just in Europe on a trip and his death was faked by Mysterio. I think the first arc of this run splitting Peter and Spider-Man into two separate entites for a few issues was a deliberate choice that can set up the possibility of other people having "doubles" or split parts of their selves later on. I think Harry did really die in Spectacular 200 (because it's a freaking great issue and why undo it? We also know Spencer likes to redo classic deaths where he can like putting Kraven back in the grave where he should have stayed) and the Harry that's been back since One More Day (hey, One More Day, that keeps coming up during this run all sly-like!) is a separate aspect of him while Kindred is a manifestation of all of his negative attributes.

    That would bring up an interesting question of why would Harry go to hell to become Kindred? He wasn't a downright evil person like his dad, he was somebody who was torn up inside due to trying to live up to his evil legacy and he did bad stuff but ultimately rejected it in a heroic sacrifice. I mean are they that picky with going to hell? It could raise some interesting questions. Especially given what we've seen of the interaction with Norman so far where he said he was proud of him. Harry having to live in hell being hardened into an unrecognizable unscrupulous demon is the kind of thing that would make Norman Osborn proud.

    What could Gwen have done that she'd wind up in hell is the thing for me that doesn't make sense at the moment. By all intents and purposes she was nigh-perfect and every time Peter reflects on her it's with how great she was, with the only in continuity blemish being Sins Past where she slept with Peter's worst enemy, but still it was consensual and she just thought he was a good guy who was full of trauma.

    If it's Harry then what happens to the other Harry that's currently in the land of the living and why that hasn't been addressed by Kindred yet when the character seems to be obsessed with everybody but him. Thinking it can't be Harry because there's already a Harry walking around well and good can be a good bit of misdirection to take people off the scent.

    Harry resurfaced in One More Day, and we've received many hints that it's the marriage erasure that's the one thing Peter's mind is blocking from him. Mysterio was involved in "covering up" Harry's original death, Kindred and Mysterio seem to know each other pretty well as they were in hell the same time. Mysterio popped up before One More Day from hell serving a master (who Peter David was trying to intend to be Mephisto as set up even though he didn't like the idea of OMD). Kindred knows Kingpin, pretty sure they've been around each other before at least in Stern's last story with the Hobgoblin in the 80s. I bet it's all gonna come together.
    Last edited by Spidey_62; 07-16-2020 at 07:04 PM.

  7. #67
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey_62 View Post
    My money's on the seemingly obvious pick of the original Harry Osborn that died in Spectacular 200. I wasn't a fan of retconning his death so he now he never died but was actually just in Europe on a trip and his death was faked by Mysterio.....
    This is perhaps my most hated aspect of OMD (it is certainly in my top three), it diminished Harry's death from Spectacular 200 (one of the best Spidey single issue stories of all time, IMO). Damn you, Big Joe, er, I mean Mephisto, damn you!
    Last edited by Celgress; 07-16-2020 at 07:53 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey_62 View Post
    What could Gwen have done that she'd wind up in hell is the thing for me that doesn't make sense at the moment. By all intents and purposes she was nigh-perfect and every time Peter reflects on her it's with how great she was, with the only in continuity blemish being Sins Past where she slept with Peter's worst enemy, but still it was consensual and she just thought he was a good guy who was full of trauma.
    She did side with Bullitt in his anti-Spider-Man crusade and never apologized for having allied herself with a man revealed to be a white supremacist. But I'm not sure Marvel would go there? (From a storytelling perspective, Stan probably just didn't think to have Gwen come to terms with the implications, since the white supremacy angle was covered with Jonah.)

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    She did side with Bullitt in his anti-Spider-Man crusade and never apologized for having allied herself with a man revealed to be a white supremacist. But I'm not sure Marvel would go there? (From a storytelling perspective, Stan probably just didn't think to have Gwen come to terms with the implications, since the white supremacy angle was covered with Jonah.)
    I am an MJ supporter, but I do not think a stupid mistake like supporting Bullitt warrants Gwen to Hell especially after your father died). Almost all of us ( myself included) has said stupid things or thought stupid things out of anger and ( or) frustration ( being of Irish and Italian heritage it goes with the territory). But if that becomes the standard then 99.999% of the population is going to Hell with no hope for forgiveness. However, God does give us a chance to repent for our mistakes.Whether we do it not, that is a different issue.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by xpyred View Post
    I see a lot of people mention Ned Leeds but I don't understand why. What exactly are the clues that have led people to believe it is him?
    It's not air tight or anything, but the logic is this: Slott resurrected Ned Leeds during Clone Conspiracy. Spencer then used him for a few appearances, established that he had some weird memory issues none of the other clones appeared to have, then killed him off with little fanfare and no new resolution to Ned's life or complications to anyone else's. Spencer may have used Ned in this way to remind people he was alive and relevant to his story, then used his more recent death and memory gaps as a clue that something more was happening, for example being connected to Kindred.

    Or Spencer just didn't like Ned or Clone Conspiracy and wanted to stomp on them in print.
    Blue text denotes sarcasm

  11. #71
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    I am an MJ supporter, but I do not think a stupid mistake like supporting Bullitt warrants Gwen to Hell especially after your father died). Almost all of us ( myself included) has said stupid things or thought stupid things out of anger and ( or) frustration ( being of Irish and Italian heritage it goes with the territory). But if that becomes the standard then 99.999% of the population is going to Hell with no hope for forgiveness. However, God does give us a chance to repent for our mistakes.Whether we do it not, that is a different issue.
    Sadly, many people today do not understand (or want to learn about) concepts such as forgiveness, mercy, redemption, or proportional punishment. Everything is about purity of action and worse yet purity of thought.

    I agree with you, that isn't enough to send Gwen to Hell.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Sadly, many people today do not understand (or want to learn about) concepts such as forgiveness, mercy, redemption, or proportional punishment. Everything is about purity of action and worse yet purity of thought.

    I agree with you, that isn't enough to send Gwen to Hell.
    We agree 100%. I will never be one who will be accused of having “Purity of of action and especially thought.” Why? I am not that good. I also will not lie and pretend to be. God knows who is real and who is fake and you cannot hide from him.

  13. #73
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    STEP 1 - Slott revives Ned in case someone wants to play with that

    STEP 2 - Spencer comes in, already with a plan for a Betty story

    STEP 3 - Spencer decides that Ned's presence, or even Ned being alive at all, would negatively impact the ideas for Betty he already has

    STEP 4 - Spencer just kills Ned while using him to set up some other plots because it's Ned Leeds and no one is going to care or cry if he dies right after being brought back
    Quote Originally Posted by ???
    The world has changed, and so have I.

  14. #74
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    We agree 100%. I will never be one who will be accused of having “Purity of of action and especially thought.” Why? I am not that good. I also will not lie and pretend to be. God knows who is real and who is fake and you cannot hide from him.
    I'm a huge fan of Buddhism (I'm closest to being a Buddhist than anything else), Christianity, and Islam because these religions are at their core in their purest forms about redemption: the ability for even the worst among us to change if they so desire and put in the work to do so. Many people today far to quickly condemn others, often on the flimsiest of pretext. Those who hold others to an impossible standard must beware for someday they might be held to that same standard -

    "To err is human, to forgive is divine."

    But I digress, back on topic -

    If Kindred is 616 Gwen, Spencer has some explaining to do. But, hey, Spencer did a good job in-story justifying Hydra Cap so he might make such a shocking development work (Gwen in Hell). I hope it is her as such a reveal would become an iconic moment almost instantly.
    Last edited by Celgress; 07-17-2020 at 03:32 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I'm a huge fan of Buddhism (I'm closest to being a Buddhist than anything else), Christianity, and Islam because these religions are at their core in their purest forms about redemption: the ability for even the worst among us to change if they so desire and put in the work to do so. Many people today far to quickly condemn others, often on the flimsiest of pretext. Those who hold others to an impossible standard must beware for someday they might be held to that same standard -

    "To err is human, to forgive is divine."

    But I digress, back on topic -

    If Kindred is 616 Gwen, Spencer has some explaining to do. But, hey, Spencer did a good job in-story justifying Hydra Cap so he might make such a shocking development work (Gwen in Hell). I hope it is her as such a reveal would become an iconic moment almost instantly.
    I am a hard core MJ supporter, which is not anti-Gwen, Felicia or anti anyone ( except Cindy). I just feel MJ is the best match, and I always have. My problem with Gwen as Kindred ( and I gave a lot of thought to this), is Gwen was a victim both in ASM 121 and Sins Past, and the real douche behind both of these stories is Osborn, and I do not want to put Gwen on his level ( or even have one iota of sympathy for him). In fact the only reason I do not consider him as bad as Carnage ( who I classify as the worst Spider-Man villain because he has not shown one atom of decency) is Norm did love his wife so he is capable of that. I also mentioned this before but can you imagine if Gwen is Kindred and she gets Osborn on the bridge, and Peter has to make the choice to save him or not? Either option would really mess with his head and make him question everything even the “With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility” belief, and being with MJ or anyone else.

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