Amazing Spider-Man #44

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The thing about Kindred is that the character is presented as an avenging angel, and a judge. We see this numerous times in the series. Kindred has for the most part (except the guy who gets killed in place of Mysterio in ASM#24-25) does not target innocent people, and in fact defended MJ in HUNTED. It's attacked and tormented Mysterio and Mendell Storm but they are scum. Of course by bringing back Sin Eater, it is of course endangering many innocent people and putting them in harm's way. So it's not responsible with its power.

Kindred's not the same kind of mystery villain as Green Goblin/Hobgoblin who were scumbags through and through. That's why their mystery was between them and Spider-Man on page, rather than just with the reader i.e. we as a reader meet them from Spider-Man's POV and Peter's our eyes and shoulders for investigating the mystery (even if we do get occassional scenes showing the bad guys covered in shadows and silhouettes which leaves no doubt that the people behind the mask are truly bad news). Kindred by contrast the character is kind of an author-stand in for Spencer, in that it has omniscience over Peter's life and is basically manipulating stuff here and there to make stories work. So that's why Kindred's relationship has largely been with the reader and not with Spider-Man himself.

So after Spider-Man meets Kindred and learns its identity, there has to be an attempt at Peter's part to reach out and redeem that person or reason with it. Develop some bond with Kindred or the person inside the bandages. The setup isn't there for Kindred to be this pure evil being who Spider-Man can beat up and look good. That's not the tone of Kindred as a character. It's a character obsessed with sins, with morality, and with someone who wants to challenge and test Peter and make him realize stuff about himself. That's not the setup for a pure villainous character. Obviously the story will change drastically once we know who Kindred is and this is basically the half-way point to a 2-hour movie, whichever non-medium analogy you want.

So whoever Kindred is revealed to be, it has to be someone who can challenge and test Peter. And it also has to be a huge shock and reveal (even if one can guess it). That's why Gwen fits. Gwen Stacy can pose that moral challenge and test to Peter in a more primal and instinctive way than Ned and Harry can. Because Ned Leeds' death wasn't really Peter's fault, it was Kingsley's. Harry Osborn got himself killed (per Spec#200), and aside from Peter feeling guilty for not being omniscient, there's not much he can blame himself for their deaths. With Gwen though, even if you don't subscribe to the snap (which I don't) he is culpable for not telling Gwen the truth or the danger she was in with Norman Osborn as a supporting character. And if Kindred is Gwen, Peter would be invested in trying to redeem her and so on.

[Celgress]

I agree with you Revolutionary_Jack.

I think, for example, if Kindred was somehow involved with OMD they were trying to protect MJ from Peter or more exactly from Spider-Man, in their own misguided way. They think being involved with Spider-Man puts MJ and other civilians in peril due to the twisted, vanditive villains he battles.

[Ursalink]

I agree with you Revolutionary_Jack.

I think, for example, if Kindred was somehow involved with OMD they were trying to protect MJ from Peter or more exactly from Spider-Man, in their own misguided way. They think being involved with Spider-Man puts MJ and other civilians in peril due to the twisted, vanditive villains he battles.

That's quite the oldest and lamest excuse in the book. Sure, they do have a point, but when you think of it, doesn't many honest cops pass through the same? I mean, look at Gotham, its Police Department is as corrupt as the city itself. And when an honest cop tries to do something right, he and his beloved ones pay the price.

I don't know who Kindred actually is and what's its problem with Peter Parker, but it has no right to judge Peter/Spider-Man that way, when he's the one who always carries the guilty of his actions and the weight of the world over his shoulders. There are other "heroes" he might actually judge like this; like the Punisher.

[Spidey5640]

The thing about Kindred is that the character is presented as an avenging angel, and a judge. We see this numerous times in the series. Kindred has for the most part (except the guy who gets killed in place of Mysterio in ASM#24-25) does not target innocent people, and in fact defended MJ in HUNTED. It's attacked and tormented Mysterio and Mendell Storm but they are scum. Of course by bringing back Sin Eater, it is of course endangering many innocent people and putting them in harm's way. So it's not responsible with its power.

Kindred's not the same kind of mystery villain as Green Goblin/Hobgoblin who were scumbags through and through. That's why their mystery was between them and Spider-Man on page, rather than just with the reader i.e. we as a reader meet them from Spider-Man's POV and Peter's our eyes and shoulders for investigating the mystery (even if we do get occassional scenes showing the bad guys covered in shadows and silhouettes which leaves no doubt that the people behind the mask are truly bad news). Kindred by contrast the character is kind of an author-stand in for Spencer, in that it has omniscience over Peter's life and is basically manipulating stuff here and there to make stories work. So that's why Kindred's relationship has largely been with the reader and not with Spider-Man himself.

So after Spider-Man meets Kindred and learns its identity, there has to be an attempt at Peter's part to reach out and redeem that person or reason with it. Develop some bond with Kindred or the person inside the bandages. The setup isn't there for Kindred to be this pure evil being who Spider-Man can beat up and look good. That's not the tone of Kindred as a character. It's a character obsessed with sins, with morality, and with someone who wants to challenge and test Peter and make him realize stuff about himself. That's not the setup for a pure villainous character. Obviously the story will change drastically once we know who Kindred is and this is basically the half-way point to a 2-hour movie, whichever non-medium analogy you want.

So whoever Kindred is revealed to be, it has to be someone who can challenge and test Peter. And it also has to be a huge shock and reveal (even if one can guess it). That's why Gwen fits. Gwen Stacy can pose that moral challenge and test to Peter in a more primal and instinctive way than Ned and Harry can. Because Ned Leeds' death wasn't really Peter's fault, it was Kingsley's. Harry Osborn got himself killed (per Spec#200), and aside from Peter feeling guilty for not being omniscient, there's not much he can blame himself for their deaths. With Gwen though, even if you don't subscribe to the snap (which I don't) he is culpable for not telling Gwen the truth or the danger she was in with Norman Osborn as a supporting character. And if Kindred is Gwen, Peter would be invested in trying to redeem her and so on.

I don't know if Gwen will end up being Kindred, I don't think so and I certainly hope not. Consider how Marvel has treated her:

1. Grew up without her mother
2. Father killed, her believing erroneously it was Spidey
3. Had sex with Norman Osborn
4. Had two children who aged at a rapid rate
5. Was killed by Norman and/or the love of her life in her early 20's.
6. Turns out she was stalked by her creepy bio professor
7. Cloned by her creepy bio professor to be...his daughter? his wife? ugh..
8. Her corpse has a metal post driven through it by the love of her life to get DNA..
9. Her clone(s) are routinely killed or destined to hang with her creepy bio professor's clone(s)
10. Her clone reveals she knew Pete was Spidey just before she died.

and that's just what I remember off the top of my head...

If Spencer makes her Kindred, that rates up there with Hydra-Cap as one of the most disgraceful portrayals of a character in Marvel history...

[Celgress]

That's quite the oldest and lamest excuse in the book. Sure, they do have a point, but when you think of it, doesn't many honest cops pass through the same? I mean, look at Gotham, its Police Department is as corrupt as the city itself. And when an honest cop tries to do something right, he and his beloved ones pay the price.

I don't know who Kindred actually is and what's its problem with Peter Parker, but it has no right to judge Peter/Spider-Man that way, when he's the one who always carries the guilty of his actions and the weight of the world over his shoulders. There are other "heroes" he might actually judge like this; like the Punisher.

Hey, I stated it was misguided. Still, the motivation would be understandable if Kindred is 616 Gwen (as a great character once said) - "from a certain point of view".

[Ursalink]

Hey, I stated it was misguided. Still, the motivation would be understandable if Kindred is 616 Gwen (as a great character once said) - "from a certain point of view".

I would like to believe that 616's Gwen Stacy somehow survived the Clone Conspiracy, but it doesn't suit she could be Kindred. I mean, she stayed to face the Green Goblin, Hobgoblin and Jack O'Lantern and don't play the "damsel in distress" again. It simply doesn't fit that's Gwen. Previously, he said something about Norman being "his creation" or something, and how is Gwen Stacy going to be responsible for that?

[Celgress]

I would like to believe that 616's Gwen Stacy somehow survived the Clone Conspiracy, but it doesn't suit she could be Kindred. I mean, she stayed to face the Green Goblin, Hobgoblin and Jack O'Lantern and don't play the "damsel in distress" again. It simply doesn't fit that's Gwen. Previously, he said something about Norman being "his creation" or something, and how is Gwen Stacy going to be responsible for that?

I haven't been following the comics closely so I'll let someone more knowledgable answer this question. The only thing I can come up with is that Norman turned Gwen into Kindred because he destroyed her life by ending it.

[your_name_here]

I’m heavily leaning towards Gwen more and more.
Or Pete and MJs “kid” from One More Day? Somehow tarnished by Mephistos deal?

Whoever it is, it’ll basically decide if Spencer’s whole run is worth it or not. Here’s hoping.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I don't know if Gwen will end up being Kindred, I don't think so and I certainly hope not. Consider how Marvel has treated her:

1. Grew up without her mother
2. Father killed, her believing erroneously it was Spidey
3. Had sex with Norman Osborn
4. Had two children who aged at a rapid rate
5. Was killed by Norman and/or the love of her life in her early 20's.
6. Turns out she was stalked by her creepy bio professor
7. Cloned by her creepy bio professor to be...his daughter? his wife? ugh..
8. Her corpse has a metal post driven through it by the love of her life to get DNA..
9. Her clone(s) are routinely killed or destined to hang with her creepy bio professor's clone(s)
10. Her clone reveals she knew Pete was Spidey just before she died.

and that's just what I remember off the top of my head...

As someone who has read the Lee-Romita run or even the early issues of the Ditko era, I will say that Gwen did have the capacity for villainy, and certainly a streak of self-righteous vindictive cruelty that was never acknowledged by the writers or given space to have consequences for her character (which was the major reasons so many didn't take to her...there was often a dissonance from how she came across and how the story/characters treated her).

And in any case by making her Kindred, Spencer can maybe undo some of the weird post-death stuff cropped around Gwen. Like undoing Sins' Past, and the Clone Conspiracy resurrection.

If Spencer makes her Kindred, that rates up there with Hydra-Cap as one of the most disgraceful portrayals of a character in Marvel history...

Making Gwen Kindred wouldn't have the baggage that Hydra-Cap did. Unlike Steve Rogers, Gwen does have a hidden history in her canonical era, of being white supremacy adjacent.
https://www.cbr.com/spider-man-gwen-...ite-supremacy/

[Denkota]

You can also make the same case against MJ. She was rude condescending and actually threatened to hit her father in law which was incredibly insensitive considering what he had undergone.(no one had an idea at the time that he was a fake.) She slapped Ben and unfairly put additional baggage on him when Kaine was to blame. She was leading wolverine on which lead to Logan stabbing Peter and further tensions between them. She led Harry Osborn on and took advantage of him and her leaving him lead to his subsequent problems which is a far graver sin. She was interested in Jerome and almost had a affair with him. It is she who ultimately gives up her marriage to the devil instead of letting nature take its course. It's easy to point the finger of blame at fictional characters as none are flawless and cracks appear in each character's facade if you look closely enough.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I’m heavily leaning towards Gwen more and more.
Or Pete and MJs “kid” from One More Day? Somehow tarnished by Mephistos deal?

Whoever it is, it’ll basically decide if Spencer’s whole run is worth it or not. Here’s hoping.

Agreed.

You can also make the same case against MJ. She was rude condescending and actually threatened to hit her father in law which was incredibly insensitive considering what he had undergone.(no one had an idea at the time that he was a fake.) She slapped Ben and unfairly put additional baggage on him when Kaine was to blame. She was leading wolverine on which lead to Logan stabbing Peter and further tensions between them. She led Harry Osborn on and took advantage of him and her leaving him lead to his subsequent problems which is a far graver sin. She was interested in Jerome and almost had a affair with him. It is she who ultimately gives up her marriage to the devil instead of letting nature take its course. It's easy to point the finger of blame at fictional characters as none are flawless and cracks appear in each character's facade if you look closely enough.

Luke Every Word is Wrong.jpg

[Exciter]

Could Kindred be Captain George Stacy? He was wearing a badge in this issue. Maybe he’s mad at Peter because he thinks Peter caused Gwen’s death.

[wleakr]

Could Kindred be Captain George Stacy? He was wearing a badge in this issue. Maybe he’s mad at Peter because he thinks Peter caused Gwen’s death.

This is actually a good suggestion. And a much better one than trying to "force" Gwen to be the reveal (which makes no sense). Captain Stacy would at least be someone you don't expect but could be given a reason that works for his actions. The only issue is I don't think he's known enough for anyone to care if it's him, but a quick origin story could fill in that gap.

[Exciter]

This is actually a good suggestion. And a much better one than trying to "force" Gwen to be the reveal (which makes no sense). Captain Stacy would at least be someone you don't expect but could be given a reason that works for his actions. The only issue is I don't think he's known enough for anyone to care if it's him, but a quick origin story could fill in that gap.

But he was portrayed on film by Dennis Leary!

This would explain why Kindred hates Norman too.

[Celgress]

....Making Gwen Kindred wouldn't have the baggage that Hydra-Cap did. Unlike Steve Rogers, Gwen does have a hidden history in her canonical era, of being white supremacy adjacent.
https://www.cbr.com/spider-man-gwen-...ite-supremacy/

I still say this is a BS argument. A flirtation with distasteful beliefs and groups isn't enough to condemn anyone to Hell, regardless of current year culture. If Spencer goes in that direction I'll be very disappointed with his lack of creativity and his blatant virtue signaling.