What would you have done with Bucky?

[JudicatorPrime]

I have to say, Sam as Captain America felt uncomfortable to me. (Not that an African American is Cap, But because I feel African Americans are the real Americans, so they should be represented by a person who does things for the modern America, not the legacy of Post 1865 Civil War skewed America). What I’m uncomfortable about is the clash of a still unreconciled America, and a modern man. I hated the flack Sam Wilson got about “Not my Cap”. That still persists, and it upset me that in modern literature, Sam Cap cannot be represented as not being respected. I want a world where that doesn’t become an issue, and a modern man can exist without the stigma of a repressed past bubbling up.

Very well put.

I never wanted Sam to become Captain America. I knew it wouldn't be a winning proposition for him. Like the iceberg that sank the Titanic, it was the mass of ill will, hypocrisy and apathy below the surface that promised to make Sam's journey a short one. Even a blind person could see that Sam wasn't going to be Captain America for very long.

Funny thing about perception. Ours is a country that by and large sees Martin Luther King, Jr. as a great civil rights leader. Very few people see him as an American hero. They just can't connect the dots that in pursuing voting rights and equal protections under the law for everyone that Martin was actually going about the country's business, not just the civil liberties of a minority. There's a lot of that with Sam, too. Readers simply can't or won't embrace him as a great man championing the same ideals as Steve. Ideals that he no doubt formed and held firmly to long before he ever met Steve. There really is only one way to remedy that damning flaw in public perception.

The best that we can hope for with Sam is that he stops playing Robin to Captain America's Batman and becomes Nightwing at some point. The irony is that Sam was meant to be Nightwing all along. The writing regressed him. He fell in line, as you accurately put it.

Accepting the shield and the name just revealed what we all knew: between Sam and Steve there is only one great man, one great mantle. Instead of us focusing on their shared goal -- which, by the way, should be the goal of every citizen who dares call themselves an American -- it became more about Sam stepping out of his inferior position into a higher station. Colossal fail. I don't fault readers for resisting Sam as Captain America. I fault Marvel for not taking this opportunity to build up the Falcon's mantle, separate and distinct from Steve's. What the situation called for was a spin-off, e.g., from Peter Parker Spider-Man to Eddie Brock Venom. But that's not what we got. What we got was a glorified, red, what (?) and blue placeholder ... and Sam was the poorer for it.

[Midnight_v]

I have to say, Sam as Captain America felt uncomfortable to me. (Not that an African American is Cap, But because I feel African Americans are the real Americans, so they should be represented by a person who does things for the modern America, not the legacy of Post 1865 Civil War skewed America). What I’m uncomfortable about is the clash of a still unreconciled America, and a modern man. I hated the flack Sam Wilson got about “Not my Cap”. That still persists, and it upset me that in modern literature, Sam Cap cannot be represented as not being respected. I want a world where that doesn’t become an issue, and a modern man can exist without the stigma of a repressed past bubbling up.

... Sigh...
Everybody wants a finer world. In their own image of course. No slight against you but that just exists outside the realm of comics. If we want the world outside our window then those things are going to inherently bubble up because of marvels
structure. Funny thing is....

Very well put.

I never wanted Sam to become Captain America. I knew it wouldn't be a winning proposition for him. Like the iceberg that sank the Titanic, it was the mass of ill will, hypocrisy and apathy below the surface that promised to make Sam's journey a short one. Even a blind person could see that Sam wasn't going to be Captain America for very long.

Most people are apathetic towards title changes because they don't hold the role very long. I think you and I talked about that once... where you suggested that if they pull the trigger on something like that it NEEDS to be permanent.
Bucky was cap for a while too for that matter, but it wasn't as bad beacause marvel didn't try to overhaul his arrival as a part of some kind of "New Age" and the culture war wasn't roiling yet.

I personally am apathetic about sam because I was introduced to him and he wasn't very compelling.

Cap as a title has to embody the American dream. Which... right now means different things to different people.

[DrNewGod]

...going through series "Tales" via flashback where bucky was being essentially "Doc Brass" fighting
rather insane soviet threats in Cold War Russian.
Think about allll the crazy **** that happened in the U.S. comics from the 40's till now and understand that equally or DARKER threats had to be dealt with because of such a MASSIVE area controlled
along with the difficulties and inefficiencies of living under soviet totalitarian communism with everyone hiding their mistakes till it was too late. Spitballing:

Variant Molemen (chud)
Master of the World
Cults restoring/sacrificing to some minor or local gods quite successfully(some mountainous region)
The Afgan conflict. (breifly awakened for one or 2 missions)
Soviet Zombie outbreak.
Semi successful invasion of aliens.
Many... MANY... failed arms race super-soilder experiments.
A "HOLE" to another universe that that been covered up for a very long time its last guardian there dying.

There are a lot of "Tales" for The Winter Soldier that work really well because he literally has been existing in the background of the Marvel Universe for the whole time.
Therefore there's a very very RICH wealth of things to draw on similar to wolverine as someone mentioned earlier, but in a positive light.
It also makes him well-suited to be the next Shield Leader because the more clear his memory becomes to the reader they more they realize: There was LOOOT of loose ends left from the shattering
of the largest nation to ever exist. More than just real life with tones of Ak-47's and worrying about rogue nukes, but also... a WEALTH of world-threatening superhuman and supernatural threats.

More importantly he's an excellent addition to the mythos of the MU, another window into parts of marvel that the main books didn't cover, nearly every threat that the Avengers fought or the X-men fought
had to be dealt with in other places around the world too, and the other countries were causing a lot them just trying to keep up. "Escalation"...

That is an awesome proposal!

With all this talk about Sam, why not have a book about a support group for superheroes who can't get out of someone else's shadow? Call it Sidekicks-anonymous. Bucky would fit right in. Hell, throw in Dick Grayson and make it a DC/Marvel crossover event! lol

Didn't Rick Jones run something like that in Runaways?

[phantom1592]

That is an awesome proposal!

Didn't Rick Jones run something like that in Runaways?

I'm pretty sure that was for 'teenage superheroes' who couldn't make it. No sidekicking necessary

Bucky was cap for a while too for that matter, but it wasn't as bad beacause marvel didn't try to overhaul his arrival as a part of some kind of "New Age" and the culture war wasn't roiling yet.

I personally am apathetic about sam because I was introduced to him and he wasn't very compelling.

I would disagree with that. Bucky became Cap right after 'Captain America was gunned down on the courtroom stair'. Newspapers were running articles talking about how horrible that concept was. To most people Steve Rogers, Super Soldier IS Captain America. Bucky Barnes definitely suffered from 'Not my Cap' stigma too. It just wasn't seen as racial.

Sam had an uphill battle from the beginning because... A) We JUST got Steve back with the shield to immediately hand it off to another guy.... and B) one of Bucky's plot points was Buck's metal arm helped compensate for the lack of super-soldier forum and made him one of the few people alive who COULD use the shield correctly...

To hand it off to Sam countered their own JUST established continuity....

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Honestly i would've kept him as Cap but the secret avengers angle works too. I don't see him working for SHIELD or another agency but him doing favors for Nick Fury Sr makes sense. Right now i think hes fine where he's at.

Sam and Rhodey has the same issue- neither of them were built to be solo leads and no one's really cracked that code. Granted i don't think anyone's cracked that code for Iron Fist and he's actually had solos that last past issue 12.

For Sam and Rhodey, a reboot or an adaptation would help them more than just taking on a mantle. Of the two of them Sam interested me more so i can see them having an easier time with him than Rhodey.

[Midnight_v]

For Sam and Rhodey, a reboot or an adaptation would help them more than just taking on a mantle. Of the two of them Sam interested me more so i can see them having an easier time with him than Rhodey.

Warmachine... smh. There's this meme about every sucessful white heroe someone has a black sidekick or something like that. . .

When I see Rhodey often I feel the sting of that. So I see now why giving Falcon the shield was bad too. It actually CEMENTS it in peoples mind as "This guy got powers from his white friend" and that... backwards a lot but theres some annoyance in there that "oh we didn't get Ironman... " or "If only the real ironman was here" and this is why...

I wish I deeply wish that after the Ultmate Universe collapsed/secret wars ended that our the 616 got different versions ala the best versions of both chracters. I think the Ulitmate Sam Wilson is light years ahead of what we have.
Warmachine feels after awhile that he just exists as a prop for tony more than anything. idk.

The Winter Soilder is probably going to remain a more versatile more interesting character than this iteration of sam. Not just because of the movie but it sure helped get his name out there further.

I'd like to see a "What would you have done with Sam Wilson." Thread. I think i'd have killed him and replaced him with his 1610 counterpart who is just more interesting and capable in many ways.

Barring that I think he really needs a think tank to make this character work better, as well as ... a press agent some spin to make him more than a guy playing the same game as so many other "Birdmen" out there.

[Triniking1234]

That's a bit extreme. I understand your frustration, but there will just be some characters who will always play supporting or team player roles. It doesn't mean they should be killed off just because they can't get out of the lead character's shadow. Having said that, it just takes one writer's outstanding idea that actually sells books to get beyond that.

This is honestly most of the Avengers and the X-Men. Not everyone gets to be breakout stars like Black Panther and Wolverine.

So if you're fan of Nightcrawler, Hercules, Wonder Man, Tigra, Wasp, etc. you better suck it up and buy the team books.

[disillusion386]

This is honestly most of the Avengers and the X-Men. Not everyone gets to be breakout stars like Black Panther and Wolverine.

So if you're fan of Nightcrawler, Hercules, Wonder Man, Tigra, Wasp, etc. you better suck it up and buy the team books.

Yep. Even someone like Hawkeye and Black Widow, despite some pretty decent runs in the last few years and getting a lot of screen time in Avengers movies, can't sustain ongoings.

[Hypestyle]

Bucky can lead a group of Defenders at this point. non-sanctioned interventionists. cross-country, cross-planet, cross-dimension.

[JudicatorPrime]

Bucky can lead a group of Defenders at this point. non-sanctioned interventionists. cross-country, cross-planet, cross-dimension.

Winter Soldier leading the Defenders is a solid idea. Can we add Blue Marvel and Monica Rambeau to the team?

[Alan2099]

Winter Soldier leading the Defenders is a solid idea. Can we add Blue Marvel and Monica Rambeau to the team?

I'd much rather see the Defenders go back to being the Dr. Strange, Hulk, and friends group, but the idea of a Bucky on a more Marvel Knights style team isn't a bad one.

[scribbleMind]

the idea of a Bucky on a more Marvel Knights style team isn't a bad one.

That's pretty much Strikeforce.

[tliscord]

Thanks for this thread ... may need to be merged into his appreciation thread but I'm grateful its garnering some attention. Agree, Bucky has been somewhat lost since the Brubaker years. I've yet to finish reading this entire thread but know that Brubaker owned this character's revival through and through. Granted, some hit or misses through his run as Cap and his WS series but generally Ed knows this character. His recent run, Strikeforce, feels a bit forced, shoehorning Buck onto a team he's not well suited for. Best moments have been with Natasha, less so with Sam, although the Brooklyn Bridge bar scene with Steve maybe iconic. I very much liked Kyle Higgins and Rod Reis' run teaming him up with Sharon and a working relationship with Tony. That kind of continuity works for me. The redemption arc remains a good, solid theme to pursue.

A couple standouts for me include ... Nat and his WS run unfortunately unsatisfying and never truly finished. Liu's BW well showcased a "James" that no other author has captured other than Brubaker. Love to see her reprise a WS series! I'd also love to see a running mix of OG Fury and Steve, both appealing to different aspects of Bucky's persona that I think create an intriguing neurosis for Buck. Feel Coates' has underutilized him in his run on Cap but the jury's still out until that series has finished. Not really feeling his role as a leader of a team ... or on a team aka Strikeforce or Thunderbolts. This guy is best suited working in the shadows, that's his strength, and his uncomfortable nature being Cap so well documented by Brubaker really emphasizes that part of him. I too thought he, Mockingbird, and Quake might make a good covert team but never thought a "Heroes for Hire" theme appropriate or a good fit. He and Misty remain worlds apart. No one at SHIELD is really at his level, except OG Fury. Perhaps Sharon comes closest. Fury Jr is a joke. However Hill and Buck do seem to share similar approaches, mistakes, and they might be an interesting contradictory and conflicted relationship to pursue professionally. BW remains his partner despite Brubaker's sad ending. Liu proved it in her Name of the Rose run. Gotta say I'd also be interested in a pairing with Logan ... unusual dynamic and too powerful interests in Natatsha's life. I feel more confident of that story potential than the weak stuff recently with Clint. I think Rosenberg failed at his TOS series to capture just how different the two are and why teaming them up kinda silly and ridiculous. James understands more than most Natasha's motivation.

I agree with the sentiment that Buck remain peripherally associated with Cap's series. I'd continue to showcase him with Black Widow, resolve their memory and romance issues, and move forward. Time with Sharon is well spent, and adding Sam as a caring supportive friend/mentor interesting. A search and rescue for OG Fury could be a mini series waiting to happen. Time we got the old soldier back.

[jackolover]

Honestly i would've kept him as Cap but the secret avengers angle works too. I don't see him working for SHIELD or another agency but him doing favors for Nick Fury Sr makes sense. Right now i think hes fine where he's at.

Sam and Rhodey has the same issue- neither of them were built to be solo leads and no one's really cracked that code. Granted i don't think anyone's cracked that code for Iron Fist and he's actually had solos that last past issue 12.

For Sam and Rhodey, a reboot or an adaptation would help them more than just taking on a mantle. Of the two of them Sam interested me more so i can see them having an easier time with him than Rhodey.

When I think of Jim Rhodes War Machine in Dark Reign, this was an individual, who didn’t have to carry a mantle, either Iron Man, or Captain America. He was Captain America, to me. Rhodey went from one injustice to another, killing himself in the process, taking on Big Business, and the Government of the US, and he was winning. James couldn’t do that in the conventional MU before Civil War, but in the environment of Normal Osborn’s world, James Rhodes was the only man who took it head on. Rhodey was a beast.

[jackolover]

Thanks for this thread ... may need to be merged into his appreciation thread but I'm grateful its garnering some attention. Agree, Bucky has been somewhat lost since the Brubaker years. I've yet to finish reading this entire thread but know that Brubaker owned this character's revival through and through. Granted, some hit or misses through his run as Cap and his WS series but generally Ed knows this character. His recent run, Strikeforce, feels a bit forced, shoehorning Buck onto a team he's not well suited for. Best moments have been with Natasha, less so with Sam, although the Brooklyn Bridge bar scene with Steve maybe iconic. I very much liked Kyle Higgins and Rod Reis' run teaming him up with Sharon and a working relationship with Tony. That kind of continuity works for me. The redemption arc remains a good, solid theme to pursue.

A couple standouts for me include ... Nat and his WS run unfortunately unsatisfying and never truly finished. Liu's BW well showcased a "James" that no other author has captured other than Brubaker. Love to see her reprise a WS series! I'd also love to see a running mix of OG Fury and Steve, both appealing to different aspects of Bucky's persona that I think create an intriguing neurosis for Buck. Feel Coates' has underutilized him in his run on Cap but the jury's still out until that series has finished. Not really feeling his role as a leader of a team ... or on a team aka Strikeforce or Thunderbolts. This guy is best suited working in the shadows, that's his strength, and his uncomfortable nature being Cap so well documented by Brubaker really emphasizes that part of him. I too thought he, Mockingbird, and Quake might make a good covert team but never thought a "Heroes for Hire" theme appropriate or a good fit. He and Misty remain worlds apart. No one at SHIELD is really at his level, except OG Fury. Perhaps Sharon comes closest. Fury Jr is a joke. However Hill and Buck do seem to share similar approaches, mistakes, and they might be an interesting contradictory and conflicted relationship to pursue professionally. BW remains his partner despite Brubaker's sad ending. Liu proved it in her Name of the Rose run. Gotta say I'd also be interested in a pairing with Logan ... unusual dynamic and too powerful interests in Natatsha's life. I feel more confident of that story potential than the weak stuff recently with Clint. I think Rosenberg failed at his TOS series to capture just how different the two are and why teaming them up kinda silly and ridiculous. James understands more than most Natasha's motivation.

I agree with the sentiment that Buck remain peripherally associated with Cap's series. I'd continue to showcase him with Black Widow, resolve their memory and romance issues, and move forward. Time with Sharon is well spent, and adding Sam as a caring supportive friend/mentor interesting. A search and rescue for OG Fury could be a mini series waiting to happen. Time we got the old soldier back.

I would love Mockingbirds team from Heroic Age be a thing, and Winter Soldier be this peripheral last resort. I can’t picture Quake in that. Certainly James and Nat a love interest works well for me. Even if they had Maria Hill in some version of SHIELD, and she uses James as her Shadow Force., I like.

On a side note, I want to ask you some difficult questions about Winter Soldier. Has Brubaker passed the test in bringing back Bucky Barnes from the dead? By that I mean, should Brubaker have done this? Has it worked? Is the MU a better place because James has returned? Has James shown what he was to become, changing from the kid side-kick of Cap into an adult, or hasn’t James become what he should have become after the War ended? Was Brubakers move right to bring back Bucky?

Brubaker didn’t bring back Bucky. He brought back this disturbed Cold War hit-man. Did Bucky step out of the costume of the Winter Soldier, eventually?