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  1. #286
    Fantastic Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Sorry, what??
    You dont know the Phantom Stranger its ok and you are a Diana Fan...Ok...

    But speaking the reality:

    1. In Day of Vengeance we have seen that Spectre and Phantom Stranger are absolutely equal in offensive and defensive power...
    Phantom Stranger has his feats (Mayan God etc.)
    You should read about him....

    2. Stranger is around place Nr.5:
    1 Presence
    2 Elaine
    3 Michael+Lucifer
    5 Phantom Stranger

    3. Presence,Phantom Stranger,Spectre,Lucifer,Elaine,Michael are ABOVE gods like Zeus,Darkseid, so it doesnt matter if the lasso was wielded or has constrained weak "Gods" like Zeus,Hera,Darkseid etc.

    4. The "Problem" is straight forward that the Phantom Stranger is so OP, that he CANT interfere...
    If he would be allowed to interfere he could simply look at Darkseid,Zeus,Hera,Aphrodite etc. etc. and they would be whiped out of existence

    So it makes no sense, that a weak mortal like Diana, who isnt even at the level of a Darkseid can restrain a being whose powers is out of any classification like the Phantom Stranger itself..

    And the question is ridiculous:
    Phantom Stranger is logically overpowered, but
    a) Therefore he is limited-he is limited because else he could simply whipe out Gods,end the crisis etc. etc. etc. etc.
    This is the concept of him: Being more powerful than Gods, but limited to make him not omnipotent
    b) Phantom Stranger ISNT a regular
    c) Before it was like this:
    You had categories:
    I Beings who are above Gods: Spectre,Presence,Lucifer,Michael,Phantom Stranger....
    II Gods
    III Mortals like Diana,Flash,Superman....

    So if Diana can restrain Phantom Stranger,it means that Robin can also kill Darkseid etc. etc.



    Day of Vengeance...

    Spectre was amped and Phantom Stranger and Spectre were on the same level...

    Besides there were situations were the Phantom Stranger killed an Mayan God and he was durable enough to tank the magic of Spectre,Dr.Fate and Eclipso combined...

    Problem is simple that if a weak demigodess like Diana is able to restrain a being who is out of any classification like the Phantom Stranger we then also have to accept that Robin might chop Darkseid in pieces...

    The truth is simple: If we accept that a simple mortal like Diana can restrain a being who is above "Gods" like Darkseid and Zeus there are no limits and every character can do what he or she wants..

    Before it was simple, because there were categories:
    1 Untouchables like Spectre,Phantom Stranger,Lucifer,Elaine,Presence....and they were stronger than any other beings
    2 "Gods" like Zeus,Darkseid,Hera....
    3 Mortals like Superman,Diana,Flash etc.

    and no character under a certain category could defeat one of the category above (ok-with magical weapons yes), but now this is broken..



    No-it doesnt...

    Robin vs Darkseid makes even less sense because it's a human vs a God. Diana is far above human level.

    The Phanton Stranger is a plot device character. His power depends on what the writer needs for the story. And since we are talking about what we get and don't get to decide. DC has constantly stated that the Lasso is unbreakable. So you don't get to decide if stranger is or not able to break it. DC says it can not be broken. So it wasn't. As simple as that.

  2. #287
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    But speaking the reality:
    Dude, very little of anything you've been saying is rooted in reality.

    I've said Diana can't take the Stranger physically, but that doesn't seem to be the debate. The debate seems to be the lasso, which has contained bigger threats than the Stranger.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  3. #288
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    I've mostly bowed out of this thread, but I really want some answers on the Days of Vengeance thing.

    1) How is the Phantom Stranger equal to the Spectre in that story? He was able to do squat in stopping him, and got turned into a rat. That's hardly an equal. The only thing the Spectre couldn't do to him was kill him, but he in no way appeared to be near the Spectre in power.

    2) where was it established Spectre was more powerful than usual? The only thing different was that he didn't have a host and Eclipso used that to manipulate him.

  4. #289
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Been a while since I read that story but if I remember right it wasn't that the Spectre was more powerful, it was that it had less restraint.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  5. #290
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    That is what I remember as well, but Masterff keeps saying Spectre was amped, so I was hoping for perhaps a scan or issue number to reference on that.

  6. #291
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    You dont decide who is immortal and who not...And fact is only two beings are immortal: Presence and Spectre

    Gods,villains,new gods,heroes,villains...are classificable...Spectre,Presence,Michael,Lucifer,E laine,Phantom Stranger are to powerful to put in classes..
    This was also said by DC...
    You are correct. I don't, and neither do you. DC defines it.

    They have a 'council of immortals,' for example. DC therefore has defined in clear terms that there are more immortals than just the two you prefer.

    DC comics, the owners of such characters as Wonder Woman, Phantom Stranger, The Presence, Zeus, etc., have many characters that *they* (not you, not me) have declared to be immortal.

    I will again request a citation from DC comics that states unequivocably that only the Presence and the Phantom Stranger are considered immortal in the DCU.


    Day of Vengeance etc. made him COMPLETELY equal to the Spectre...
    One six issue mini-series from 15 years ago isn't much to go on, but Spectre turned Phantom Stranger into a mouse. Been awhile since I read it, but I remember he was trapped as a mouse, unable to change himself back and was being safeguarded by Detective Chimp. Shadowpact changed him back.

    Hardly sounds omnipotent, let alone Spectre's equal.

    He was also shown to be able to kill Mayan Gods etc.
    Wonder Woman has killed and/or defeated gods and demi-gods as well. The lasso works on gods (see Perez's run)

    If you accept that a simple mortal like Diana can restrain the Phantom Stranger who is classified as being superior to "Gods" like Zeus,Hera,Darkseid etc. than you also have to accept that Robin chops Darkseid in half...
    I don't accept that Diana is a simple mortal by any stretch of the imagination. I haven't seen anyone but you call her that.

    She is an immortal demi-god who has reached apotheosis twice to become a full-god herself. She has used her lasso to tow the sun as well as tow the earth, restrain gods, free souls and bind 3 billion people.

    Please stop trying to re-define the character into something she is not - a 'simple mortal.' That simply isn't true and her history and feats support this.

    Actually I even see Robin chopping Darkseid in half as more realistic, since the power difference of Darkseid and Robin is smaller than Phantom Stranger vs Diana..
    Since you base the majority of your argument on a 15 year old mini-series, in a book that is not her own title, Wonder Woman defeated the Phantom Stranger with the lasso. Therefore, by your own standards (and DC canon), she is clearly closer in power to the Stranger than Robin is to Darkseid.

  7. #292
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Actually quite a few immortals at DC now I think about it.

    Diana and all the Amazons, obviously. Vandal Savage. The Immortal Man. Resurrection Man (if he's a distinct character from the Immortal Man post-52?). The Guardians of Oa. Jason Blood and Madam Xanadu, perhaps, though both might just be extremely long lived (never been clear to me). Then all the beings from the god sphere, including the gods, angels, demons, and demigods of Greek, Norse, Egyptian, Christian, Hindu, and Islamic religions, plus all the other earth-based religions and all the gods of other planets, including the likes of the Flamebird, Nightwing and Rao from Kryptonian myth, the Seven Devils of Thanagar, etc. Then there's the cosmic manifestations like Kismet or Imperiex.

    I assume Nix Uotan is immortal, since he's a Monitor.

    Can we count the Hawks as immortal? I don't, since they just die and reincarnate, but I figure an argument could be made for it if one were determined to do so. Ra's al Ghul is immortal-ish.

    I only read the first issue of the Immortal Men book from the New Age of Heroes line but there's several immortal characters there. I can't quite remember but I want to say the new Neon the Unknown from New Age was immortal too.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  8. #293

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I really don't know how to explain it in plainer terms, but I'll try a last time.

    Okay. First off. There is *no such thing* as "over powered." This entire concept you're arguing about? It's not real. There are only antagonists who do not adequately challenge the protagonist. So Diana is only "over powered" if she only ever fights threats that can not hurt or defeat her. Which doesn't happen; Diana's rogues are all dangerous to her physically, mentally, emotionally, or some combination of the three. If the protagonist can be hurt/challenged by the threat, then the protagonist is not over powered. Therefore, Diana is not over powered.

    This discussion should have ended with a simple "Can Diana's villains hurt her? Yes, so she's not OP."

    So this entire argument is a fool's errand in the first place (and I'm a fool too, for still posting in it). Seriously, study creative writing, you'll learn that "over powered" is not a thing, there's simply underwhelming antagonist threats. The entire concept of "over powered" is a f*cking illusion, stop buying into it.

    As for the Presence, I didn't say anything even relatively close to "Diana can fight the Presence" and I don't think anyone else has either. What I *did* say is that I dislike the Presence because it's an obvious stand in for the christian god and people end up treating it like their religion is on the comic book page; they can't separate it from their faith and we end up in ridiculous "my god is better than your god" discussions like this.

    As for the Stranger....the fact that he's in this discussion at all boggles my mind. What a Z-list character to bring into the debate! I mean, if it were the Spectre I could understand it, that guy at least matters and has feats beyond "I look at stuff and know things." But the Stranger? He's just a seldom-used exposition machine meant to dump info for the readers and occasionally provide a hand-wave dues ex machina. He is above the physical abilities of mortals and blessed with knowledge that transcends the timeline, but is seemingly limited to the singular earth he exists on, which makes him less powerful than everything that exists in the god sphere of the multiverse map (our current authority on DC cosmology). Even if we accept that the Presence is all powerful, his agents are not, otherwise the Spectre would never be imprisoned, Zauriel would have done all the League's work for them and ended crime forever, etc. At best we can place the Stranger in the realm of the demigods; beings limited to their singular earth but with great power derived from higher dimensional sources.

    Guess who else is a demigod limited to a single earth but with great power derived from higher sources? Diana. Now, the Stranger's role is to watch but not interfere and he's durable enough to do that, and I doubt Diana could take him down physically (though his inability to act means he can't defeat her either). But that doesn't seem to be the debate; the debate seems to be about the lasso and whether it works on him. The lasso was forged by a actual god, in the god sphere (Olympus to be precise), and works on actual, literal gods, so the idea that it wouldn't work on a demigod-esque character like the Stranger is just fallacy. The Golden Perfect works on Darkseid, so it'll work on anything short of a Monitor (and that includes the Stranger).

    Diana is a demigod who fights gods and beings with god-like power, so she's not over powered. The Stranger falls into that category. So what's the real debate here? It's just "my god is better than your god." The entire premise of your argument is flawed. Diana cannot defeat the Stranger but is still OP...but the Stranger who is more powerful than the OP heroine *isn't* OP? That doesn't make any sense.

    If your argument is just "I don't like powerful characters" then Diana, Clark, Barry, Hal, Thor, Hulk, Silver Surfer, the FF as a collective whole, and half the X-Men are not for you and I question why you're here. Instead of wanting to change Diana to fit your sensibilities and screw over all of us who enjoy powerful characters, try reading Aquaman, Spider-Man, or Daredevil. Avoid Batman; if you think Diana is OP you'll really hate Batman.
    So according to you OP characters don't exist but Batman is OP. Your obsessive hatred of him strikes again, lol this thread isn't even about him and you still found a way to bring him up in order to bash him. I'll never understand how someone can hate a fictional character so much but unlike you I know this thread isn't about Batman so I'll leave it at that.

  9. #294
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    So according to you OP characters don't exist but Batman is OP. Your obsessive hatred of him strikes again, lol this thread isn't even about him and you still found a way to bring him up in order to bash him. I'll never understand how someone can hate a fictional character so much but unlike you I know this thread isn't about Batman so I'll leave it at that.
    When he's punching above his weight class, he is being depicted as OP. Superman and Wonder Woman being all powerful but having all powerful villains and cerebral challenges does not make them OP. Neither does Batman when he pulls something out of his miraculous belt to escape a death trap from one of his villains or crack an insane scheme from the Joker's mind. Or when he bluffs Darkseid. Wearing a mecha suit to punch out Darkseid or somehow managing to arrest Cheetah (who fights Wonder Woman)? That is plot stupidity that ends up harming Batman's appeal as well.

    From what I've seen Ascended likes some versions of Batman just fine, he doesn't have to put it in a disclaimer in every post. Modern Batman just straight up sucks, but saying that doesn't mean one hates Batman as a whole. He's been around 80 years, not every version of him is going to appeal to everyone.

  10. #295
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    So according to you OP characters don't exist but Batman is OP. Your obsessive hatred of him strikes again, lol this thread isn't even about him and you still found a way to bring him up in order to bash him. I'll never understand how someone can hate a fictional character so much but unlike you I know this thread isn't about Batman so I'll leave it at that.
    Actually, that was meant to show how ridiculous the concept of "OP" is, and how it's nothing more than an illusion crafted by idiot writers and bought into by readers who should know better. Batman is actually a great example of how "over powered" doesn't actually exist and it's simply a matter of unbalanced/poor writing. And yes, if someone thinks Diana is over powered because of her feats, well they're wrong because there is no such thing as OP, but if they believe it's real and take issue with Diana for it, then by their own rules, they should be taking issue with the Batgod.

    And this entire conversation has ended up revolving around a barely used Z-list plot device character who's entire gig is "I watch people and know things" and the Stranger has no place in a discussion about Diana's power levels either. If we have to read several pages comparing Diana and the Stranger, who barely belong in the same conversation together, then I can take one tiny little well deserved shot at the Batgod.

    And Siege is correct; just last week or so I replied about the Batman thing and made clear my issues are with the modern Batgod and the impact it has on the rest of the DC roster, not Batman as a whole. I love Batman, it's the Batgod I take issue with.
    Last edited by Ascended; 07-31-2020 at 08:19 AM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  11. #296
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    Madam Xanadu was shown to have become immortal in a solo miniseries, although I have no idea if it is considered canon at this point. She also wasn't killed by the Spectre, presumably because of her immortal status, during the Day of Vengeance event, instead being blinded by him.

  12. #297
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Xanadu was in that Demon Knights series if I remember correctly, so she was at the very least long lived in the New52, if not straight up immortal. Not sure what the current standing is.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

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