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  1. #136
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Its PURE LOGIC!!

    Presence is the only true god, who is OMNIPOTENT
    Michael,Lucifer and Elaine are 99% OMNIPOTENT (Michael and Lucifer need each other)
    Spectre
    Phantom Stranger

    Its not like Greek "GODS" who arent Omnipotent, Presence is the real god, who is omnipotent and can delete,create etc. NO LIMITS
    Michael and Lucifer have only the limit that they need each other to create
    I dont know if Elaine has limits

    Spectre is limitless, the only ones who are above him are PRESENCE,Michael-Lucifer and Elaine.

    But in REALITY Michael,Lucifer,Elaine,Spectre etc. are able to defeat etc. the Lasso (if the Presence doesnt decide otherwise).

    3. Darkseid is/should be stronger than GREEK GODS and rest of NEW GODS

    4. Gods is also difficult, sinde Presence is the only real god and he and Spectre,Phantom Stranger,Lucifer-Michael...are and should be much stronger than "gods" like Darkseid, Zeus.....

    NO!!!

    Who says that its UNBREAKABLE? WHO says that its able to make anybody tell the TRUTH???

    It ISNT!!!!

    There is only one being in DC Universe who decides what is real and this is PRESENCE!!!!!!

    Presence makes the rule for EVERYTHING!!!!!
    Presence can create,delete,give powers to, change powers etc. He is LIMITLESS,OMNIPOTENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Lucifer,Elaine,Michael,Presence,Spectre and even Phantom Stranger are MUCH ABOVE the power of the Lasso....

    WW beating Phantom Stranger etc. not-since the Power of Presence,Spectre etc. just much over Greek Gods Power and over Darkseids etc.

    The other stuff might be ok, even its like:
    WW is stronger than male members of JL COMBINED,WW is smarter than male members of JL COMBINED..

    But the scene with Phantom Stranger and Presence is OP!!!!

    1. PRESENCE is OMNIPOTENT,OMNIPRESENT etc.
    This means!!!!:
    He just could have said: NO, I dont want that the Phantom Stranger says the truth!!!!!
    And it wouldnt have worked!!!

    2. Phantom Strangers existence was wished by the PRESENCE!!!
    Presence Wish is UNBREAKABLE!! He can do what he wants!

    Look at the time when Spectre destroyed Darkseid...Darkseid came to life again, because its Presence will that Darkseid exits and dont get killed by Spectre!!!

    Yes Spectre is more powerful than Phantom Stranger, but it DOESNT MATTER, since we are talking here about the top top top players.
    The only more powerful beings in WHOLE DC are:
    -Presence
    -Elaine
    -Michael and Lucifer

    So SPECTRE is (probably) the 5. most powerful being in the DC UNIVERSE

    3. If you are connected to the Presence its more than enough to SURPASS the Greek Gods etc.

    So it shouldnt have worked because of 2 things:
    a) Phantom Stranger should be more powerful than even Greek Gods like Zeus etc.
    b) Its Presence wish that Phantom Stranger exists etc. so she CLEARLY does something what the OMNIPOTENT GOD doesnt want
    Okay, so Presence is the most powerful and can wish his subjects to be almost as powerful as he is, but as such he can also limit their powers.

    The question here is whether Spectre and Phantom Stranger are really that powerful, or Presence decided that they shouldn't be that powerful or that they should have certain weaknesses.

    You said Spectre killed Darkseid so it sounds like he is that powerful, and Darkseid is stronger than Greek Gods from what I've seen since they're affected by how many people worship them, but how about Phantom Stranger? Is he as strong as the Spectre or is he far weaker?

    Follow up question would be, as shown in the comics, have they been able to reject the Lasso of Truth before in canon, or is this their first confrontation with the Lasso?

    If I understand correctly, your argument was because the Lasso was created by Greek Gods, who are far weaker, then they shouldn't be able to affect the Presence's subjects like Phantom Stranger? It is logical. So for me, it's back to the weakness question above. Maybe they're created with a weakness against the lasso?

    Also, keep in mind, the current Phantom Stranger who was lassoed by Diana is Judas Iscariot, who's created way later than the Greek Gods and the Amazons, even though he's older than Diana and the Lasso. I don't know when the original Phantom Stranger was created or for what purpose, but the current one is basically a prisoner in debt so for me it makes sense that he's not as strong as classic Phantom Stranger.

  2. #137
    Fantastic Member enish's Avatar
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    The denial is strong with this one.

    Superman has always been written as the most-insertwhateveryouwant of them all.
    Always stronger than said character whose primary feature is that particular power.

    Superman is the one that has always been portrayed as OP.

    The fanboy attitude clouds some people’s judgement here.

    For once in a lifetime, WW is shown the way it should be and it hurts the Superman toxic fanboy base (not all of them, a portion of the fan base okay? ».

    There are countless of times where Supes in shown doing things only HE could do and people find it normal.

    Let our Wonder Woman shine for once. It won’t last because some writer will always come back undoing some of Diana’s feats by making Superman the best in everything again.

    Be patient.

  3. #138
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    I'm not talking about him punching above his weight and having PIS feats, when he was named one of the 2 smartest people on Earth people predictably flipped out.

    How is him being one of the smartest men on Earth above his weight class? How does it make him OP? It's not like high intelligence isn't a big part of his character, I'd understand if it was someone like Green Arrow who while not being stupid isn't known for his great mind. But people were pissed and don't think he should even be among the top 25 smartest people on Earth.

    So as long as he isn't dodging Omega Beams and flipping Kalibak who cares if he's the 2nd smartest man in the world, knows 127 different martial arts, can bench press 1,000lbs, etc as you say with Wonder Woman and Superman he shouldn't have to be weakened just because some writers are lazy.
    I didn't say his intellect made him OP, I said the Omega Beam and Kalibak stuff did, because it's stupid and undermines the point of the character.

    His intellect shouldn't draw much criticism, but we still do have his intellect being hyped up and that of others' being dumbed down to make him seem like the smartest person in the room. Like In JL: Doom where Superman offered to move the Earth out of the way of a meteor or whatever, and Batman basically called him an idiot. No way would Clark be that stupid, but they just had to give Bruce a line that showed he was smarter to justify him being there. Which was a lazy way to display his intellect.

    Batman is deified on certain corners of the internet the same way Wonder Woman supposedly is here. These type of characters just attract that kind of fan mentality no matter who they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by enish View Post
    Some people have a short memory here.


    I don’t exactly remember the exact issue, but there was this particular « else world? » story from Batman/Superman some years ago where Superman just killed Diana like she was some pathetic rag doll. He killed her with her own lasso after breaking her bracers and beating the hell out of her.

    She was treated so bad then.

    She had a black starry outfit.

    I just can’t get past the double standard here. It’s okay for almost all the other heroes to shine but not for Wonder Woman?

    She was designed to be the exact equal of Superman but she was rarely shown to be. The only few times it happened, some were fast to jump on the « She’s too OP » bandwagon.

    Come, just get over it. WW is a top dog. Just like Superman.
    We remember it, but I don't think anybody among the three fanbases really cares about that story so its impact is minimal.

    It certainly sucks, but it's not like Superman fans are eager to hold it over her head from what I've seen.

  4. #139
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    I was able to find it. So Diana and Cheetah are lower on the list.

    That list is all messed up too. Based on feats alone God speed and Black Racer are above Superman. Superman shouldn't be that high on the list to begin with considering his more memorable races against Barry and Wally. Diana's explanation for her speed talents comes across as misinformed; She knows the mechanics of running better than a flash? She got her speed from Hermes, that's it, that's all Josh Williamson had to say.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post

    WRONG!!!!!!

    Your comparison makes no sense:

    1. PRESENCE is OMNIPOTENT,OMNIPRESENT etc.
    This means!!!!:
    He just could have said: NO, I dont want that the Phantom Stranger says the truth!!!!!
    And it wouldnt have worked!!!

    2. Phantom Strangers existence was wished by the PRESENCE!!!
    Presence Wish is UNBREAKABLE!! He can do what he wants!

    Look at the time when Spectre destroyed Darkseid...Darkseid came to life again, because its Presence will that Darkseid exits and dont get killed by Spectre!!!

    Yes Spectre is more powerful than Phantom Stranger, but it DOESNT MATTER, since we are talking here about the top top top players.
    The only more powerful beings in WHOLE DC are:
    -Presence
    -Elaine
    -Michael and Lucifer

    So SPECTRE is (probably) the 5. most powerful being in the DC UNIVERSE

    3. If you are connected to the Presence its more than enough to SURPASS the Greek Gods etc.

    So it shouldnt have worked because of 2 things:
    a) Phantom Stranger should be more powerful than even Greek Gods like Zeus etc.
    b) Its Presence wish that Phantom Stranger exists etc. so she CLEARLY does something what the OMNIPOTENT GOD doesnt want
    1) What the Presence is doesn't matter. We are talking about the Phantom Stranger. His power comes from the Presence, but I don't see any evidence it is unlimited. Again, The Phantom Stranger is not The Presence.

    2) The Presence can indeed do what it wants. The Phantom Stranger, again, is not the Presence and probably does have limits to his ability. So Wonder Woman used the lasso on Phantom Stranger, and clearly, the Presence did not take direct action to stop it. So what we are talking about its the Phantom Stranger's power. Not The Presence, not Lucifer, not Michael, not Elaine and not the Spectre. The top players, as you put it, don't matter here.

    3) Again, Galactus is extremely powerful in the Marvel universe. The Silver Surfer was empowered by him, but was not powerful enough to fight Thanos, who likewise could barely scratch Galactus. Just because The Presence empowers someone doesn't make them equal. Michael and Lucifer are more powerful than The Spectre who is more powerful than Phantom Stranger who is more powerful than Zauriel. Again, we see that pretty clearly when Phantom Stranger wasn't able to stop The Spectre's rampage in Days of Vengeance, so why didn't the Presence power him up then?

    The way I see it, you can look at it two different ways. Either Phantom Stranger does have limits to his powers, or he is a literal deus ex machina who succeeds or fails at the Presence's whim. Since you seem to ascribe the the latter, than his failures must have been allowed to happen by the Presence. So, he wasn't allowed to beat the Spectre in Days of Vengeance, and likewise, the Presence allowed Wonder Woman to use the lasso on him in recent comics. Which seems nonsensical, but maybe it is all part of The Presence's plan or whatever.

  6. #141
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post

    1. Power Girl is STRONGER than WW

    4. Gods is also difficult, sinde Presence is the only real god and he and Spectre,Phantom Stranger,Lucifer-Michael...are and should be much stronger than "gods" like Darkseid, Zeus.....



    NO!!!

    Who says that its UNBREAKABLE? WHO says that its able to make anybody tell the TRUTH???

    It ISNT!!!!


    Superman,Batman and others best moments are LOGICAL...

    WW beating Phantom Stranger etc. not-since the Power of Presence,Spectre etc. just much over Greek Gods Power and over Darkseids etc.


    Ridiculous:

    The other stuff might be ok, even its like:
    WW is stronger than male members of JL COMBINED,WW is smarter than male members of JL COMBINED..

    But the scene with Phantom Stranger and Presence is OP!!!!
    Powergirl is in fact not stronger than Wonder Woman, present me with feats or you're wrong.

    That's not how it works. EVERYSINGLE religion in DC is real. Greek, Norse, Shinto, Hindu, New, Old, etc... its all real. The Presence is the most powerful being in DC he created it all (no wait they changed that again, Perpentula created everything). Getting butt hurt isn't helping you. pre- Nu52 DC Ares isn't a push over, on feats alone he can go toe to toe with Darkseid; same with DC Zeus.

    The LASSO OF TRUTH, can't force people to tell the TRUTH?! you hear yourself? EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. the lasso is used we are reminded of its indestructability. Made by Hephaestus? Blessed to hold the Flames of Truth by Hestia? Its indestructible, infinitely elastic, and infinitely long. It holds magic god fire and can channel Zeus's lightning through it.

    Superman beat Darkseid in Grant Morrison's Multiversity by singing, Batman SHOT Darkseid with a literal magic bullet. Superman is the pin that holds the DC Multiverse together, Batman has an entire "DARK" multiverse dedicated to him. Wonder Woman lifting a rock and showing an aptitude for leadership, that she has been trained to have since birth cause she is a PRINCESS, is suddenly a step too far and an entire thread about her being "OP" is made.

    The EARTH >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a rock covering a cave.
    Hey remember the time Superman and Wonder Woman lifted ETERNITY? I do. Remember when Wonder Woman broke Kronos's scepter, the one that held the powers of creation and destruction on a universal scale? I do. Remember when Wonder Woman blocked millions of tiny god shards from the shattered god that moved across galaxies in seconds and all converged at one point at the same time? I do.

    The "fight" between Diana and Stranger was all of three panels. Diana hit Stranger twice, which didn't even harm Stranger and she was chastised for. She then tied him in the lasso and blasted him with Zeus's lightning; lightning that can kill elder Gods, harm multiverse level beings (see the shattered god), harm sky fathers (like Pele), and was 1/3 of the power responsible for splitting the Source.

    Diana has powerful equipment and extra powers like Zeus's lightning and Hecate's magic. The lasso has always been powerful, actually its been downgraded since its creation. She, herself is not OP.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    injustice WW is a terribly writen character.

    She cut sm's neck with her magic tiara, we know her gear is powerful and sm is not the most durable hero against magic. She hasn't defeated sm in most of their battles. And what's wrong with WW being as strong as him? Sure she has weapons, while he has ice breath, x ray and heat vision that she doesn't have.
    Ww:Empathy, allows you to detect emotions and ignore illusions. he can talk to all kinds of animals, it seems useless but in dc there are animals capable of killing gods. enhanced senses. physical statistics level superman (superman is slightly higher). expert in all kinds of combat. magic weapons. without weaknesses. but for you (and the rest of the ww fans), all that is not enough, you also want him to be physically equal to superman. What do you think if in exchange for that superman level strength. ww will have a kryptonite type weakness (her simple presence will bring her to her knees) a red sun type (she will lose her powers in minutes) and another magic type (she will be useless against her). superman will lose all his weaknesses, he will be an expert in combat and will have weapons (saved) made with one of ww's weaknesses.
    Last edited by NaVi; 07-18-2020 at 09:20 AM.

  8. #143
    Spectacular Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    Ww:Empathy, allows you to detect emotions and ignore illusions. he can talk to all kinds of animals, it seems useless but in dc there are animals capable of killing gods. enhanced senses. physical statistics level superman (superman is slightly higher). expert in all kinds of combat. magic weapons. without weaknesses. but for you (and the rest of the ww fans), all that is not enough, you also want him to be physically equal to superman. What do you think if in exchange for that superman level strength. ww will have a kryptonite type weakness (her simple presence will bring her to her knees) a red sun type (she will lose her powers in minutes) and another magic type (she will be useless against her). superman will lose all his weaknesses, he will be an expert in combat and will have weapons (saved) made with one of ww's weaknesses.

    WW being equal to SM in strength doesn't mean she needs to have the same type of weakness. And there is no such thing as OP. Any hero of any power level will always have difficult challenge to face, if the writer has enough vision to write it. Superman, Hulk, Thor etc are very powerful, and mamy writers still find ways to challenge them. WW regularly fights gods, demigods, superpowerful magic users. So there are plent of beings in her verse that can challenge her and push her to the limits like it happens with Superman, Hulk etc.

  9. #144
    Spectacular Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Its NOT double standart:

    1. The story with Phantom Stranger is IMPOSSIBLE....
    And ITS NOT!!!!!! because WW did it, but its because it should be IMPOSSIBLE!!!!

    Darkseid is MUCH STRONGER!!!! than Diana and I would even say its OP when Darkseid defeats Phantom Stranger!!!

    ITS NOT DOUBLE STANDARD if you say that it should be impossible for ALL DC CHARACTERS with few exceptions like Presence,Elaine,Michael and Lucifer,Spectre...

    2. Its different:
    Sorry, but in the links which I posted it was:

    WW is stronger than the male members of JL TOGETHER,
    The male members want to use brutal strength to solve a situation while clever WW uses her brain
    Batman, Mister contingency plan for EVERYTHING doesnt know what/who Tartarus is and has to rely on WW

    Its not double Standard, she looked stronger and more clever than the male members TOGETHER and even outperformed the male members in their prime categories:

    -STRONGER than Superman and Aquaman
    -BETTER INFORMATIONS than Batman
    -USING THE GREEN LANTERN DIRECTORY while GL says that there is no time for it



    Its SIMPLE: Cassie was Zeus daughter in Pre-Flashpoint, then in NEW52 it was changed to Diana becoming Zeus daughter, which also added NOTHING!!!!! to Diana and instead only "harmed" Cassie.

    Jason being "stronger" more "powerful" and making Diana "taking a backseat" is much much less important for me than Diana becoming Zeus daughter and Cassie Zeus granddaughter.

    If you say that Jasons role "harmed" Diana, I say that the change of Zeus becoming Dianas father and Cassie only granddaughter "harmed" Cassie.



    EXTREMELY ridiculous question:
    -Power Girl was never shown to lift something which Superman and Aquaman COULDNT LIFT TOGETHER
    -Power Girl was never shown to "defeat" Phantom Stranger and talk to the Presence
    -Power Girl was never shown to "outsmart" the male members of JL
    .
    .
    .

    Its ridiculous:
    If we take this JL showings together, than WW is SMARTER,STRONGER than the male members of JL together and she is even so great to "defeat" Phantom Stranger...

    Power Girl has GREAT FEATS, but this here gives more the Impression that Wonder Woman is smarter, stronger than the males combined and does even something what is Impossible.
    So Superman,Batman,Flash,Aquaman...can go home, because WW handles it on her own...
    Please. How many times Superman and batman have been shown to be able to handle it all on their own, making the whole jl useless? Many, many times actually. And i didn't see you making threads about it.

    Wonder Woman is stronger than pg. Feats are in WW's favor.

    The lasso is indeed unbreakable, and it has the power to reveal the truth. These 2 things are constantly being talked about in the comics when the lasso is involved.

    Based on feats. Pre 52 Ares has all the feats needed to go toe to toe with Darkseid. same with Zeus. And rebirth darkseid only won because he was absorbing zeus's energy without him knowing. Darkseid has also been confronted by Superman in one on one fights many times, and Superman has even been able to win more than once. WW has also been able to fight darkseid one on one. Conclusion, darkseid isn't always portrayed as this mighty god way above any jl member level. On the contrary, darkseid has more jobbing moments than some people think.

  10. #145
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    As DC Comics themselves have stated, Wonder Woman is "Superheroine Number 1!"!!

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    WW being equal to SM in strength doesn't mean she needs to have the same type of weakness. And there is no such thing as OP. Any hero of any power level will always have difficult challenge to face, if the writer has enough vision to write it. Superman, Hulk, Thor etc are very powerful, and mamy writers still find ways to challenge them. WW regularly fights gods, demigods, superpowerful magic users. So there are plent of beings in her verse that can challenge her and push her to the limits like it happens with Superman, Hulk etc.
    so for you ww has to be as strong as superman while she is a much better fighter, and she has no weaknesses. Well, for my superman he has to be 10 stronger, without any weakness and a much better fighter than ww and all the Amazons together. after all he also fights against gods and does so without weapons. Superman is the strongest, he is from day one, because he was created with that idea.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The only one that's beaten her is Power Girl.
    When did this happen?

  13. #148
    Spectacular Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    so for you ww has to be as strong as superman while she is a much better fighter, and she has no weaknesses. Well, for my superman he has to be 10 stronger, without any weakness and a much better fighter than ww and all the Amazons together. after all he also fights against gods and does so without weapons. Superman is the strongest, he is from day one, because he was created with that idea.

    Fine, that is your opinion. I think WW should be as strong as SM. And that's the idea that her creator had in mind since day one.

  14. #149
    Spectacular Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    When did this happen?
    As far as i know. They only had one full fight during Post Crisis, and Diana one.

  15. #150
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Why isn't ONE of DIANA'S POWERS speaking in ALL CAPS?! Like WE should SEE them, ..in mid-AIR!!!

    THEN, ask ME, if she's OVER-powered!!!!!

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