Wonder Woman OP??

[Mel Dyer]

There's usually a stinky context to questions about appropriate power-levels for Wonder Woman. We ask if Superman is too powerful, because his feats of strength and power are seemingly incomparable, even in the crayola-color would of comic superheroes. When it comes to Wonder Woman, we are almost always asking if she's too powerful, compared to Superman, ..even when Big Blue's name isn't mentioned.

What is that about?

[Zahina]

Simply put far too many characters are way overpowered in the DC Universe. From Superman, The Flash and Wonder Woman, and it seems that many want them to stay that way. I think that there should be limitations to characters or that some should have to struggle and barely pull out a win. It makes stories far more interesting than reading about a bunch of mary and gary sue's who win effortlessly. Characters should be humbled sometimes, they should get defeated sometimes, not everything should be a cakewalk or a win that came out of nowhere. It seems some want Diana to be mary sue, to beat any and everybody; it not by herself then with her lasso. And if she doesn't or she isn't perfect then it's sexism. Wonder Woman is not above criticism nor is it a crime if she loses a fight, neither is Superman or Flash. But because they are so OP any bad showing in a fight is decried as jobbing or bad writing. All-powerful characters are boring too read and the writer is forced to come up with evermore bigger threats that border on or surpass the ridiculous. DC needs to scale back the power levels of many characters but they won't and many don't want them to, or not their favorites at least.

Do you think that Wonder Woman and the Lasso of truth are too powerful?

[Mel Dyer]

Do you think that Wonder Woman and the Lasso of truth are too powerful?

Does Superman's heat vision, super-robot army, Phantom Zone projector, miniature city of alien scientists, similarly-powered, sex-crazed, psychotic alien fangirl...Maxima and stuff ..make him too powerful? Superman is way, wa-aaayy more powerful, than...like almost everybody else?! Sure, he gets these questions, but doesn't get them for the same reason. He gets them, because his power seemingly has no limits or anything we can compare it to.

But, ..Wonder Woman? It's more like a traffic stop, when Wonder Woman gets this question. It's as if we feel compelled to pull her over...correct her, check her, remind her of her place, in things. "Isn't Wonder Woman, a little too powerful in this scene/movie/cartoon/thing? She's not THAT powerful, right?"

C'mon, man. She can't be...right?

I know this doesn't sound like woman-hatred/resentment/suspicion (misogyny) to some of you. Take the world of someone, who remembers, firsthand, all of the truly sickening, pathologically hostile rebukes of Lynda Carter's show, by everyday dudes of ALL ages, ..it sounds like misogyny. I'm not saying that it is, but dang sure sounds, like it to me, ..and I think, in 2020, it's sorta' sad.

No, I don't think Wonder Woman and her Golden Lasso are too powerful. Nope.

[Ascended]

There's usually a stinky context to questions about appropriate power-levels for Wonder Woman. We ask if Superman is too powerful, because his feats of strength and power are seemingly incomparable, even in the crayola-color would of comic superheroes. When it comes to Wonder Woman, we are almost always asking if she's too powerful, compared to Superman, ..even when Big Blue's name isn't mentioned.

What is that about?

It's like I've been saying; Diana's power isn't her's, it's a reflection of Clark's.

In the next reboot, if they say Superman can only lift ten tons, then Diana will be able to lift 9. If they say Superman can lift a million tons, then Diana will be able to lift ten tons less than him.

Now, Clark's the "strength" ceiling no one is allowed to break past, and I'm fine with that. But DC doesn't say "Diana can lift ten tons, and that's where she's at" and then adjust it only if Clark falls below that level. They say "What can Clark do?" and then set Diana just under that. So Diana's main super power has nothing to do with her, and everything to do with a man. Seems rather counter-intuitive doesn't it?

This is why I argue for setting Diana's strength in the mid range, where the fluctuations of Clark's strength won't impact her so directly.....as long as other aspects of her powers, gear, and skill are played up to make up the difference. I don't want Diana any less capable or powerful.....but I'd be fine with it being less dependent on her strength and more dependent on everything else.

[Zahina]

Does Superman's heat vision, super-robot army, Phantom Zone projector, miniature city of alien scientists, similarly-powered, sex-crazed, psychotic alien fangirl...Maxima and stuff ..make him too powerful? Superman is way, wa-aaayy more powerful, than...like almost everybody else?! Sure, he gets these questions, but doesn't get them for the same reason. He gets them, because his power seemingly has no limits or anything we can compare it to.

But, ..Wonder Woman? It's more like a traffic stop, when Wonder Woman gets this question. It's as if we feel compelled to pull her over...correct her, check her, remind her of her place, in things. "Isn't Wonder Woman, a little too powerful in this scene/movie/cartoon/thing? She's not THAT powerful, right?"

C'mon, man. She can't be...right?

I know this doesn't sound like woman-hatred/resentment/suspicion (misogyny) to some of you. Take the world of someone, who remembers, firsthand, all of the truly sickening, pathologically hostile rebukes of Lynda Carter's show, by everyday dudes of ALL ages, ..it sounds like misogyny. I'm not saying that it is, but dang sure sounds, like it to me, ..and I think, in 2020, it's sorta' sad.

No, I don't think Wonder Woman and her Golden Lasso are too powerful. Nope.

My question was to "the tall man".

I don't think Wonder Woman is too powerful. William Moulton Marston created Wonder Woman to be feminine and powerful. Although I prefer the source of her powers to be from amazon training. I find that more interesting than Wonder Woman being born with superpowers.

[WonderLight789]

It's like I've been saying; Diana's power isn't her's, it's a reflection of Clark's.

In the next reboot, if they say Superman can only lift ten tons, then Diana will be able to lift 9. If they say Superman can lift a million tons, then Diana will be able to lift ten tons less than him.

Now, Clark's the "strength" ceiling no one is allowed to break past, and I'm fine with that. But DC doesn't say "Diana can lift ten tons, and that's where she's at" and then adjust it only if Clark falls below that level. They say "What can Clark do?" and then set Diana just under that. So Diana's main super power has nothing to do with her, and everything to do with a man. Seems rather counter-intuitive doesn't it?

This is why I argue for setting Diana's strength in the mid range, where the fluctuations of Clark's strength won't impact her so directly.....as long as other aspects of her powers, gear, and skill are played up to make up the difference. I don't want Diana any less capable or powerful.....but I'd be fine with it being less dependent on her strength and more dependent on everything else.

Mid range is where her strength has been for many years now. When SM lifts or moves a planet like earth. You don't see WW moving the moon. Which would be the 1 level under compared to earth. Actually, you don't even see her moving a continent. So no, i don't believe she is treated as just a step or 2 below SM. And i don't think it's fair that she can't be as powerful as her potential can allow her to be. While other (male heroes) are allowed to be all they can be. I don't want WW to be dependent of gear like a sword and shield, making her look frail and weak without them. Like it has been the case with some recent portrayals.

[Agent Z]

It's like I've been saying; Diana's power isn't her's, it's a reflection of Clark's.

In the next reboot, if they say Superman can only lift ten tons, then Diana will be able to lift 9. If they say Superman can lift a million tons, then Diana will be able to lift ten tons less than him.

Now, Clark's the "strength" ceiling no one is allowed to break past, and I'm fine with that. But DC doesn't say "Diana can lift ten tons, and that's where she's at" and then adjust it only if Clark falls below that level. They say "What can Clark do?" and then set Diana just under that. So Diana's main super power has nothing to do with her, and everything to do with a man. Seems rather counter-intuitive doesn't it?

This is why I argue for setting Diana's strength in the mid range, where the fluctuations of Clark's strength won't impact her so directly.....as long as other aspects of her powers, gear, and skill are played up to make up the difference. I don't want Diana any less capable or powerful.....but I'd be fine with it being less dependent on her strength and more dependent on everything else.

Most of the comparisons between Clark and Diana are done by fans rather than the writers. Diana's strength feats are usually done with no comparison to Clark. Even the recent story that caused this discussion had as much to do with her strength compared to everyone not Clark.

And honestly, defining Clark's strength based on what other characters can't do isn't any better.

[SiegePerilous02]

It's like I've been saying; Diana's power isn't her's, it's a reflection of Clark's.

In the next reboot, if they say Superman can only lift ten tons, then Diana will be able to lift 9. If they say Superman can lift a million tons, then Diana will be able to lift ten tons less than him.

Now, Clark's the "strength" ceiling no one is allowed to break past, and I'm fine with that. But DC doesn't say "Diana can lift ten tons, and that's where she's at" and then adjust it only if Clark falls below that level. They say "What can Clark do?" and then set Diana just under that. So Diana's main super power has nothing to do with her, and everything to do with a man. Seems rather counter-intuitive doesn't it?

This is why I argue for setting Diana's strength in the mid range, where the fluctuations of Clark's strength won't impact her so directly.....as long as other aspects of her powers, gear, and skill are played up to make up the difference. I don't want Diana any less capable or powerful.....but I'd be fine with it being less dependent on her strength and more dependent on everything else.

What constitutes mid-range?

Because the brings to mind some Marvel heroes like Luke Cage or Jessica Jones or even Rogue, which are WAY too low for her. I generally agree Clark should always be top dog in terms of raw strength, but Wonder Woman shouldn't be that far behind him. She makes up the difference in more skills in some areas and lack of his major weaknesses, but I'd rather not see her rely on any gear beyond her bracelets, lasso and the Jet (I'd prefer she lack flight early in her career so she can use the plane, and then get flight later).

[Mel Dyer]

My question was to "the tall man".

I don't think Wonder Woman is too powerful. William Moulton Marston created Wonder Woman to be feminine and powerful. Although I prefer the source of her powers to be from amazon training. I find that more interesting than Wonder Woman being born with superpowers.

I understood that your remarks were expository and not POV. Didn't mean to sound, as though I'm singling you out, Zahina. Misogyny is in the air, when it comes to WW comic.

[The tall man]

Do you think that Wonder Woman and the Lasso of truth are too powerful?

Yeah I do think so, same goes for Superman as well. But I know Superman's defined weaknesses, I know for all his great power if one has kryptonite, red sun light or magic available to them Superman is getting defeated. For all his power he can be beaten. What can you point to as Wonder Woman's define weaknesses, that if you have that in your back pocket you are beating Wonder Woman in a fight? I cannot think of any. And that's not even counting the lasso, which comes across as her own personal cheat code. So long as she has it she can beat anyone, no ifs, ands or buts. She is not doing well in a battle just use the lasso, game set match. It comes across as lazy, an instant win no matter the opposition. Wonder Woman is without a doubt one of the most powerful beings in the DCU but along with Superman and even the Flash they just come across as beyond believable OP. Hell can even begin to guess how one can stop Flash. I simply think that when characters are so OP and the threats they face are equally so OP it just gets to be ridiculous. Look at Snyder's recent JL run or The Batman Who Laughs as examples. This is not a personal attack against Wonder Woman its all OP characters who take it to upsurd levels. Look at all the flack Batgod gets and rightfully so. Yes she's has the power of the Greek Gods within her but when said gods get stomped or killed on the regular one has to look at Diana and wonder how she is so much more powerful than them.

[Ascended]

What constitutes mid-range?

Because the brings to mind some Marvel heroes like Luke Cage or Jessica Jones or even Rogue, which are WAY too low for her. I generally agree Clark should always be top dog in terms of raw strength, but Wonder Woman shouldn't be that far behind him. She makes up the difference in more skills in some areas and lack of his major weaknesses, but I'd rather not see her rely on any gear beyond her bracelets, lasso and the Jet (I'd prefer she lack flight early in her career so she can use the plane, and then get flight later).

I'm thinking mid-range by DC standards. So, I dunno, being able to throw a building across a city or something. That feels fairly mid-range for DC. It's nowhere close to Clark "let me lift this planet for a week" Kent but it's still throwing a building a few miles.

And I don't want her to *rely* on gear, the way Hal relies on his ring...but she's got a unbreakable lasso considered one of the most powerful mystic artifacts on earth, an invisible fighter jet she controls with her mind, a sword that can cut atoms, bracelets that can deflect the friggin Omega Effect....that is some seriously badass stuff.

I'm just saying, turn her "strength" down a few notches (not *too* many) and turn the other things up a few notches, and Diana is just as capable and competent and badass, but can get away from being so cleanly defined by Clark, which I think hurts her character by forcing limits based on *his* ability instead of her own. I mean, it's not like being compared to Clark so much as done J'onn or Shazam any favors either. It's not just Diana.

[Ascended]

And honestly, defining Clark's strength based on what other characters can't do isn't any better.

No, that'd be horrible. But that's not what happens. The writers of Superman decide how strong Superman is. The writers of Superman also indirectly decide how strong Diana is, and that's what I don't care for.

Like I said, the same thing happens to Billy, and they've started to emphasis his other powers, like magic and lightning manipulation, more, which makes the strength comparisons less pertinent. And J'onn is still super strong, but in recent years his other powers seem to get more focus (like in Young Justice they barely bother acknowledging martian strength) and that's seemed to help him stand on his own a bit more too, at least as far as powersets go.

I wrote a whole thing about this a while back in the controversial opinions thread and got into the details a lot more, and I expected everyone here to hate it but it actually got a whole ton of support. But I had to explain a lot and....that's outside the purview of this topic and I just don't wanna have to write all that out again.

[Agent Z]

Yeah I do think so, same goes for Superman as well. But I know Superman's defined weaknesses, I know for all his great power if one has kryptonite, red sun light or magic available to them Superman is getting defeated. For all his power he can be beaten. What can you point to as Wonder Woman's define weaknesses, that if you have that in your back pocket you are beating Wonder Woman in a fight? I cannot think of any. And that's not even counting the lasso, which comes across as her own personal cheat code. So long as she has it she can beat anyone, no ifs, ands or buts. She is not doing well in a battle just use the lasso, game set match. It comes across as lazy, an instant win no matter the opposition. Wonder Woman is without a doubt one of the most powerful beings in the DCU but along with Superman and even the Flash they just come across as beyond believable OP. Hell can even begin to guess how one can stop Flash. I simply think that when characters are so OP and the threats they face are equally so OP it just gets to be ridiculous. Look at Snyder's recent JL run or The Batman Who Laughs as examples. This is not a personal attack against Wonder Woman its all OP characters who take it to upsurd levels. Look at all the flack Batgod gets and rightfully so. Yes she's has the power of the Greek Gods within her but when said gods get stomped or killed on the regular one has to look at Diana and wonder how she is so much more powerful than them.

Diana has been beaten and she does have a weakness: bullets.

[Phoenixx9]

I'm thinking mid-range by DC standards. So, I dunno, being able to throw a building across a city or something. That feels fairly mid-range for DC. It's nowhere close to Clark "let me lift this planet for a week" Kent but it's still throwing a f**king building a few miles.

And I don't want her to *rely* on gear, the way Hal relies on his ring...but she's got a unbreakable lasso considered one of the most powerful mystic artifacts on earth, an invisible fighter jet she controls with her mind, a sword that can cut atoms, bracelets that can deflect the friggin Omega Effect....that is some seriously badass stuff.

I'm just saying, turn her "strength" down a few notches (not *too* many) and turn the other things up a few notches, and Diana is just as capable and competent and badass, but can get away from being so cleanly defined by Clark, which I think hurts her character by forcing limits based on *his* ability instead of her own. I mean, it's not like being compared to Clark so much as done J'onn or Shazam any favors either. It's not just Diana.

We could "turn down her stregth a few notches", as you suggest, but then all those under Wonder Woman strength level like Power Girl, Supergirl and Mary Marvel are going to be turned down in strength that much more----and they will be many, many levels below Wonder Woman----at that point. Even lowert than now.

[Ascended]

We could "turn down her stregth a few notches", as you suggest, but then all those under Wonder Woman strength level like Power Girl, Supergirl and Mary Marvel are going to be turned down in strength that much more----and they will be many, many levels below Wonder Woman----at that point. Even lowert than now.

I'm not talking about turning those characters down a few notches, I'm talking about abandoning the idea that Diana is the second strongest there is. Let those lesser characters argue and fight over the silver medal, and let Diana focus on all the stuff where she brings home the gold.

PG and Mary Marvel (what IS she gonna be called? Eight years without a code name!) can be stronger than Diana, the Amazing Amazon is still going to be far more deadly in a fight and a more capable hero.