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  1. #226
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
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    Based on consistent feats, Diana's strength and striking power should be around planetary to multiplanetary. Meaning when she's holding nothing back she has the raw strength to bust planets. That puts her in the same category as Superman, SHAZAM, Martian Manhunter, etc... but probably a notch below Superman and a notch above everyone else.
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  2. #227
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I'm not talking about turning those characters down a few notches, I'm talking about abandoning the idea that Diana is the second strongest there is. Let those lesser characters argue and fight over the silver medal, and let Diana focus on all the stuff where she brings home the gold.

    PG and Mary Marvel (what IS she gonna be called? Eight years without a code name!) can be stronger than Diana, the Amazing Amazon is still going to be far more deadly in a fight and a more capable hero.
    I understand your points----but what we are saying is that Diana does bring home the Gold Medal as thee strongest female character, while also ranking up there with Superman.

    We know that Diana has mad-deadly fighting/comabat skills, magical weapons, etc.

    But that is not all Diana is known for---she is the Princess of Power, the Amazing Amazon and Super-Heroine Number One! Diana's strength puts her at the top spot.

    ( I call Mary Mary Marvel because that is the only name I know for her.)

  3. #228
    Spectacular Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I'm not talking about turning those characters down a few notches, I'm talking about abandoning the idea that Diana is the second strongest there is. Let those lesser characters argue and fight over the silver medal, and let Diana focus on all the stuff where she brings home the gold.

    PG and Mary Marvel (what IS she gonna be called? Eight years without a code name!) can be stronger than Diana, the Amazing Amazon is still going to be far more deadly in a fight and a more capable hero.
    SM can be number one strength super hero and WW can't be that for females? Sorry but i would never like that idea.

  4. #229
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    I understand your points----but what we are saying is that Diana does bring home the Gold Medal as thee strongest female character, while also ranking up there with Superman.
    Not a bad way to think about it. But I dislike the gendering. Diana being "strongest hero there is.......among the girls" feels, I dunno, like a backhanded compliment or something.

    ( I call Mary Mary Marvel because that is the only name I know for her.)
    Same, but she really needs a moniker now.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  5. #230
    Spectacular Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Not a bad way to think about it. But I dislike the gendering. Diana being "strongest hero there is.......among the girls" feels, I dunno, like a backhanded compliment or something.



    Same, but she really needs a moniker now.
    I don't see why. It'd be like saying clark being the strongest among the guys is a backhanded compliment. Diana was created to be a powerhouse just like the big boys.

  6. #231
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    What's the matter, with Wonder Woman being really powerful and more powerful, than most of the men. She's the daughter of Zeus and the Amazon Queen, after all.

  7. #232
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    And Diana is a woman. I can't call her a man---and say "he---Diana" is just slightly under Superman as the #2 man in strength". That is just plain wrong.

    Diana is a woman. There is no derrogatory connotation meant, it is simply what she is---a woman.

    In fact, she is a Wonder Woman. That is why she is the Strongest Female in DC Comics.

  8. #233
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    I don't see why. It'd be like saying clark being the strongest among the guys is a backhanded compliment. Diana was created to be a powerhouse just like the big boys.
    Considering the historical implications, that's not entirely compatible. But yeah, if someone was like "Clark's a good journalist....for a dude" that could be kinda backhanded.

    Diana being the strongest, but with the caveat of gender.....just rubs me wrong. It's like saying "Oh yeah, she's a great athlete.....for a girl."

    And don't mistake what I'm saying; Diana is a powerhouse and is arguably the most dangerous person on earth. And I don't want that to change. I'm not bothered by her being the second strongest, what I'm bothered by is that her strength is decided by somebody else. Clark sets the ceiling that hangs over everyone, but because Diana is so close it hangs much heavier and much closer to her than anyone else, and combined with her high profile....I just don't like a major character like Di having one of her main attributes totally and completely defined by someone else. I wouldn't want Clark's speed based on Barry's, or vice versa, either.

    I feel like this has taken over the thread and it's not that big a deal, I'm not losing sleep over it or anything, it's not something I'd campaign hard for. I just wish Diana's powers were defined by Diana, and not by Clark.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  9. #234
    Spectacular Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Considering the historical implications, that's not entirely compatible. But yeah, if someone was like "Clark's a good journalist....for a dude" that could be kinda backhanded.

    Diana being the strongest, but with the caveat of gender.....just rubs me wrong. It's like saying "Oh yeah, she's a great athlete.....for a girl."

    And don't mistake what I'm saying; Diana is a powerhouse and is arguably the most dangerous person on earth. And I don't want that to change. I'm not bothered by her being the second strongest, what I'm bothered by is that her strength is decided by somebody else. Clark sets the ceiling that hangs over everyone, but because Diana is so close it hangs much heavier and much closer to her than anyone else, and combined with her high profile....I just don't like a major character like Di having one of her main attributes totally and completely defined by someone else. I wouldn't want Clark's speed based on Barry's, or vice versa, either.

    I feel like this has taken over the thread and it's not that big a deal, I'm not losing sleep over it or anything, it's not something I'd campaign hard for. I just wish Diana's powers were defined by Diana, and not by Clark.
    At the end of the day. WW doesn't get enough respect in terms of power feats nowadays. Sure SM may have his bad moments, but overall his treatment is far better than what Diana has been getting for many years now. And that disrespect is not going to change by making her power even lower and more dependent on gear. It will just make things worse. The so called powerhouse female number 1 isn't getting half the big moments of the top gun boys. And that is what rubs me the wrong way.

  10. #235
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I feel like this has taken over the thread and it's not that big a deal, I'm not losing sleep over it or anything, it's not something I'd campaign hard for. I just wish Diana's powers were defined by Diana, and not by Clark.
    This, very much.

    I also think it doesn't help that Wonder Woman is alone among the top-tier superheroines, when one considers power set and popular profile. Most other well-known superheroines are not of the flying brick type, and She-Hulk and Captain Marvel are nowhere near Wonder Woman in long-term popular presence.

    That's why I want more Wonder Woman stories which aren't simply action stories where Diana wins by punching things. I want her to think, and I want to see a lot more use of her other powers, abilities, and skills.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  11. #236
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    At the end of the day. WW doesn't get enough respect in terms of power feats nowadays.

    The so called powerhouse female number 1 isn't getting half the big moments of the top gun boys. And that is what rubs me the wrong way.
    I really don't like that either. Virtually everything about how DC treats Diana pisses me off. And it pisses me off when, on the rare occasion she does get some really good showings, people start accusing her of being too powerful.

    I'll try to make this the last thing I say on the topic since I don't want to Bogart the thread with this conversation more than we already have. But you're almost making the argument for me. Diana is #2, and doesn't get the feats now, so what benefit is being #2 really providing? Has being "in the running" for strength helped Shazam or J'onn or Captain Atom or any of the heroes who are *almost* as strong as Clark and have, at various points in time, had semi-solid claims on that #2 position? No. What's helped those characters is focusing less on their physical strength and the inevitable comparisons to Superman, and more on the things that make them unique. So why are we focusing on this one particular thing so much for Di, when she has soooo many traits, skills, qualities, and abilities where she not only shines, but is the nigh-undisputed #1 hero?

    She's the best super powered combatant on earth, hands down. She's the best diplomat in the hero community. She's got some of the coolest toys. She's got a fantastic setting full of unique, fantastic concepts, characters, and monsters. She's the undisputed biggest female hero in fiction. And she's a legit, no bullsh*t goddess (or demigoddess, depending on the version). Instead of the ever-present comparisons to Clark where Diana will *always* be second, I'd much rather focus on the stuff unique to her, where she's #1. And not just "for a girl" but straight up, no caveats, The Best.

    It's like writing Thor, and practically ignoring his ability to control storms, generate lightning, centuries of experience, and all those awesome cosmic Thor things....and focusing only on how hard he can punch.

    I'd kill to get some badass scene in a comic where Diana rips through a room full of powerful bad guys, using her training and lasso to take people down while also mentally controlling a super advanced invisible fighter jet designed to take down superhumans, while *also* using whatever mythical influence/power she has (yeah, I'd play this aspect of her up a tiny bit to balance out not focusing on strength; not making her a mage or anything but adding a few tricks to her already impressive arsenal) to soundly smash her foes.....instead of her just plowing through them with raw brute force. Lots of characters can plow through a room full of bad guys with raw brute force.....nobody else can do what I'm describing here except Diana.

    If DC could write Diana and her strength properly and consistently give her the feats to warrant her ranking, then I'd be cool with it. Like I said, this is not a big deal for me and I *do* appreciate Diana's raw power on the rare occasion it's actually shown right. But DC doesn't consistently write Diana like that, hasn't consistently written Diana like that since Marston left, and moments where Diana gets to flex those muscles are fairly few and far between, compared to everyone else in her weight class. We're not actually getting anything out of this except bragging rights, but "strong" is an easy, lazy out for writers who don't want to put any actual effort in.
    Last edited by Ascended; 07-23-2020 at 11:19 AM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  12. #237
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post

    I'd kill to get some badass scene in a comic where Diana rips through a room full of powerful bad guys, using her training and lasso to take people down while also mentally controlling a super advanced invisible fighter jet designed to take down superhumans, while *also* using whatever mythical influence/power she has (yeah, I'd play this aspect of her up a tiny bit to balance out not focusing on strength; not making her a mage or anything but adding a few tricks to her already impressive arsenal) to soundly smash her foes.....instead of her just plowing through them with raw brute force. Lots of characters can plow through a room full of bad guys with raw brute force.....nobody else can do what I'm describing here except Diana.

    If DC could write Diana and her strength properly and consistently give her the feats to warrant her ranking, then I'd be cool with it. Like I said, this is not a big deal for me and I *do* appreciate Diana's raw power on the rare occasion it's actually shown right. But DC doesn't consistently write Diana like that, hasn't consistently written Diana like that since Marston left, and moments where Diana gets to flex those muscles are fairly few and far between, compared to everyone else in her weight class. We're not actually getting anything out of this except bragging rights, but "strong" is an easy, lazy out for writers who don't want to put any actual effort in.
    This is exactly what we got for many years---Diana using her Lasso, the Invisible Plane and all of her other magical items.

    And this is exactly why you and the others do not see her as very strong--the strongest in fact---because Diana did use these other items, instead of just rushing in the situation with her super-speed, plow through the walls and knock everyone out with one super-strong punch.

    So you all say she is not the strongest because she has all these magical items which Diana uses, but then when she uses her strength, you suggest it is better to use her lasso to be "different" from the others.

    Whether Diana has magical items, uses magical items or throws them all away, Diana is still the strongest. Diana does not need to make herself different from the rest of the pack, because Diana is already different from them all because she is the Princess of the Amazons.
    Last edited by Phoenixx9; 07-23-2020 at 12:04 PM.

  13. #238
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    And this is exactly why you and the others do not see her as very strong--the strongest in fact---because Diana did use these other items
    That is the exact opposite of what I've been saying. I spent two pages of this thread bitching about Diana being SO strong she doesn't have any agency in her power levels or limits because it's all based on somebody else....and your takeaway is that I think she's not strong in the first place?

    ??
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  14. #239
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    That is the exact opposite of what I've been saying. I spent two pages of this thread bitching about Diana being SO strong she doesn't have any agency in her power levels or limits because it's all based on somebody else....and your takeaway is that I think she's not strong in the first place?

    ??
    Not exactly, I heard your statements. But in a back=handed way, you are saying to lower Diana's strength so that she stands out (more), or as you say, so that Diana stands out without regards to Clark/Superman.

    But what I am saying is that Wonder Woman does stand out, she does have agency and standing----on her own----and for many reasons: Top strength, magical weapons, the unbreakable golden Lasso of Truth and all of her other special powers and weapons. Diana does not need to be depowered or lowered in strength.

  15. #240
    Spectacular Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I really don't like that either. Virtually everything about how DC treats Diana pisses me off. And it pisses me off when, on the rare occasion she does get some really good showings, people start accusing her of being too powerful.

    I'll try to make this the last thing I say on the topic since I don't want to Bogart the thread with this conversation more than we already have. But you're almost making the argument for me. Diana is #2, and doesn't get the feats now, so what benefit is being #2 really providing? Has being "in the running" for strength helped Shazam or J'onn or Captain Atom or any of the heroes who are *almost* as strong as Clark and have, at various points in time, had semi-solid claims on that #2 position? No. What's helped those characters is focusing less on their physical strength and the inevitable comparisons to Superman, and more on the things that make them unique. So why are we focusing on this one particular thing so much for Di, when she has soooo many traits, skills, qualities, and abilities where she not only shines, but is the nigh-undisputed #1 hero?

    She's the best super powered combatant on earth, hands down. She's the best diplomat in the hero community. She's got some of the coolest toys. She's got a fantastic setting full of unique, fantastic concepts, characters, and monsters. She's the undisputed biggest female hero in fiction. And she's a legit, no bullsh*t goddess (or demigoddess, depending on the version). Instead of the ever-present comparisons to Clark where Diana will *always* be second, I'd much rather focus on the stuff unique to her, where she's #1. And not just "for a girl" but straight up, no caveats, The Best.

    It's like writing Thor, and practically ignoring his ability to control storms, generate lightning, centuries of experience, and all those awesome cosmic Thor things....and focusing only on how hard he can punch.

    I'd kill to get some badass scene in a comic where Diana rips through a room full of powerful bad guys, using her training and lasso to take people down while also mentally controlling a super advanced invisible fighter jet designed to take down superhumans, while *also* using whatever mythical influence/power she has (yeah, I'd play this aspect of her up a tiny bit to balance out not focusing on strength; not making her a mage or anything but adding a few tricks to her already impressive arsenal) to soundly smash her foes.....instead of her just plowing through them with raw brute force. Lots of characters can plow through a room full of bad guys with raw brute force.....nobody else can do what I'm describing here except Diana.

    If DC could write Diana and her strength properly and consistently give her the feats to warrant her ranking, then I'd be cool with it. Like I said, this is not a big deal for me and I *do* appreciate Diana's raw power on the rare occasion it's actually shown right. But DC doesn't consistently write Diana like that, hasn't consistently written Diana like that since Marston left, and moments where Diana gets to flex those muscles are fairly few and far between, compared to everyone else in her weight class. We're not actually getting anything out of this except bragging rights, but "strong" is an easy, lazy out for writers who don't want to put any actual effort in.

    That is exactly the problem. That a character that was created to be a big powerhouse and used to have great feats of power, is not getting enough showins nowadays. And that problem won't be fixed by making her strength lower, when they barely show her using her strength as it is right now. It's not fair for Di to be the one that has to go down, while others go up. She was a heavy hitter since she was created. And DC should put some effort into showing that she still is a heavy hitter. Not a glorified warrior woman with magic gear.

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