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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    This, very much.

    I also think it doesn't help that Wonder Woman is alone among the top-tier superheroines, when one considers power set and popular profile. Most other well-known superheroines are not of the flying brick type, and She-Hulk and Captain Marvel are nowhere near Wonder Woman in long-term popular presence.

    That's why I want more Wonder Woman stories which aren't simply action stories where Diana wins by punching things. I want her to think, and I want to see a lot more use of her other powers, abilities, and skills.
    Wonder Woman is supposed to be "wise as Athena". There should be more wisdom moments from Diana in her adventures. Her skill as a leader and diplomat needs to shine more and not just as a warrior.

  2. #242
    Spectacular Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahina View Post
    Wonder Woman is supposed to be "wise as Athena". There should be more wisdom moments from Diana in her adventures. Her skill as a leader and diplomat needs to shine more and not just as a warrior.
    All of her powers need to shine more. Including her striking force, durability, healing factor and super speed.

  3. #243
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahina View Post
    Wonder Woman is supposed to be "wise as Athena". There should be more wisdom moments from Diana in her adventures. Her skill as a leader and diplomat needs to shine more and not just as a warrior.
    All of Wonder Woman's powers need to shine more such as her strength giving a beat-down to heroes and villains alike. After all, Diana is as beautiful as Aphrodite, wise as Athena, swifter than Mercury and STRONGER than Hercules!

    Let the fires of Hestia burn the truth out of the liars with her unbreakable golden Lasso of Truth.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    All of her powers need to shine more. Including her striking force, durability, healing factor and super speed.
    Super Strength
    Super Speed(agility and reflexes)
    Stamina
    Durability(resistance to damage, magic attacks,extreme temperatures)
    Hestia's sisterhood with fire
    Healing Factor(immunity from poisons, toxins, and diseases)
    Ability to fly
    Enhanced senses(sight, hearing, smell)
    Communicate and manipulate animals(mammals, reptiles, insects, mythical, alien, and prehistoric.
    Astral Projection
    Electrokinesis(lightning projection and manipulation)
    Last edited by Zahina; 07-23-2020 at 05:53 PM.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    You really don't have an argument do you? You're just typing "impossible this, impossible that" and hoping it works some how.

    Saying that the lasso working on Phantom Stranger is a feat for Diana is like saying Mjolnir summoning a massive lightning storm is a feat for Thor. She physically could not harm Stranger and needed her gear to win. Relax, she isn't suddenly omnipotent.

    Diana isn't mortal.

    It doesn't matter where the Greek Gods are in power the lasso is not the Greek Gods.
    I am not hoping it works, it simply works this way.

    Its good that you mentioned Mjölnir, because MARVEL did the logical way:
    Thor throws Mjölnir at Hela and Hela catches and destroys Mjölnir.

    Diana is mortal...

    Its simply impossible that it works on a being like the Phantom Stranger who is OUTSIDE of every classification and could kill every God with a simple move.

    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    Except its not statements, its years of in canon feats. I can provide them, its every instance were Diana has tied someone up and they couldn't escape by breaking the lasso. Its not the same as saying Superman is the most powerful hero and then having SHAZAM or Martian Manhunter or Wonder Woman slap him around a bit. I have a question, as someone who clearly doesn't know a lot about WW, did you know that WW tying people up in the lasso was her way of solving conflicts without more violence and then used that time to talk to them (like she did with Stranger) or do you not care?
    He is right, is 10000000% the same.

    It DOESNT matter...
    Did you see Thor vs Hela????

    Thor tried to use Mjölnir at Hela and Hela caught it and destroyed it.

    Mjölnir was also said to be UNBREAKABLE!!

    Canon feats doesnt matter, because they are ridiculous...
    Are they your arguments?

    Sorry, thats ridiculous!!

    You are talking about ridiculous canon in feats with weak people like Shazam,Superman etc. and compare it to an omnipotent being who is OUTSIDE of Classification?

    Thats ridiculous: Its like saying: Oh, I can lift up a pencil and therefore I am able to lift the earth!

    It makes NO SENSE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    What is the matter, with Wonder Woman wielding a weapon, which is the singularly most powerful war-ending instrument in the known universe? I'm sick of writers, particularly those outside of the comic, ignoring the omniscient power of the Golden Lasso, ..breaking it or subverting it. DC Comics editors should protect the bloody lasso...period.

    How many times have we seen Superman's heat vision decide who won or lost a battle?

    Some writer is always finding an excuse to treat Wonder Woman like crap, in a story. I will always suspect misogyny, when I see that, because I have been a comixeur long enough to know that many of my fellow, male comic fans ..are straight-up misogynists, who bear a deep contempt and resentment for women. I've heard them say, out loud...

    "I just don't like her. Do you really think she's as good, as Superman (or Male Hero X, usually Batman, Hulk or Wolverine)? What is she doing on the team? She's still a woman!"

    We, male comic fans - we've all heard that, at some point in our lifetimes. I don't think writers are exempt from or above this peculiar sort of bigotry, and I think their stories usually tell the tale.

    No, Wonder Woman is not over-powered. Respect the Golden Lasso.
    Its not omnicscient etc.

    Its not misogyny etc.

    Reality is this with Phantom Stranger is ridiculous......Its NOT!! because she is a woman, thats ridiculous and makes NO SENSE!

    Its simple because NOBODY should be able to harm etc. the Phantom Stranger.

    I would react the same way if it would be Clark,Batman,Martian Manhunter etc.

    Its simply ridiculous and OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I really don't like that either. Virtually everything about how DC treats Diana pisses me off. And it pisses me off when, on the rare occasion she does get some really good showings, people start accusing her of being too powerful.

    I'll try to make this the last thing I say on the topic since I don't want to Bogart the thread with this conversation more than we already have. But you're almost making the argument for me. Diana is #2, and doesn't get the feats now, so what benefit is being #2 really providing? Has being "in the running" for strength helped Shazam or J'onn or Captain Atom or any of the heroes who are *almost* as strong as Clark and have, at various points in time, had semi-solid claims on that #2 position? No. What's helped those characters is focusing less on their physical strength and the inevitable comparisons to Superman, and more on the things that make them unique. So why are we focusing on this one particular thing so much for Di, when she has soooo many traits, skills, qualities, and abilities where she not only shines, but is the nigh-undisputed #1 hero?

    She's the best super powered combatant on earth, hands down. She's the best diplomat in the hero community. She's got some of the coolest toys. She's got a fantastic setting full of unique, fantastic concepts, characters, and monsters. She's the undisputed biggest female hero in fiction. And she's a legit, no bullsh*t goddess (or demigoddess, depending on the version). Instead of the ever-present comparisons to Clark where Diana will *always* be second, I'd much rather focus on the stuff unique to her, where she's #1. And not just "for a girl" but straight up, no caveats, The Best.

    It's like writing Thor, and practically ignoring his ability to control storms, generate lightning, centuries of experience, and all those awesome cosmic Thor things....and focusing only on how hard he can punch.

    I'd kill to get some badass scene in a comic where Diana rips through a room full of powerful bad guys, using her training and lasso to take people down while also mentally controlling a super advanced invisible fighter jet designed to take down superhumans, while *also* using whatever mythical influence/power she has (yeah, I'd play this aspect of her up a tiny bit to balance out not focusing on strength; not making her a mage or anything but adding a few tricks to her already impressive arsenal) to soundly smash her foes.....instead of her just plowing through them with raw brute force. Lots of characters can plow through a room full of bad guys with raw brute force.....nobody else can do what I'm describing here except Diana.

    If DC could write Diana and her strength properly and consistently give her the feats to warrant her ranking, then I'd be cool with it. Like I said, this is not a big deal for me and I *do* appreciate Diana's raw power on the rare occasion it's actually shown right. But DC doesn't consistently write Diana like that, hasn't consistently written Diana like that since Marston left, and moments where Diana gets to flex those muscles are fairly few and far between, compared to everyone else in her weight class. We're not actually getting anything out of this except bragging rights, but "strong" is an easy, lazy out for writers who don't want to put any actual effort in.
    If you are talking about Thor:

    MARVEL did the right thing and showed in Film how it has to be:

    Mjölnir was said to be unbreakable, but then Hela showed up, who is superior to Thor and broke the Hammer EASILY.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    There's usually a stinky context to questions about appropriate power-levels for Wonder Woman. We ask if Superman is too powerful, because his feats of strength and power are seemingly incomparable, even in the crayola-color would of comic superheroes. When it comes to Wonder Woman, we are almost always asking if she's too powerful, compared to Superman, ..even when Big Blue's name isn't mentioned.

    What is that about?
    Its NOT about Superman, I dont know what you are talking about.

    The Situation for Phantom Stranger is impossible and only Elaine,Spectre,Lucifer,Michael and Presence himself should be able to restrain, harm him etc.

    Its not about comparison, its simply about impossibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Simply put far too many characters are way overpowered in the DC Universe. From Superman, The Flash and Wonder Woman, and it seems that many want them to stay that way. I think that there should be limitations to characters or that some should have to struggle and barely pull out a win. It makes stories far more interesting than reading about a bunch of mary and gary sue's who win effortlessly. Characters should be humbled sometimes, they should get defeated sometimes, not everything should be a cakewalk or a win that came out of nowhere. It seems some want Diana to be mary sue, to beat any and everybody; it not by herself then with her lasso. And if she doesn't or she isn't perfect then it's sexism. Wonder Woman is not above criticism nor is it a crime if she loses a fight, neither is Superman or Flash. But because they are so OP any bad showing in a fight is decried as jobbing or bad writing. All-powerful characters are boring too read and the writer is forced to come up with evermore bigger threats that border on or surpass the ridiculous. DC needs to scale back the power levels of many characters but they won't and many don't want them to, or not their favorites at least.
    You are COMPLETELY RIGHT.

    I really find it funny:

    Superman does something powerful: He is OP!!

    Wonder Woman does something IMPOSSIBLE like capturing Phantom Stranger who was able to resist Eclipso,Spectre and Dr. Fate together: Its completely ok!

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    Actually no. BM and SM have done more ridiculous things.

    The lasso is literally unbreakable, so yeah. stranger can't break it.

    Diana is not a simple mortal. And not all new gods are super powerful. And in fact, darkseid himself has a tendency to be a jobber.
    No, they havent.

    No its not unbreakable..

    Diana IS a simple mortal....

    And NO Darkseid is NO Jobber, he lost because he usually relies on AVATARS...This was also the explanation why Brainiac often loses.

    Brainiac and Darkseid use most of the time Avatars for fighting which arent as powerful as they are themselves.

  7. #247
    Spectacular Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    No, they havent.

    No its not unbreakable..

    Diana IS a simple mortal....

    And NO Darkseid is NO Jobber, he lost because he usually relies on AVATARS...This was also the explanation why Brainiac often loses.

    Brainiac and Darkseid use most of the time Avatars for fighting which arent as powerful as they are themselves.

    Actually yes they have.

    It is unbreakable. It's part of what the lasso is.

    Diana is not a simple mortal. She is a Demi Goddess who doesn't age and has powers from multiple Gods

    Darkseid is more than once treated as a jobber.

  8. #248
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    All of her powers need to shine more. Including her striking force, durability, healing factor and super speed.
    While I agree with the sentiment, the powers you mention are all of the flying brick variety, and the only ones that seems to matter most of the time to DC.

    What Ascended has identified as a problem is that this power set is hardly unique. If those are the ones that all she uses, she will always be defined as #2 to Superman and by his power levels. But Diana is a lot more than that. She has telepathic and telempathic powers. She can communicate with animals. Arguably, she has a connection with both the Green (she has Demeter as a Patron goddess) and the Red (ditto for Artemis). Her gifts from Hestia, Aphrodite, and Athena manifest themselves is still very much undefined.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  9. #249
    Spectacular Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    While I agree with the sentiment, the powers you mention are all of the flying brick variety, and the only ones that seems to matter most of the time to DC.

    What Ascended has identified as a problem is that this power set is hardly unique. If those are the ones that all she uses, she will always be defined as #2 to Superman and by his power levels. But Diana is a lot more than that. She has telepathic and telempathic powers. She can communicate with animals. Arguably, she has a connection with both the Green (she has Demeter as a Patron goddess) and the Red (ditto for Artemis). Her gifts from Hestia, Aphrodite, and Athena manifest themselves is still very much undefined.
    Her main powers(strength, durability, speed) barely get to shine nowadays. We can't expect to see better for her other abilities, if not even her most classic powers are getting respect currently. This pattern needs to change.

  10. #250
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    Her main powers(strength, durability, speed) barely get to shine nowadays. We can't expect to see better for her other abilities, if not even her most classic powers are getting respect currently. This pattern needs to change.
    Sorry, your preconceptions are showing. These have never been her "main" powers, or even "her most classic powers". You are focusing too much on Heracles and Hermes, powers that are already widely known and understood and used, when I (and I guess Ascended) wants to explore the powers she received from Amazon training and from Hestia, Aphrodite, Athena, and Artemis.

    The movie made her empathy into a key to keep the team together, and the Amazon values (and love of Aphrodite) into what she needed to defeat Ares. Pérez had her acting as a heroic midwife, using her psychic powers and the gifts of Artemis. Marston had her use telepathy, advanced psychological knowledge, and leadership skills at key points in the narrative. Simone had her dig deep into her Amazon training in order to defeat a mind-controlled Power Girl.

    That is stuff that not only is sadly underused. It is also stuff that makes her different and unique from other superheroes—including Superman.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    While I agree with the sentiment, the powers you mention are all of the flying brick variety, and the only ones that seems to matter most of the time to DC.

    What Ascended has identified as a problem is that this power set is hardly unique. If those are the ones that all she uses, she will always be defined as #2 to Superman and by his power levels. But Diana is a lot more than that. She has telepathic and telempathic powers. She can communicate with animals. Arguably, she has a connection with both the Green (she has Demeter as a Patron goddess) and the Red (ditto for Artemis). Her gifts from Hestia, Aphrodite, and Athena manifest themselves is still very much undefined.
    Well she used to. Besides, I think Martian Manhunter has the market cornered on those as well.

  12. #252
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    She could use a lot more travel speed feats & lightning blast attacks being zeus daughter

  13. #253
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    I am not hoping it works, it simply works this way.

    Its good that you mentioned Mjölnir, because MARVEL did the logical way:
    Thor throws Mjölnir at Hela and Hela catches and destroys Mjölnir.

    Diana is mortal...

    Its simply impossible that it works on a being like the Phantom Stranger who is OUTSIDE of every classification and could kill every God with a simple move.

    He is right, is 10000000% the same.

    It DOESNT matter...
    Did you see Thor vs Hela????

    Thor tried to use Mjölnir at Hela and Hela caught it and destroyed it.

    Mjölnir was also said to be UNBREAKABLE!!

    Canon feats doesnt matter, because they are ridiculous...
    Are they your arguments?

    Sorry, thats ridiculous!!

    You are talking about ridiculous canon in feats with weak people like Shazam,Superman etc. and compare it to an omnipotent being who is OUTSIDE of Classification?

    Thats ridiculous: Its like saying: Oh, I can lift up a pencil and therefore I am able to lift the earth!

    It makes NO SENSE!
    LMAO, are you using the movie version of Thor as a comparison? Sure, ok, I mean that's actually like comparing an avatar of Darkseid with Darkseid himself.

    Again with this "impossible and ridiculous" nonsense, 1) this is comics, impossible stuff happens all the time 2) show me with feats or your wrong

    Diana is immortal, stated a dozen times.

    again, LMAO, "what the characters are capable of doesn't matter because I don't want it to" is a hot take I wasn't expecting but, I'm not entirely surprised by.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  14. #254
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Sorry, your preconceptions are showing. These have never been her "main" powers, or even "her most classic powers". You are focusing too much on Heracles and Hermes, powers that are already widely known and understood and used, when I (and I guess Ascended) wants to explore the powers she received from Amazon training and from Hestia, Aphrodite, Athena, and Artemis.

    The movie made her empathy into a key to keep the team together, and the Amazon values (and love of Aphrodite) into what she needed to defeat Ares. Pérez had her acting as a heroic midwife, using her psychic powers and the gifts of Artemis. Marston had her use telepathy, advanced psychological knowledge, and leadership skills at key points in the narrative. Simone had her dig deep into her Amazon training in order to defeat a mind-controlled Power Girl.

    That is stuff that not only is sadly underused. It is also stuff that makes her different and unique from other superheroes—including Superman.
    I understand what you are saying, I do. However, currently writers have a difficult time showing her, really any superheroes, most basic power set (strength, speed, and durability) consistently. We don't get to see Diana towing the sun or moon around like in the golden age, instead we've been reliant seeing Diana fight powerful people and then use their power as a measuring stick for her. She has a hard enough time staying in her tier level, I don't think we are going to be able to see her other more unique powers if we barely see her most basic ones.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  15. #255
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    For Diana, love, empathy, and leadership are "basic" powers!
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

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