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  1. #271
    Spectacular Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    She is mortal....

    I am NOT using the Movie Version of Thor!

    I only tell you how it should have worked with the lasso..

    In-Canon Feats are ridiculous and mean NOTHING!! BECAUSE and now READ!!

    Phantom Stranger is the most powerful being in DC behind Elaine,Presence,Spectre,Michael and Lucifer..
    Not even "Gods" like Zeus or Darkseid come close to him in terms of powers.

    So if you compare Superman being captured by the Lasso with capturing Phantom Stranger you are comparing holding a pencil with holding the world.

    You simply dont know who the Phantom Stranger is...



    No, they didnt...If you have some, then list them.....

    Its NOT unbreakable, its like Thors Hammer....Unbreakable until someone breaks it...

    Darkseid uses AVATARS!! He DOESNT fight in his true form...



    I dont know what do you want to say with these citations etc.

    They mean nothing-thats ridiculous...

    Phantom Stranger is OUTSIDE of any classification, not even Gods can compare to him....

    Even Mjölnir was said that its indestrucatable and Mjölnir was destroyed.

    Its unbreakable until someone breaks it and the Phantom Stranger is EASILY in the class to break it..

    You compare AVATAR Darkseid with REAL Darkseid, it doesnt make any sense...

    Immortality in DC only exist for 2 beings: Presence and Spectre.
    Presence because its logical and Spectre, because he exists as long as there is a desire for Vengeance.

    Zeus,Diana,Darkseid....are mortals..
    Unbreakable means that, unbreakable. By any means unbreakable.

    Some of the feats for BM and SM have been mentioned allready. You can check the thread.

    That still doesn't make them simple mortals.

  2. #272
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    She is mortal....

    I am NOT using the Movie Version of Thor!

    I only tell you how it should have worked with the lasso..

    In-Canon Feats are ridiculous and mean NOTHING!! BECAUSE and now READ!!

    Phantom Stranger is the most powerful being in DC behind Elaine,Presence,Spectre,Michael and Lucifer..
    Not even "Gods" like Zeus or Darkseid come close to him in terms of powers.

    So if you compare Superman being captured by the Lasso with capturing Phantom Stranger you are comparing holding a pencil with holding the world.

    You simply dont know who the Phantom Stranger is...



    No, they didnt...If you have some, then list them.....

    Its NOT unbreakable, its like Thors Hammer....Unbreakable until someone breaks it...

    Darkseid uses AVATARS!! He DOESNT fight in his true form...



    I dont know what do you want to say with these citations etc.

    They mean nothing-thats ridiculous...

    Phantom Stranger is OUTSIDE of any classification, not even Gods can compare to him....

    Even Mjölnir was said that its indestrucatable and Mjölnir was destroyed.

    Its unbreakable until someone breaks it and the Phantom Stranger is EASILY in the class to break it..

    You compare AVATAR Darkseid with REAL Darkseid, it doesnt make any sense...

    Immortality in DC only exist for 2 beings: Presence and Spectre.
    Presence because its logical and Spectre, because he exists as long as there is a desire for Vengeance.

    Zeus,Diana,Darkseid....are mortals..
    Let me put this simply.

    The lasso is, by definition of DC Comics, unbreakable.

    Everything in comics is unbreakable/invulnerable/undefeatable until they are broken/injured/defeated.

    It's a simple rule and it applies to everyone and everything in comics.

    That includes the Phantom Stranger who was defeated, for example, by the Spear of Destiny.

    You can't set a rule and then arbitrarily decide that it doesn't apply to a character you like, especially when it's been proven already that artifacts in DC can harm him.

    You and say 'he's in a class to break it,' and I can counter with 'the lasso is in a class to defeat him' as it has defeated gods in the past.

    Phantom Stranger at this point in time (until DC re-writes him again) is a cursed Judas. He has also been 'the wandering Jew,' and afallen angel. However, his true origin, nature or extent of his powers have never been fully defined and change from writer to writer. He is, more often than not, a plot device; DCs version of 'The Watcher' (who was immortal until he wasn't )

    Stranger is (or has been) part of the Quintessence, which puts him on the same 'level' as Shazam, Ganthet, Zeus and Highfather.

    Another version puts him on an equal footing with Pandora and the Question when he was brought before and judged by the council of wizards.

    His place in the DCU, his power level and his authority are all over the place. He's cursed by the Presence, he's a neutral angel, he's judged and damned by the council of wizards, he's part of a council of immortals, etc. Essentially, he is whatever the writers and editors at DC need at any given moment to move the plot along.

    Btw, CBR listed Wonder Woman as 'the most powerful natural immortal being' in the DCU

    The point is that Superman is invulnerable (until he isn't), Phantom Stranger is all powerful (until he isn't) and the lasso is unbreakable (until it isn't).

    At the moment, btw, Perpetua is the immortal creator of the DCU's multiverse.

    You don't get to decide who is immortal and who isn't. DC decides and has repeated throughout various storyline that numerous characters are immortal.

    Likewise, DC has repeatedly said throughout its history that the lasso is 'unbreakable' (at least as much as anything is unbreakable/undefeatable in stories)

    Now, if you have citations/evidence where DC has ever said that the only immortal beings in the DC are the Presence and Spectre, please present them (the key word in this request is 'only'). Likewise, the lasso has only ever been broken twice in DC continuity (Trinity and Red Son are 'what if' stories), and those two occured when Diana had to deal with issues regarding what was and was not true.

    No one in the history of the DCU, including gods, new gods, heroes or villains has ever physically broken it.

    To posit 'well, X could break it if he/she/it wanted to' is theory.

    DC just made it clear - lasso>Phantom Stranger.

    I understand you might not like it, but that doesn't make it false.

  3. #273
    Incredible Member Incognito's Avatar
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    I never see Wonder Woman as being OP. Superman, Flash and Batman are better in terms of strength/toughness, speed and strategic planning respectively but she is not far off from them, also she is pretty much the all-rounder of the Justice League, plus her combat reflexes, fighting techniques and natural instincts as well as her access to mystically-imbued paraphernalia and an army of Amazons makes her the most dangerous of them in terms of her powers, skills and experiences.

    IIRC, although I could be wrong. Wonder Woman struggled in terms of fighting Phantom Stranger until she uses the Lasso of Truth on him. If the Lasso of Truth could work on Metron (a New God, who are supposed to be more powerful than the old gods), then it should be able to work on PS, if WW could get something out of him despite being imbued by The Presence. Maybe it was The Presence's plan or something, don't know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
    Last edited by Incognito; 07-25-2020 at 09:36 AM.

  4. #274
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Though I believe that any serious take on Wonder Woman would leave Batman in the dust when it comes to strategic planning. One of her patrons is Athena, the goddess of foresight and strategy.

    Batman the superplanner is really a modern take to justify his inclusion in the Justice League.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovan2013 View Post
    I never see Wonder Woman as being OP. Superman, Flash and Batman are better in terms of strength/toughness, speed and strategic planning respectively but she is not far off from them, also she is pretty much the all-rounder of the Justice League, plus her combat reflexes, fighting techniques and natural instincts as well as her access to mystically-imbued paraphernalia and an army of Amazons makes her the most dangerous of them in terms of her powers, skills and experiences.

    IIRC, although I could be wrong. Wonder Woman struggled in terms of fighting Phantom Stranger until she uses the Lasso of Truth on him. If the Lasso of Truth could work on Metron (a New God, who are supposed to be more powerful than the old gods), then it should be able to work on PS, if WW could get something out of him despite being imbued by The Presence. Maybe it was The Presence's plan or something, don't know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
    I think Wonder Woman should be the wisest member in the Justice League.

  6. #276
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Though I believe that any serious take on Wonder Woman would leave Batman in the dust when it comes to strategic planning. One of her patrons is Athena, the goddess of foresight and strategy.

    Batman the superplanner is really a modern take to justify his inclusion in the Justice League.
    I agree strategic planning should be in Wonder Woman's wheelhouse over Batman's. Probably Superman too who is a more natural leader than Batman or else should be, and he should defer to Diana as well. Batman's skill sets would be stealth and deductive reasoning to think of outside the box solutions or to get in villains heads, which I wouldn't consider superpowers either or that those need justification to include him in the JL (he got by without being OTT Batgod pre-Crisis).

    But I wouldn't consider her wisdom or loving heart super powers, just natural parts of her personality. I've never really liked Athena and Aphrodite giving her those gifts, it comes across as them "programming" personality traits into her. It unintentionally reinforces the inhuman golem stuff a bit. Ideally I'd like Athena to aid Hippolyta in sculpting the infant, Aphrodite bring her to life and then let Artemis, Demeter, Hestia and Hermes bestow gifts/powers. Her loving nature and wisdom should be a natural part of her personality tied to her upbringing and education.

  7. #277
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    She is mortal....

    I am NOT using the Movie Version of Thor!

    I only tell you how it should have worked with the lasso..

    In-Canon Feats are ridiculous and mean NOTHING!! BECAUSE and now READ!!

    Phantom Stranger is the most powerful being in DC behind Elaine,Presence,Spectre,Michael and Lucifer..
    Not even "Gods" like Zeus or Darkseid come close to him in terms of powers.

    So if you compare Superman being captured by the Lasso with capturing Phantom Stranger you are comparing holding a pencil with holding the world.

    You simply dont know who the Phantom Stranger is...
    She is immortal...

    Then show me a scan of Hela breaking Thor's hammer. And since we are on this topic the hammer is made from Uru, a metal that is incredibly durable but not once said to be indestructible. The lasso works different...

    You keep giving me this list like it means something and its not even true. Perpetua is currently the grandmaster creator of the multiverse, not the Presence so she is the most powerful not it.

    Oddly enough the lasso has done that, held the world.

    I know who the Stranger is, as Gaelforce pointed out, he's at his most used a plot device. Stranger is whatever a writer or editor needs him to be at what time. He has no singular defining origin, it changes as the universe changes. Its clear you don't like what happened, but it can happen and Diana and her lasso have the feats to prove that she could do it.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  8. #278
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    While people are still stuck on the Stranger thing....I don't think I've said this yet but if I did please ignore me and carry on.


    Putting aside the fact that he's a rarely used plot device character, there's only been one story I've found where he works on a multiversal scale and has knowledge beyond his own reality. And that was JLA/Avengers, and that story's position in continuity is shaky to start with, and was also discredited by a Swamp Thing annual shortly after the mini.

    I may have missed stories in my short bit of research but if the Stranger is limited to one earth then he's definitely not as powerful as a lot of other characters in the DCU. He might be plot device powerful on his earth but there's plenty of others who are plot device powerful on *every* earth, and Diana has beat the crap out of several of those beings. If she can hold her own in a battle against Darkseid while on Apokolips, then the Stranger isn't beyond her.

    See, this is why I don't like the Presence. It's a thin disguise for the christian god, and since that's an active faith people get all uppity about anything related to it.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  9. #279
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    While people are still stuck on the Stranger thing....I don't think I've said this yet but if I did please ignore me and carry on.


    Putting aside the fact that he's a rarely used plot device character, there's only been one story I've found where he works on a multiversal scale and has knowledge beyond his own reality. And that was JLA/Avengers, and that story's position in continuity is shaky to start with, and was also discredited by a Swamp Thing annual shortly after the mini.

    I may have missed stories in my short bit of research but if the Stranger is limited to one earth then he's definitely not as powerful as a lot of other characters in the DCU. He might be plot device powerful on his earth but there's plenty of others who are plot device powerful on *every* earth, and Diana has beat the crap out of several of those beings. If she can hold her own in a battle against Darkseid while on Apokolips, then the Stranger isn't beyond her.

    See, this is why I don't like the Presence. It's a thin disguise for the christian god, and since that's an active faith people get all uppity about anything related to it.
    Yeah, kind of weird people are treating the Presence, and Phantom Stranger to a lesser degree, like it's a well-defined character rather than a plot device akin to Doomsday.

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    While people are still stuck on the Stranger thing....I don't think I've said this yet but if I did please ignore me and carry on.


    Putting aside the fact that he's a rarely used plot device character, there's only been one story I've found where he works on a multiversal scale and has knowledge beyond his own reality. And that was JLA/Avengers, and that story's position in continuity is shaky to start with, and was also discredited by a Swamp Thing annual shortly after the mini.

    I may have missed stories in my short bit of research but if the Stranger is limited to one earth then he's definitely not as powerful as a lot of other characters in the DCU. He might be plot device powerful on his earth but there's plenty of others who are plot device powerful on *every* earth, and Diana has beat the crap out of several of those beings. If she can hold her own in a battle against Darkseid while on Apokolips, then the Stranger isn't beyond her.

    See, this is why I don't like the Presence. It's a thin disguise for the christian god, and since that's an active faith people get all uppity about anything related to it.
    For all intents and purposes you are arguing for her to be OP. What you and others are doing is downplaying the Presence and The Phantom Stranger to argue why its perfectly fine for Wonder Woman to defeat them. So who or what is beyond her at this point, who can't she beat in a fight with all this power you want her to have? This is right up there with Storm fans who want her to be the be all and end all in power scale in the MU. Wonder Woman fans seem to want the same thing. An unbeatable, undefeated, all-powerful being who stomps everyone. So every story must now be about some vast cosmic diety to even give Diana a decent challenge, it's insane but that's appears to be what some fans want nowadays. No rivals or equals, no suggestions that someone could be more powerful or better. At this point what is left for Wonder Woman to overcome, after punking out The Stranger and getting "God" to back down what's next?

  11. #281
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    For all intents and purposes you are arguing for her to be OP. What you and others are doing is downplaying the Presence and The Phantom Stranger to argue why its perfectly fine for Wonder Woman to defeat them. So who or what is beyond her at this point, who can't she beat in a fight with all this power you want her to have? This is right up there with Storm fans who want her to be the be all and end all in power scale in the MU. Wonder Woman fans seem to want the same thing. An unbeatable, undefeated, all-powerful being who stomps everyone. So every story must now be about some vast cosmic diety to even give Diana a decent challenge, it's insane but that's appears to be what some fans want nowadays. No rivals or equals, no suggestions that someone could be more powerful or better. At this point what is left for Wonder Woman to overcome, after punking out The Stranger and getting "God" to back down what's next?
    So you're unhappy that Wonder woman is the 'unbeatable undefeated all-powerful being" who stomped....an unbeatable, undefeated, all-powerful being?

    This is the same Wonder Woman, btw, who nearly choked to death on her own blood when she got hit by a bullet that ricocheted off of Superman's chest, so...no, she's not all powerful by any stretch of the imagination.

    She has one of, if not the most powerful weapon in the DCU, and, in one instance, she managed to beat the vaguely undefined plot device who had previously been taken down by a powerful artifact weapon in the DCU.

  12. #282
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    For all intents and purposes you are arguing for her to be OP. What you and others are doing is downplaying the Presence and The Phantom Stranger to argue why its perfectly fine for Wonder Woman to defeat them. So who or what is beyond her at this point, who can't she beat in a fight with all this power you want her to have? This is right up there with Storm fans who want her to be the be all and end all in power scale in the MU. Wonder Woman fans seem to want the same thing. An unbeatable, undefeated, all-powerful being who stomps everyone. So every story must now be about some vast cosmic diety to even give Diana a decent challenge, it's insane but that's appears to be what some fans want nowadays. No rivals or equals, no suggestions that someone could be more powerful or better. At this point what is left for Wonder Woman to overcome, after punking out The Stranger and getting "God" to back down what's next?
    I really don't know how to explain it in plainer terms, but I'll try a last time.

    Okay. First off. There is *no such thing* as "over powered." This entire concept you're arguing about? It's not real. There are only antagonists who do not adequately challenge the protagonist. So Diana is only "over powered" if she only ever fights threats that can not hurt or defeat her. Which doesn't happen; Diana's rogues are all dangerous to her physically, mentally, emotionally, or some combination of the three. If the protagonist can be hurt/challenged by the threat, then the protagonist is not over powered. Therefore, Diana is not over powered.

    This discussion should have ended with a simple "Can Diana's villains hurt her? Yes, so she's not OP."

    So this entire argument is a fool's errand in the first place (and I'm a fool too, for still posting in it). Seriously, study creative writing, you'll learn that "over powered" is not a thing, there's simply underwhelming antagonist threats. The entire concept of "over powered" is a f*cking illusion, stop buying into it.

    As for the Presence, I didn't say anything even relatively close to "Diana can fight the Presence" and I don't think anyone else has either. What I *did* say is that I dislike the Presence because it's an obvious stand in for the christian god and people end up treating it like their religion is on the comic book page; they can't separate it from their faith and we end up in ridiculous "my god is better than your god" discussions like this.

    As for the Stranger....the fact that he's in this discussion at all boggles my mind. What a Z-list character to bring into the debate! I mean, if it were the Spectre I could understand it, that guy at least matters and has feats beyond "I look at stuff and know things." But the Stranger? He's just a seldom-used exposition machine meant to dump info for the readers and occasionally provide a hand-wave dues ex machina. He is above the physical abilities of mortals and blessed with knowledge that transcends the timeline, but is seemingly limited to the singular earth he exists on, which makes him less powerful than everything that exists in the god sphere of the multiverse map (our current authority on DC cosmology). Even if we accept that the Presence is all powerful, his agents are not, otherwise the Spectre would never be imprisoned, Zauriel would have done all the League's work for them and ended crime forever, etc. At best we can place the Stranger in the realm of the demigods; beings limited to their singular earth but with great power derived from higher dimensional sources.

    Guess who else is a demigod limited to a single earth but with great power derived from higher sources? Diana. Now, the Stranger's role is to watch but not interfere and he's durable enough to do that, and I doubt Diana could take him down physically (though his inability to act means he can't defeat her either). But that doesn't seem to be the debate; the debate seems to be about the lasso and whether it works on him. The lasso was forged by a actual god, in the god sphere (Olympus to be precise), and works on actual, literal gods, so the idea that it wouldn't work on a demigod-esque character like the Stranger is just fallacy. The Golden Perfect works on Darkseid, so it'll work on anything short of a Monitor (and that includes the Stranger).

    Diana is a demigod who fights gods and beings with god-like power, so she's not over powered. The Stranger falls into that category. So what's the real debate here? It's just "my god is better than your god." The entire premise of your argument is flawed. Diana cannot defeat the Stranger but is still OP...but the Stranger who is more powerful than the OP heroine *isn't* OP? That doesn't make any sense.

    If your argument is just "I don't like powerful characters" then Diana, Clark, Barry, Hal, Thor, Hulk, Silver Surfer, the FF as a collective whole, and half the X-Men are not for you and I question why you're here. Instead of wanting to change Diana to fit your sensibilities and screw over all of us who enjoy powerful characters, try reading Aquaman, Spider-Man, or Daredevil. Avoid Batman; if you think Diana is OP you'll really hate Batman.
    Last edited by Ascended; 07-28-2020 at 09:27 AM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  13. #283
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Avoid Batman; if you think Diana is OP you'll really hate Batman.
    That closing shot deserves a mic drop.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  14. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Let me put this simply.

    The lasso is, by definition of DC Comics, unbreakable.

    Everything in comics is unbreakable/invulnerable/undefeatable until they are broken/injured/defeated.

    It's a simple rule and it applies to everyone and everything in comics.

    That includes the Phantom Stranger who was defeated, for example, by the Spear of Destiny.

    You can't set a rule and then arbitrarily decide that it doesn't apply to a character you like, especially when it's been proven already that artifacts in DC can harm him.

    You and say 'he's in a class to break it,' and I can counter with 'the lasso is in a class to defeat him' as it has defeated gods in the past.

    Phantom Stranger at this point in time (until DC re-writes him again) is a cursed Judas. He has also been 'the wandering Jew,' and afallen angel. However, his true origin, nature or extent of his powers have never been fully defined and change from writer to writer. He is, more often than not, a plot device; DCs version of 'The Watcher' (who was immortal until he wasn't )

    Stranger is (or has been) part of the Quintessence, which puts him on the same 'level' as Shazam, Ganthet, Zeus and Highfather.

    Another version puts him on an equal footing with Pandora and the Question when he was brought before and judged by the council of wizards.

    His place in the DCU, his power level and his authority are all over the place. He's cursed by the Presence, he's a neutral angel, he's judged and damned by the council of wizards, he's part of a council of immortals, etc. Essentially, he is whatever the writers and editors at DC need at any given moment to move the plot along.

    Btw, CBR listed Wonder Woman as 'the most powerful natural immortal being' in the DCU

    The point is that Superman is invulnerable (until he isn't), Phantom Stranger is all powerful (until he isn't) and the lasso is unbreakable (until it isn't).

    At the moment, btw, Perpetua is the immortal creator of the DCU's multiverse.

    You don't get to decide who is immortal and who isn't. DC decides and has repeated throughout various storyline that numerous characters are immortal.

    Likewise, DC has repeatedly said throughout its history that the lasso is 'unbreakable' (at least as much as anything is unbreakable/undefeatable in stories)

    Now, if you have citations/evidence where DC has ever said that the only immortal beings in the DC are the Presence and Spectre, please present them (the key word in this request is 'only'). Likewise, the lasso has only ever been broken twice in DC continuity (Trinity and Red Son are 'what if' stories), and those two occured when Diana had to deal with issues regarding what was and was not true.

    No one in the history of the DCU, including gods, new gods, heroes or villains has ever physically broken it.

    To posit 'well, X could break it if he/she/it wanted to' is theory.

    DC just made it clear - lasso>Phantom Stranger.

    I understand you might not like it, but that doesn't make it false.
    You dont decide who is immortal and who not...

    And fact is only two beings are immortal: Presence and Spectre

    Gods,villains,new gods,heroes,villains...are classificable...Spectre,Presence,Michael,Lucifer,E laine,Phantom Stranger are to powerful to put in classes..
    This was also said by DC...

    Day of Vengeance etc. made him COMPLETELY equal to the Spectre...
    He was also shown to be able to kill Mayan Gods etc.

    There was the encounter of Spectre and Phantom Stranger and NEITHER of the two gained an advantage until Presence interfered in the form of a dog..


    If you accept that a simple mortal like Diana can restrain the Phantom Stranger who is classified as being superior to "Gods" like Zeus,Hera,Darkseid etc. than you also have to accept that Robin chops Darkseid in half...


    Actually I even see Robin chopping Darkseid in half as more realistic, since the power difference of Darkseid and Robin is smaller than Phantom Stranger vs Diana..

  15. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    As for the Stranger....the fact that he's in this discussion at all boggles my mind. What a Z-list character to bring into the debate! I mean, if it were the Spectre I could understand it, that guy at least matters and has feats beyond "I look at stuff and know things." But the Stranger? He's just a seldom-used exposition machine meant to dump info for the readers and occasionally provide a hand-wave dues ex machina. He is above the physical abilities of mortals and blessed with knowledge that transcends the timeline, but is seemingly limited to the singular earth he exists on, which makes him less powerful than everything that exists in the god sphere of the multiverse map (our current authority on DC cosmology). Even if we accept that the Presence is all powerful, his agents are not, otherwise the Spectre would never be imprisoned, Zauriel would have done all the League's work for them and ended crime forever, etc. At best we can place the Stranger in the realm of the demigods; beings limited to their singular earth but with great power derived from higher dimensional sources.

    Guess who else is a demigod limited to a single earth but with great power derived from higher sources? Diana. Now, the Stranger's role is to watch but not interfere and he's durable enough to do that, and I doubt Diana could take him down physically (though his inability to act means he can't defeat her either). But that doesn't seem to be the debate; the debate seems to be about the lasso and whether it works on him. The lasso was forged by a actual god, in the god sphere (Olympus to be precise), and works on actual, literal gods, so the idea that it wouldn't work on a demigod-esque character like the Stranger is just fallacy. The Golden Perfect works on Darkseid, so it'll work on anything short of a Monitor (and that includes the Stranger).

    Diana is a demigod who fights gods and beings with god-like power, so she's not over powered. The Stranger falls into that category. So what's the real debate here? It's just "my god is better than your god." The entire premise of your argument is flawed. Diana cannot defeat the Stranger but is still OP...but the Stranger who is more powerful than the OP heroine *isn't* OP? That doesn't make any sense.
    Sorry, what??
    You dont know the Phantom Stranger its ok and you are a Diana Fan...Ok...

    But speaking the reality:

    1. In Day of Vengeance we have seen that Spectre and Phantom Stranger are absolutely equal in offensive and defensive power...
    Phantom Stranger has his feats (Mayan God etc.)
    You should read about him....

    2. Stranger is around place Nr.5:
    1 Presence
    2 Elaine
    3 Michael+Lucifer
    5 Phantom Stranger

    3. Presence,Phantom Stranger,Spectre,Lucifer,Elaine,Michael are ABOVE gods like Zeus,Darkseid, so it doesnt matter if the lasso was wielded or has constrained weak "Gods" like Zeus,Hera,Darkseid etc.

    4. The "Problem" is straight forward that the Phantom Stranger is so OP, that he CANT interfere...
    If he would be allowed to interfere he could simply look at Darkseid,Zeus,Hera,Aphrodite etc. etc. and they would be whiped out of existence

    So it makes no sense, that a weak mortal like Diana, who isnt even at the level of a Darkseid can restrain a being whose powers is out of any classification like the Phantom Stranger itself..

    And the question is ridiculous:
    Phantom Stranger is logically overpowered, but
    a) Therefore he is limited-he is limited because else he could simply whipe out Gods,end the crisis etc. etc. etc. etc.
    This is the concept of him: Being more powerful than Gods, but limited to make him not omnipotent
    b) Phantom Stranger ISNT a regular
    c) Before it was like this:
    You had categories:
    I Beings who are above Gods: Spectre,Presence,Lucifer,Michael,Phantom Stranger....
    II Gods
    III Mortals like Diana,Flash,Superman....

    So if Diana can restrain Phantom Stranger,it means that Robin can also kill Darkseid etc. etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    While people are still stuck on the Stranger thing....I don't think I've said this yet but if I did please ignore me and carry on.

    Putting aside the fact that he's a rarely used plot device character, there's only been one story I've found where he works on a multiversal scale and has knowledge beyond his own reality. And that was JLA/Avengers, and that story's position in continuity is shaky to start with, and was also discredited by a Swamp Thing annual shortly after the mini.

    I may have missed stories in my short bit of research but if the Stranger is limited to one earth then he's definitely not as powerful as a lot of other characters in the DCU. He might be plot device powerful on his earth but there's plenty of others who are plot device powerful on *every* earth, and Diana has beat the crap out of several of those beings. If she can hold her own in a battle against Darkseid while on Apokolips, then the Stranger isn't beyond her.

    See, this is why I don't like the Presence. It's a thin disguise for the christian god, and since that's an active faith people get all uppity about anything related to it.
    Day of Vengeance...

    Spectre was amped and Phantom Stranger and Spectre were on the same level...

    Besides there were situations were the Phantom Stranger killed an Mayan God and he was durable enough to tank the magic of Spectre,Dr.Fate and Eclipso combined...

    Problem is simple that if a weak demigodess like Diana is able to restrain a being who is out of any classification like the Phantom Stranger we then also have to accept that Robin might chop Darkseid in pieces...

    The truth is simple: If we accept that a simple mortal like Diana can restrain a being who is above "Gods" like Darkseid and Zeus there are no limits and every character can do what he or she wants..

    Before it was simple, because there were categories:
    1 Untouchables like Spectre,Phantom Stranger,Lucifer,Elaine,Presence....and they were stronger than any other beings
    2 "Gods" like Zeus,Darkseid,Hera....
    3 Mortals like Superman,Diana,Flash etc.

    and no character under a certain category could defeat one of the category above (ok-with magical weapons yes), but now this is broken..

    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    I know who the Stranger is, as Gaelforce pointed out, he's at his most used a plot device. Stranger is whatever a writer or editor needs him to be at what time. He has no singular defining origin, it changes as the universe changes. Its clear you don't like what happened, but it can happen and Diana and her lasso have the feats to prove that she could do it.
    No-it doesnt...

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