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  1. #61
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Can't speak for others but my dislike of Jason is rooted in him being shoehorned into WW's origin, reinforcing the Zeus-daddy status, and Diana taking a backseat to him and his largely uninteresting stories in her only title. Him being stronger or more powerful than her was just of symptom of that.
    Yeah, being upset that a male character is presented as being more powerful than Wonder Woman in her own book really needs no justification.


    Quote Originally Posted by cgh View Post
    Back on topic: overpowered heroes are boring because it's difficult to build stories with uncertainty and tension around them. WW has essentially no weaknesses and is dull as a result. It's not unique to DC. Marvel has this problem with the Silver Surfer, for example. Personally, I'd enjoy a line-wide depowering of ultra-powerful heroes to their Golden Age standards.
    Golden Age standards would not solve this perceived problem. Aside from not being able to fly yet, Wonder Woman was more or less as strong back then as she is now. Ditto Captain Marvel and Superman, the latter having leveled up fairly quickly.

    The main influence of the Golden and Silver age that would should probably take is less concern over OTT power levels. Scaling down characters like Superman and Wonder Woman just to make story telling "easier" (lazy) is more for the writers benefit than the character's. New 52 Action is really the only time it's been done well for Superman, and a point was made not to have it last long. The best writers can challenge Superman without powering him down (Moore, Morrison, Maggin), no reason the same can't hold true for Wonder Woman.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 07-16-2020 at 04:30 PM.

  2. #62
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Wonder Woman is up there at the top in terms of strength.

    Sure, WW has superior fighting skills and magical weapons.

    But Diana has vast super-strength which many people try to discount.

  3. #63
    Mighty Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yeah, being upset that a male character is presented as being more powerful than Wonder Woman in her own book really needs no justification.




    Golden Age standards would not solve this perceived problem. Aside from not being able to fly yet, Wonder Woman was more or less as strong back then as she is now. Ditto Captain Marvel and Superman, the latter having leveled up fairly quickly.

    The main influence of the Golden and Silver age that would should probably take is less concern over OTT power levels. Scaling down characters like Superman and Wonder Woman just to make story telling "easier" (lazy) is more for the writers benefit than the character's. New 52 Action is really the only time it's been done well for Superman, and a point was made not to have it last long. The best writers can challenge Superman without powering him down (Moore, Morrison, Maggin), no reason the same can't hold true for Wonder Woman.
    Yeah, comparing Jason to this is apples and oranges.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Yeah, comparing Jason to this is apples and oranges.
    Leaving out the whole power level issue the vast majority of people were upset at Jason's very existence. Just the idea that a male was involved in the Wonder Woman/Amazon mythos was enough for people to wanna riot. But many love it when a previously unknown female relative is introduced into a male character's story. Starting all the way back from Mary Marvel to Supergirl to She Hulk, and into current time with X23 and Shuri. Yes some complain when male characters are killed off, retired or replaced by female characters or are the females are made to be more powerful, however the vast majority of those characters have developed into popular characters and have a sizable fanbase. Jason didn't get that chance, he was hated from the beginning and didn't get the chance to develop. If a new female relative was introduced now for some major character I firmly believe that they would be given a far better chance to establish themselves than Jason got, and any criticism of said character would be met with cries of sexism and misogyny.
    Last edited by The tall man; 07-16-2020 at 05:18 PM.

  5. #65
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Leaving out the whole power level issue the vast majority of people were upset at Jason's very existence. Just the idea that a male was involved in the Wonder Woman/Amazon mythos was enough for people to wanna riot. But many love it when a previously unknown female relative is introduced into a male character's story. Starting all the way back from Mary Marvel to Supergirl to She Hulk, and into current time with X23 and Shuri. Yes some complain when male characters are killed off, retired or replaced by female characters or are the females are made to be more powerful, however the vast majority of those characters have developed into popular characters and have a sizable fanbase. Jason didn't get that chance, he was hated from the beginning and didn't get the chance to develop. If a new female relative was introduced now for some major character I firmly believe that they would be given a far better chance to establish themselves than Jason got, and any criticism of said character would be met with cries of sexism and misogyny.
    Because the vast majority of the main superhero franchises are lead by men. Giving a female POV is valuable for the male dominated franchises because it helps act as a gateway. This is why someone like Supergirl is far more valuable to Superman than Jason is to Wonder Woman. There is also the fact that Supergirl, Batgirl, Mary and She-Hulk are distaff counterparts to male heroes: great characters in their own right, but not able to stand 100% on their own. Wonder Woman is basically all we have between the Big Two of a unique Alpha superhero who is the lead of her franchise, a franchise designed to flip the script and give most of the important roles to women (with Steve filling the gender flipped "token female" role). Even Carol Danvers inherited her current mantle from a male character and falls under the Avengers umbrella, she isn't a solo icon like Wonder Woman.

    People rejected Jason because he offers nothing of value to this franchise, which has repeatedly had to deal with authors trying to downplay the female dominance in this ONE comic as far back as Kanigher. Look how big of an icon someone like Sailor Moon is, and how nobody asks for more men in her stories. There's a reason for that.

  6. #66
    Mighty Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Leaving out the whole power level issue the vast majority of people were upset at Jason's very existence. Just the idea that a male was involved in the Wonder Woman/Amazon mythos was enough for people to wanna riot. But many love it when a previously unknown female relative is introduced into a male character's story. Starting all the way back from Mary Marvel to Supergirl to She Hulk, and into current time with X23 and Shuri. Yes some complain when male characters are killed off, retired or replaced by female characters or are the females are made to be more powerful, however the vast majority of those characters have developed into popular characters and have a sizable fanbase. Jason didn't get that chance, he was hated from the beginning and didn't get the chance to develop. If a new female relative was introduced now for some major character I firmly believe that they would be given a far better chance to establish themselves than Jason got, and any criticism of said character would be met with cries of sexism and misogyny.
    I don't think Jason brings anything to the table for the WW franchise that isn't fulfilled by characters already have a history there; Male supporting character? Steve, Sibling? Donna or Nubia, even Achilles/Olympian already did the "gender-switched counterpart to the main hero" trope. Her taking a backseat to him is especially notable in a mythos where it was intended women and men would be switched in their traditional roles in superhero fiction. The characters you listed I would say they provide at least an interesting dynamic to the franchises they were introduced to that Jason doesn't.
    Last edited by Gaius; 07-16-2020 at 07:03 PM.

  7. #67
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Jason isn't hated because of that but because he added nothing. We also had the fact Hippoltya abandoned him. He was more important than his sister. Got tricked twice. He added nothing to her supporting cast. We had the fact Nubia had a well-rounded arc. Jason just got dumped due to New 52. The female characters in women did things better. Jason was going to replace Donna and Nubia because why not. Dc was giving Diana an all-male cast. Zeus was her father and the reasons for her powers. Ares was how she got trained. Jason was her twin taken away from her. All of the things fit within the other all the other female cast. Jason was boring and did nothing. Unlike Batman or Superman, all her cast just keeps getting made new. Not returning old cast
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 07-16-2020 at 06:29 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgh View Post

    Back on topic: overpowered heroes are boring because it's difficult to build stories with uncertainty and tension around them. WW has essentially no weaknesses and is dull as a result.


    Last edited by Agent Z; 07-16-2020 at 06:31 PM.

  9. #69
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Yea bullets are her weakness. Despite taking worse things. This is why I often thing. I don't mind if they go through her but that they can't kill her that easily. She has survived her arms cut off but no bullets. She has quick healing but not take a bullet. I'm not saying she should be superman and bullets fly off her. Rather they can't kill her. pierce her okay.

  10. #70
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Not reading all these pages, just tossing in my two cents.

    The concept of "OP" is basically an illusion. It's not real. It looks real because some writers (and fans) think it is, but there is no such thing as being over powered. And if you think there is, then you need to take some more writing courses. This is fiction; *nothing* is impossible, therefore nothing can be too powerful (though possibly beyond the scope of your own imagination, in which case you're writing the wrong story). All that matters is the consistency of the story's internal logic and emotional honesty.

    Make me fight a child, and I will look OP; make me fight a trained SEAL and he's the one who looks OP (or she; do the SEALS accept women yet?).

    Diana would be OP if all she did was fight un-trained men armed with kitchen utensils. But she fights gods, monsters, super humans....the majority of which are as powerful as she is, some of whom are more powerful, and some who surpass her in only a few critical areas, which still generates viable conflict and various kinds of threat.

    And within the context of the DCU and her peers, Diana isn't over powered....she's simply better than most. And she's still just one high ranking Alpha among many. Among her peers we count a guy who can unravel the entire multiverse by taking a jog, a sun god who's biggest problem is deciding what *not* to do because he can essentially accomplish anything he wants, a guy who can literally make his every thought real, and any number of mages, nuclear men, and other reality benders who can change the fabric of nature itself. And one "normal" guy who can supposedly defeat them all if you give him a ten minute head start.

    Writers who can't handle Diana or her peers....it's not because the character is too powerful, it's because the writer lacks the imagination or desire to create a proper narrative challenge. Bottom line; OP is fake news.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  11. #71
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    This thread has to be a very late April Fool's joke.

    People are honestly complaining that Wonder Woman would be allegedly OP, but then claim Powergirl or Supergirl would be stronger than her, a perception someone could easily use as an example(and there are actually plenty of far better other examples) of how much Wonder Woman got misrepresented in the past. Because just like Superman is theoretically supposed to be the strongest male DC superhero is Wonder Woman theoretically supposed to be the strongest female superhero, which becomes even more interessting considering how much DC always at a cerain point liked to make sure that Superman is actually superior to Supergirl(which is just one of many differences to Jason).

    Even more ridiculous is what we're actually talking about here, one moment with magical context where she does something that Batman(this shouldn't even need to get explained), Flash(this also not in regards of lifting, Aquaman(and even that not, until DC fully commits to actually put him into the strength tier Wonder Woman should be in) and Superman(and here comes the magic into play), some others were she pulls a typical Batman, a not really related moment with Phantom Stranger and some finally decent feats. While we had in the past Superman with ridiculous feats like breaking planets from flying off let alone some certain sun-dipped madness(and of course quite a few moments were he is the best around), Flash basically trancending speed, Hal Jordan overwilling willpower and so on, while Wonder Woman was performing basically mid tier feats outside of some fights. Let alone Superman League in the DCEU withthe by far biggest audience.

    You can come back to complain when Wonder Woman has even just a quarter as many i am the best around moments as Superman or an actel as many as Batman, but until than is this kind of thread downright ludicrous.

  12. #72
    Spectacular Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    WHAT??????????
    https://www.cbr.com/wonder-woman-str...ce-league-men/
    Sorry-I didnt read the Comic-but here its written that Aquaman,Superman,Batman and Flash tried TOGETHER!!!! to move the boulder!!!! and COULDNT do it...
    Batman and Flash ok-BUT!!! making her lift something what AQUAMAN AND SUPERMAN couldnt lift TOGETHER??????!!!!!!



    Sorry-WHAT???

    She is displayed as being STRONGER,SMARTER than her Teammates TOGETHER.

    LIFTING something what Superman,Aquaman,Flash and Batman couldnt move together...
    BEING SMARTER than the male teammates together.....



    Not even close...

    Power Girl is STRONGER than Wonder Woman...
    Based on feats power girl is not stronger. And Diana has already fought her and defeated her.

    What's the problem with wondy getting some time in the spotlight? Literally every hero gets outclassed at times by others. It happens all the time. WW hasn't had much time in the spotlight in the jl comic, so this is refreshing. But that doesn't mean that the others will always play second field to her.
    Last edited by mystical41; 07-16-2020 at 08:18 PM.

  13. #73
    Spectacular Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    ww is a character that does not sell, does not do it now or 80 years ago, a character with the greatest achievement is being a woman, for some reason, he is part of the trinity, but aquaman with the same achievements as ww but man, is a joke. WW: superman physical level, best metahuman fighter, magic weapons, no weakness, not op. Superman: WW physical level, a useless fighter, arguably the worst in DC, 20 weaknesses and more and more every day, unarmed, the weakest mind in the comics (the character who has been controlled most of the time), Superman is op. WW is the darling of fans and DC (first part of my comment).
    She does sell and sold even better 80 years ago. Even with all the mishandling she has suffered more than once. She has been an icon in pop culture for decades. And has made and still makes a lot of money. Comic sales is just one little portion of the profit, especially nowadays. WW is far more successful as a brand than a comic title. With toys, merchandising, movies etc. And she is a pop culture icon for more than being a woman. The topics that she brought to the table were ahead of her time back in the 40s. Sexual liberation for women, LGBT content, equal rights etc in a very conservative era like the 40s. Just being a woman wouldn't be enough to pass the test of time and become a pop culture icon like WW has.
    Last edited by mystical41; 07-16-2020 at 08:22 PM.

  14. #74
    Spectacular Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    DC will informally say this but when it comes to actually showing it she's severely lacking

    Supergirl and most female kryptonians are actually stronger than her
    Then you get into the dumb stuff DC has written with Superman and she's too far behind
    That's why Wonder Woman has defeated both powergirl and supergirl right? The later she beat more than once. So no, WW is not far behind. At least not compared to the likes of PG and SG, who by your same logic can be considered far behind Superman if we go by feats.

  15. #75
    Spectacular Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Adding to what Denkota is saying she is now a Demi-Goddess

    The daughter of Zeus, trained by Ares, and raised in a female warrior society - if she isn't OP then there's something wrong.

    But that doesn't mean she infallible; remember she isn't bullet proof hence the bracelets. Supergirl or Powergirl are more powerful in regards to strength and durability, but Diana is the full package.

    She possesses the acuity for war and strategy, a more capable fighter than most DC heroes, and she is imbued with divinity.

    She is literally both Superman and Batman combined.
    The zeus origin can go anytime, i won't miss it. Diana used to have a far more unique origin and i would love to see it back.

    If we go by feats. Diana is not below powergirl and supergirl in power. But the thing i don't understand, is why some people make such a big deal out of the latest issues? It's been a long time since WW has been the center of a jl story. It's not like she will steal the spotlight from the others just because she had a big moment recently. Everybody should have a time and place to shine.
    Last edited by mystical41; 07-16-2020 at 08:36 PM.

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