Wonder Woman OP??

[Cruelrain]

DC will informally say this but when it comes to actually showing it she's severely lacking

Supergirl and most female kryptonians are actually stronger than her
Then you get into the dumb stuff DC has written with Superman and she's too far behind

That it's not true, maybe in the Pre Crisis or Golden age but WW also has feats like pulling the sun with her lasso etc (feats were really stupid in those years)

WW is not lacking against the female kryptonians, in the post crisis era Diana claimed that her and Power Girl are matched, and if we go by actual feats Wonder Woman has better lifting and reaction speed feats than her (even without high-ends) similar durability except for the bulletproof part but that's for what her bracelets are for.

Supergirl has never won a fight against WW, and if we go by N52 Diana easily showed that she's her superior in h2h and speed, the same happened in Rebirth.

Her similar stats, magical gear and skills is what puts her above the kryptonian chicks.

[WonderLight789]

Doomsdays kicked her ass twice and black adam easily beating her at slapping her away and koing her. Superman defeated them more often as easily tham she did.

I don't remember black adam koing her. I do remember however, Wonder Woman koing him in death metal. And i don't see the problem with WW having more moments where she shows her power. Previously she didn't use to do much in jl, and she is meant to be one of the heavy hitters.

[Masterff]

That's why Wonder Woman has defeated both powergirl and supergirl right? The later she beat more than once. So no, WW is not far behind. At least not compared to the likes of PG and SG, who by your same logic can be considered far behind Superman if we go by feats.

I dont understand the problem:
POWER GIRL IS!!!!!!!! STRONGER!!!!! than Wonder Woman, BUT!!!! she ISNT TRAINED as WONDER WOMAN!!!!

Its ridiculously easy:

Power Girl is stronger, BUT!!! she and also Superman werent trained as much as Wonder Woman was in fighting...

Based on feats power girl is not stronger. And Diana has already fought her and defeated her.

What's the problem with wondy getting some time in the spotlight? Literally every hero gets outclassed at times by others. It happens all the time. WW hasn't had much time in the spotlight in the jl comic, so this is refreshing. But that doesn't mean that the others will always play second field to her.

The Problem is not her getting spotlight!

Problem is:

1. https://www.cbr.com/justice-league-w...n-best-member/
Here she solves EASILY a situation using her intelligence, while the male members stand around etc.
She does it even by checking the GREEN LANTERN XENOTYPE directory, while GREEN LANTERN says that its not time for that...

This looks like as the males know only force, while the female one is smart and solves the situation without force.
Its even worse that she uses GREEN LANTERN XENOTYPE DIRECTORY, which suggest that its Green Lantern ressource which HE should have the Idea to use it etc.

2. https://www.cbr.com/wonder-woman-kil...eaks-presence/
This shows her "defeating" one of the most powerful beings and speaking to the PRESENCE itself...
Its not "normal" villain, god etc. its something ABOVE Doomsday,Darkseid etc. etc. etc.

3 https://www.cbr.com/wonder-woman-str...ce-league-men/
She seems to be STRONGER THAN AQUAMAN AND SUPERMAN combined
Which is just ridiculous if you dont explain it with Supermans weakness to magic, because otherwise she would be stronger than 2 of JL most powerful members combined

This thread has to be a very late April Fool's joke.

People are honestly complaining that Wonder Woman would be allegedly OP, but then claim Powergirl or Supergirl would be stronger than her, a perception someone could easily use as an example(and there are actually plenty of far better other examples) of how much Wonder Woman got misrepresented in the past. Because just like Superman is theoretically supposed to be the strongest male DC superhero is Wonder Woman theoretically supposed to be the strongest female superhero, which becomes even more interessting considering how much DC always at a cerain point liked to make sure that Superman is actually superior to Supergirl(which is just one of many differences to Jason).

Even more ridiculous is what we're actually talking about here, one moment with magical context where she does something that Batman(this shouldn't even need to get explained), Flash(this also not in regards of lifting, Aquaman(and even that not, until DC fully commits to actually put him into the strength tier Wonder Woman should be in) and Superman(and here comes the magic into play), some others were she pulls a typical Batman, a not really related moment with Phantom Stranger and some finally decent feats. While we had in the past Superman with ridiculous feats like breaking planets from flying off let alone some certain sun-dipped madness(and of course quite a few moments were he is the best around), Flash basically trancending speed, Hal Jordan overwilling willpower and so on, while Wonder Woman was performing basically mid tier feats outside of some fights. Let alone Superman League in the DCEU withthe by far biggest audience.

You can come back to complain when Wonder Woman has even just a quarter as many i am the best around moments as Superman or an actel as many as Batman, but until than is this kind of thread downright ludicrous.

1. not true, Power Girl is more powerful than Wonder Woman, but Wonder Woman was trained to fight and has therefore more skills in fighting and more experience.
I dont understand whats so difficult about that

2. Superman isnt the most powerful male hero..
SHAZAM is as powerful as he is and even more powerful because of Supermans weakness to magic
DAMAGE was said that he is probably even STRONGER than Superman
ORION
SPECTRE

3. That with Phantom Stranger should be IMPOSSIBLE for ALL MORTALS!!!!!
I would say the same if it would have been SUPERMAN or BATMAN etc.

4. https://www.cbr.com/justice-league-w...n-best-member/
This here makes it look like:
MALES using strength to solve problem
CLEVER FEMALE uses INTELLIGENCE

[Masterff]

Not reading all these pages, just tossing in my two cents.

The concept of "OP" is basically an illusion. It's not real. It looks real because some writers (and fans) think it is, but there is no such thing as being over powered. And if you think there is, then you need to take some more writing courses. This is fiction; *nothing* is impossible, therefore nothing can be too powerful (though possibly beyond the scope of your own imagination, in which case you're writing the wrong story). All that matters is the consistency of the story's internal logic and emotional honesty.

Make me fight a child, and I will look OP; make me fight a trained SEAL and he's the one who looks OP (or she; do the SEALS accept women yet?).

Diana would be OP if all she did was fight un-trained men armed with kitchen utensils. But she fights gods, monsters, super humans....the majority of which are as powerful as she is, some of whom are more powerful, and some who surpass her in only a few critical areas, which still generates viable conflict and various kinds of threat.

And within the context of the DCU and her peers, Diana isn't over powered....she's simply better than most. And she's still just one high ranking Alpha among many. Among her peers we count a guy who can unravel the entire multiverse by taking a jog, a sun god who's biggest problem is deciding what *not* to do because he can essentially accomplish anything he wants, a guy who can literally make his every thought real, and any number of mages, nuclear men, and other reality benders who can change the fabric of nature itself. And one "normal" guy who can supposedly defeat them all if you give him a ten minute head start.

Writers who can't handle Diana or her peers....it's not because the character is too powerful, it's because the writer lacks the imagination or desire to create a proper narrative challenge. Bottom line; OP is fake news.

Sorry, but the story with PHANTOM STRANGER should be IMPOSSIBLE for EVERY MORTAL...

Its simple:
PHANTOM STRANGER should be UNTOUCHABLE for all MORTALS and this INCLUDES DARKSEID AND ZEUS!!!

PRESENCE even more!!!

[Gaius]

Doomsday Clock - “Superman is the lynchpin of the DC multiverse”

Cool

Dark Knights: Metal/Death Metal - “Batman going evil is the greatest threat to the DC multiverse”

Love it

An issue of Justice League - “Wonder Woman can lift a rock”

Now hold on a minute, player

[Cruelrain]

I dont understand the problem:
POWER GIRL IS!!!!!!!! STRONGER!!!!! than Wonder Woman, BUT!!!! she ISNT TRAINED as WONDER WOMAN!!!!

Its ridiculously easy:

Power Girl is stronger, BUT!!! she and also Superman werent trained as much as Wonder Woman was in fighting...

But she's not... Could you post what strenght feats put her exactly above Diana?

By scaling and actual feats Wonder Woman is stronger than her, i would say that even Big Barda has better showing of strenght than Power Girl since she lifted the weight of a continent

Diana even stated that PW is at least as strong and as fast as her

I know this because i recently was involved in a Captain Marvel (Carol) and Power Girl fight in other site and Kara was "exposed" for not having actual raw strenght feats that can be compared to Wonder Woman who helped to move both the earth and the moon.

IMG_20200717_004632.jpg

if you say Kara is stronger than Diana because of her Kryptonian physiology that's NLF, since there are not feats to support that claim

[Masterff]

Jason isn't hated because of that but because he added nothing. We also had the fact Hippoltya abandoned him. He was more important than his sister. Got tricked twice. He added nothing to her supporting cast. We had the fact Nubia had a well-rounded arc. Jason just got dumped due to New 52. The female characters in women did things better. Jason was going to replace Donna and Nubia because why not. Dc was giving Diana an all-male cast. Zeus was her father and the reasons for her powers. Ares was how she got trained. Jason was her twin taken away from her. All of the things fit within the other all the other female cast. Jason was boring and did nothing. Unlike Batman or Superman, all her cast just keeps getting made new. Not returning old cast

I dont understand the problem.

Problem was for me more the following:
In PRE-FLASHPOINT Diana was made out of Clay and Cassandra was Zeus daughter.
This was ok and great for me, because it gave both characters something unique and you could later give Cassandra a higher power-level and probably more powers, because of her being daughter of Zeus.

In NEW52 this was changed and Diana became daughter of Zeus and Cassandra her granddaughter

This was the problem..

It added nothing to Diana while it was a HUGE problem for Cassandra who lost her "uniqueness" etc.

Another problem came up as they even gave Diana this GOD-MODE (with bracelets of).


I like Jason, what I find more problematic is the change of Diana being Zeus daughter and Cassandra her granddaughter

[WonderLight789]

I dont understand the problem:
POWER GIRL IS!!!!!!!! STRONGER!!!!! than Wonder Woman, BUT!!!! she ISNT TRAINED as WONDER WOMAN!!!!

Its ridiculously easy:

Power Girl is stronger, BUT!!! she and also Superman werent trained as much as Wonder Woman was in fighting...



The Problem is not her getting spotlight!

Problem is:

1. https://www.cbr.com/justice-league-w...n-best-member/
Here she solves EASILY a situation using her intelligence, while the male members stand around etc.
She does it even by checking the GREEN LANTERN XENOTYPE directory, while GREEN LANTERN says that its not time for that...

This looks like as the males know only force, while the female one is smart and solves the situation without force.
Its even worse that she uses GREEN LANTERN XENOTYPE DIRECTORY, which suggest that its Green Lantern ressource which HE should have the Idea to use it etc.

2. https://www.cbr.com/wonder-woman-kil...eaks-presence/
This shows her "defeating" one of the most powerful beings and speaking to the PRESENCE itself...
Its not "normal" villain, god etc. its something ABOVE Doomsday,Darkseid etc. etc. etc.

3 https://www.cbr.com/wonder-woman-str...ce-league-men/
She seems to be STRONGER THAN AQUAMAN AND SUPERMAN combined
Which is just ridiculous if you dont explain it with Supermans weakness to magic, because otherwise she would be stronger than 2 of JL most powerful members combined



1. not true, Power Girl is more powerful than Wonder Woman, but Wonder Woman was trained to fight and has therefore more skills in fighting and more experience.
I dont understand whats so difficult about that

2. Superman isnt the most powerful male hero..
SHAZAM is as powerful as he is and even more powerful because of Supermans weakness to magic
DAMAGE was said that he is probably even STRONGER than Superman
ORION
SPECTRE

3. That with Phantom Stranger should be IMPOSSIBLE for ALL MORTALS!!!!!
I would say the same if it would have been SUPERMAN or BATMAN etc.

4. https://www.cbr.com/justice-league-w...n-best-member/
This here makes it look like:
MALES using strength to solve problem
CLEVER FEMALE uses INTELLIGENCE

All i see in those links is WW finally having some moments to shine, after a long time being a background character in most jl stories. It doesn't mean she is "OP".

PG is not more powerful than WW. Feats are in WW's favor. And shazam hasn't been equal to Superman in a long time. In fact, shazam hasn't even done anything impressive in over a decade.

[Masterff]

Diana is among the most powerful superheroes DC has. If she isn't a close second behind Superman, the list of others between her and him is arguably very short (maybe only consisting of Supergirl and Captain Marvel). Her doing feats like this should be a non issue. She and Superman should be doing stuff like this 24/7.

Superman is difficult, because he can fly trough sun and become stronger...

You CANT!!! give a ranking list, since its not based on strength only and MAGIC,TELEPATHY,ENERGY BLASTS (maybe with nuclear energy), WEAPONS which adapt themselves to enemies etc. can change the order quickly...

I would rank: Martian Manhunter,Miss Martian,Blue Beetle,Captain Atom,Dr. Fate,Zatanna,Orion....

to say the truth Miss Martian is much more powerful than her:
Intangibility, Martian Vision which is like Heat Vision AND Telepathy...
She could KO Wonder Woman with telepathy in seconds....

The YJ ANIME Version of Miss Martian for example is probably the most powerful Superhero in the Anime...

For the same reason it matters when we see batgod in action. Its propping up one character at the expense of others. Its treating others with disrespect while saying see how awesome this character is; he/she can do things these other losers can't. When did having limitations and not being unbeatable become a bad thing? Is Diana being the most powerful, most perfect hero the only thing that makes her a great character? If any other character had straight up beaten the Phantom Stranger and punked out GOD I think people would have a problem with that, and rightfully so. Where do you go after that, who's left to beat after that? After the Stranger and GOD does she turn around and lose to Cheetah or Cirsei or whoever? I get her fans love these feats of the unbeatable Wonder Woman but don't pretend she's not OP as hell. At this point she's the most OP character in DC.

YES EXACTLY...

https://www.cbr.com/justice-league-w...n-best-member/

Problem here is that it looks like:
MALES using strength only to solve problems
SMART WONDER WOMAN uses her intelligence to solve the problem....

3 https://www.cbr.com/justice-league-b...smartest-hero/
Wonder Woman explains to Batman who/what Tartarus is!!
THIS IS SOMETHING WHICH YOU FIND IN THE INTERNET!!!

I mean really really???
Batman who has contingency plans, files etc. for EVERYONE needs WONDER WOMANS?? explanation???!!!

Magic isnt a weakness and superman has oclvertime resisted kyprtonite snd red sun effects throughtbstories where he grows and matures his abilites. Your making wonder woman sound like a mary sue.

MAGIC IS A WEAKNESS

KRYPTONITE IS A WEAKNESS-only Kingdom Come Superman is resistant to Kryptonite as far as I remember

RED SUN IS A WEAKNESS and REMAINS...Tell me stories where he resists its effect!! and NOT ONLY TEMPORARILY like NEW52 when he is on Krypton and relies on the stored Solar Energy.

EVEN SUPERBOY PRIME!!! has a weakness to RED SUNLIGHT!!!!!!!

Can't speak for others but my dislike of Jason is rooted in him being shoehorned into WW's origin, reinforcing the Zeus-daddy status, and Diana taking a backseat to him and his largely uninteresting stories in her only title. Him being stronger or more powerful than her was just a symptom of that.

Whats the problem with that?

REAL PROBLEM for me was more that in Pre-Flashpoint Cassandra was Zeus daughter and Diana made out of Clay
NEW52 changed it and Zeus became Dianas Father and Cassandras Zeus granddaughter...

[WonderLight789]

But she's not... Could you post what strenght feats put her exactly above Diana?

By scaling and actual feats Wonder Woman is stronger than her, i would say that even Big Barda has better showing of strenght than Power Girl since she lifted the weight of a continent

Diana even stated that PW is at least as strong and as fast as her

I know this because i recently was involved in a Captain Marvel (Carol) and Power Girl fight in other site and Kara was "exposed" for not having actual raw strenght feats that can be compared to Wonder Woman who helped to move both the earth and the moon.

IMG_20200717_004632.jpg

if you say Kara is stronger than Diana because of her Kryptonian physiology that's NLF, since there are not feats to support that claim

And in that comic fight Diana had with PG in Gail Simon run, the same writer later on said that she views WW as being above PG in strength. Diana has also been stated to be above Supergirl in power, both in N52 and Rebirth, and she defeated her in both continuities.

[mathew101281]

Superman is difficult, because he can fly trough sun and become stronger...

You CANT!!! give a ranking list, since its not based on strength only and MAGIC,TELEPATHY,ENERGY BLASTS (maybe with nuclear energy), WEAPONS which adapt themselves to enemies etc. can change the order quickly...

I would rank: Martian Manhunter,Miss Martian,Blue Beetle,Captain Atom,Dr. Fate,Zatanna,Orion....

to say the truth Miss Martian is much more powerful than her:
Intangibility, Martian Vision which is like Heat Vision AND Telepathy...
She could KO Wonder Woman with telepathy in seconds....

The YJ ANIME Version of Miss Martian for example is probably the most powerful Superhero in the Anime...



YES EXACTLY...

https://www.cbr.com/justice-league-w...n-best-member/

Problem here is that it looks like:
MALES using strength only to solve problems
SMART WONDER WOMAN uses her intelligence to solve the problem....

3 https://www.cbr.com/justice-league-b...smartest-hero/
Wonder Woman explains to Batman who/what Tartarus is!!
THIS IS SOMETHING WHICH YOU FIND IN THE INTERNET!!!

I mean really really???
Batman who has contingency plans, files etc. for EVERYONE needs WONDER WOMANS?? explanation???!!!



MAGIC IS A WEAKNESS

KRYPTONITE IS A WEAKNESS-only Kingdom Come Superman is resistant to Kryptonite as far as I remember

RED SUN IS A WEAKNESS and REMAINS...Tell me stories where he resists its effect!! and NOT ONLY TEMPORARILY like NEW52 when he is on Krypton and relies on the stored Solar Energy.

EVEN SUPERBOY PRIME!!! has a weakness to RED SUNLIGHT!!!!!!!



Whats the problem with that?

REAL PROBLEM for me was more that in Pre-Flashpoint Cassandra was Zeus daughter and Diana made out of Clay
NEW52 changed it and Zeus became Dianas Father and Cassandras Zeus granddaughter...

Wonder Woman is immune to telepathy.

[WonderLight789]

Superman is difficult, because he can fly trough sun and become stronger...

You CANT!!! give a ranking list, since its not based on strength only and MAGIC,TELEPATHY,ENERGY BLASTS (maybe with nuclear energy), WEAPONS which adapt themselves to enemies etc. can change the order quickly...

I would rank: Martian Manhunter,Miss Martian,Blue Beetle,Captain Atom,Dr. Fate,Zatanna,Orion....

to say the truth Miss Martian is much more powerful than her:
Intangibility, Martian Vision which is like Heat Vision AND Telepathy...
She could KO Wonder Woman with telepathy in seconds....

The YJ ANIME Version of Miss Martian for example is probably the most powerful Superhero in the Anime...



YES EXACTLY...

https://www.cbr.com/justice-league-w...n-best-member/

Problem here is that it looks like:
MALES using strength only to solve problems
SMART WONDER WOMAN uses her intelligence to solve the problem....

3 https://www.cbr.com/justice-league-b...smartest-hero/
Wonder Woman explains to Batman who/what Tartarus is!!
THIS IS SOMETHING WHICH YOU FIND IN THE INTERNET!!!

I mean really really???
Batman who has contingency plans, files etc. for EVERYONE needs WONDER WOMANS?? explanation???!!!



MAGIC IS A WEAKNESS

KRYPTONITE IS A WEAKNESS-only Kingdom Come Superman is resistant to Kryptonite as far as I remember

RED SUN IS A WEAKNESS and REMAINS...Tell me stories where he resists its effect!! and NOT ONLY TEMPORARILY like NEW52 when he is on Krypton and relies on the stored Solar Energy.

EVEN SUPERBOY PRIME!!! has a weakness to RED SUNLIGHT!!!!!!!



Whats the problem with that?

REAL PROBLEM for me was more that in Pre-Flashpoint Cassandra was Zeus daughter and Diana made out of Clay
NEW52 changed it and Zeus became Dianas Father and Cassandras Zeus granddaughter...

Nobody seems to have a problem when Superman is stated to be multiverse in some stories. Or even batman. But no, a woman with blessings from actual Gods, with another God as her father and magic unbreakable gear and weapons? No, there is no way she could be that powerful. But an alien acting like a solar battery and a rich man with issues can right? Sigh...............

[WonderLight789]

For the same reason it matters when we see batgod in action. Its propping up one character at the expense of others. Its treating others with disrespect while saying see how awesome this character is; he/she can do things these other losers can't. When did having limitations and not being unbeatable become a bad thing? Is Diana being the most powerful, most perfect hero the only thing that makes her a great character? If any other character had straight up beaten the Phantom Stranger and punked out GOD I think people would have a problem with that, and rightfully so. Where do you go after that, who's left to beat after that? After the Stranger and GOD does she turn around and lose to Cheetah or Cirsei or whoever? I get her fans love these feats of the unbeatable Wonder Woman but don't pretend she's not OP as hell. At this point she's the most OP character in DC.

Not. that is not the only thing that makes her great. And she is not the most powerful anyway.

Power level is not everything, but a lot of people care about it as an important part of characters. And the way many fans of Superman, Hulk, Thor etc act prove this. It's not just WW fans. She lifted a rock that AQ and Sm together couldn't. So what? Many other characters have done far more "ridiculous" things. And she beat Stranger via the power of the Lasso revealing the truth. She didn't beat him with a couple of hits.

[The True Detective]

I've been reading these forums for a long time. Especially during Tom King's run and after BvS came out. Batman fans have been skewering those stories in particular for making Bruce look stupid and I've lost count of the number of times I've see people hate on the Batfamily for robbing Bruce of his social skills. Tim and Oracle in particular have been accused of being used to dumb down Bruce and Cassandra is hated by many for being a better fighter than Bruce.

I don't know what forums you follow, but most Batman fans do not want him to be weaker or dumber.

Hell, Wonder Woman fans actually insist on her being the only flying brick in the DCU that isn't bulletproof.

So not wanting a character to look stupid is the same thing as wanting them to be OP?

Christian Bale's Batman in terms of feats is probably the weakest onscreen Batman ever and yet he's also the most popular, very few people complain about him not being as strong as other versions. Contrast that with all the complaints JL Batman gets for dodging Omega Beams, KOing Sinestro with a Batarang and judo flipping Kalibak

This isn't a Batman thread or even in the Batman forum so I don't want to sidetrack the conversation too much, but imo this forum is mostly anti-Batman. In a recent thread asking who your favorite Batfamily member I think he was in 3rd, THIRD. It's his franchise and he didn't even win a popularity contest in his own forum, can you see that happening to Wonder Woman or Superman? Batman isn't as beloved here as you seem to think, and Batgod sure isn't either.

One other thing, or double standard really, I wanted to mention is how the "characters shouldn't be de-powered, it's a sign of lazy writers" only seems to apply to some characters and not others. Wonder Woman and Superman in the eyes of a lot of their fans should be as strong as possible with little to no weakness and no writer better dare try to reign it in (It's lazy don't ya know) but Batman being a top tier: detective, fighter, tactician, scientist and athlete makes him an overpowered Batgod and how can there possibly be drama in his stories? Who can relate to someone that OP? Oh yeah, the characters we love and argue to be as strong and invulnerable as possible.

To finish it off specifically about WW, at least from what I've seen, her fans want her as strong as possible. There's nothing wrong with that of course but I never see her fans say her power should be toned down.

[Psy-lock]

This isn't a Batman thread or even in the Batman forum so I don't want to sidetrack the conversation too much, but imo this forum is mostly anti-Batman. In a recent thread asking who your favorite Batfamily member I think he was in 3rd, THIRD. It's his franchise and he didn't even win a popularity contest in his own forum, can you see that happening to Wonder Woman or Superman?

It can't happen to Wonder Woman because she doesn't even have a family the same way Batman does. She has a bunch of poorly defined characters with constantly shifting origin stories and vague connections to her.