Wonder Woman OP??

[Mel Dyer]

Real talk, Diana is not OP. She is, when written and portrayed proper, as powerful as Superman. And I mean physical stats; strength, striking power, speed, reflexes, durability, resilience, healing factor. NOT magic or extra abilities like heat vision, super breath, and lightning...She has similar stats with 3000+ years of exp behind her belt...

I couldn't agree, more.

If this played out in reverse would you be okay or have a problem with it. I'm sure Supes killing Wonder Woman and flying around with her spine as a weapon would go over real well here. The problem is that Superman should not be disrespected, written down or treated like a clown for the sake of making another character look good. But that's the role he has been relegated to.

TTM, seriously...that's how Batman is made to look good, with every other character in the DCU. How many times has Wonder Woman or her villains been written down or otherwise treated shabbily, by writers, to make Batty or some less-powerful character [HARLEY!] look impressive?

Preachin' to the choir, over here...

And there's something ugly about how incensed fans get, whenever Wonder Woman (typically, Wonder Woman) gets the better of any popular character - what's that about? Why's it almost always Wonder Woman? I think Ambush Bug could paste the Spectre, straight in the face, and most of us would cheer him on - wouldn't barely blink, ..but, let Wonder Woman try that 'it. Something wrong with Wonder Woman shining, out there?

I'm not picking on you, TTM; just asking what you're hearing, out there, ..that we aren't.

[NaVi]

According to a comment, Superman fans want Superman to crush Wonder Woman like an insect, but forget that ww fans, repeat over and over, that in addition to being a better fighter, having magic weapons, without weaknesses, in addition he has to be physically superior to or at least equal to Superman. For all those who say that for once ww defeats Superman, nothing happens. who cut Superman's neck with a tiara, who defeated a Superman (god of force) in seconds, who broke his arm in injustice. Ww fans don't stop crying, but the truth is that in the last ten years, they've faced each other many times and Superman only won 1.

[AmiMizuno]

In a sense this is what makes the whole bullet thing somewhat questionable. I mean I’m not saying they shouldn’t hurt her but they shouldn’t harm her the same way a normal person would. She has quick healing. That should help when it hits impact. I mean an Amazon should be able to be more tougher than us. I mean if it’s not for her demo goddess status and she was just a normal Amazon I would say a normal bullet can kill her but it would take a few hits. With Diana the bullets goes through her. Hit her in the heart will stop her. Head wound will stop her but not make her drop dead. I have it in my mind that she does have a certain amount of time before she has to stop. To heal and rest.

[WonderLight789]

According to a comment, Superman fans want Superman to crush Wonder Woman like an insect, but forget that ww fans, repeat over and over, that in addition to being a better fighter, having magic weapons, without weaknesses, in addition he has to be physically superior to or at least equal to Superman. For all those who say that for once ww defeats Superman, nothing happens. who cut Superman's neck with a tiara, who defeated a Superman (god of force) in seconds, who broke his arm in injustice. Ww fans don't stop crying, but the truth is that in the last ten years, they've faced each other many times and Superman only won 1.

injustice WW is a terribly writen character.

She cut sm's neck with her magic tiara, we know her gear is powerful and sm is not the most durable hero against magic. She hasn't defeated sm in most of their battles. And what's wrong with WW being as strong as him? Sure she has weapons, while he has ice breath, x ray and heat vision that she doesn't have.

[Ascended]

According to a comment, Superman fans want Superman to crush Wonder Woman like an insect

Hey now, don't lump us all in together. I'm diehard Team Super, and I prefer my Man of Steel to be stupidly powerful, but I still recognize that in a fight, Diana pulls the win most of the time.

And I'm far from alone in that among the Super fandom. It's only the crazy people who think Clark beats her ass easily.

[AmiMizuno]

Marston wanted Diana to be as strong as Supes. She just has a different skill of skills. So she isn't a flying brick. I do wonder how do laserbeams work on Diana? I mean Dc doesn't always treat laserbeams the same with her. Even as a gun or something else.

[Phoenixx9]

Wonder Woman can beat Superman and when she does, it is not just because of her superior fighting ability or her magical gifts, but because she has the strength to do it!

[Restingvoice]

Just... make a SM vs WW Death Battle thread or something. That will be fun. As far as OP question, since she's not the strongest powerhouse (Superman), world greatest detective (Batman), fastest superhero (Flash), can't create things from imagination (Lantern) and doesn't have telephatic powers (MM) we can agree she's not OP yeah?

[AmiMizuno]

One thing I often wonder how far should she be? There is at one point she could keep up with the flash. So I can say she meant not be has flash but should be able to keep up with him. One thing I would say is Cheetah should be faster than Diana. But should Cheetah be faster than Superman?

[Restingvoice]

One thing I often wonder how far should she be? There is at one point she could keep up with the flash. So I can say she meant not be has flash but should be able to keep up with him. One thing I would say is Cheetah should be faster than Diana. But should Cheetah be faster than Superman?

There was a DC image chart a while back on DC's fastest characters but I don't remember if Cheetah, Diana, and Superman is there.

[AmiMizuno]

I was able to find it. So Diana and Cheetah are lower on the list.

[The True Detective]

There isn't a double standard when you think about it. There is a very clear difference in how Batman is set up to function versus the likes of Superman and Wonder Woman. Nobody should have an issue with him being among the top tier in the fields you mentioned. That does not make Bat-God: him outrunning Darkseid's Omega Beams, one punching Cheetah, judo throwing Kalibak, mumbling a half assed spell to depower CIRCE, and having a near limtiless supply of mecha suits as if he's Iron Man all the sudden are the dumb, lazy Bat-God tropes that people can't stand. Batman is basically a God and we should be in awe of him...scaled to his own adventures. It's the difference between RIP and the Return of Bruce Wayne. The former is him in his element with foes that challenge him and would overwhelm anyone else in that portion of the genre but he comes out on top. In the latter, he uses what skills he has to survive against the Hyper Adapter long enough to get to the present day so the JL can handle it, because that's more their element than his. But he still looks good by surviving that long, everyone actually looks good. That's the way to do it.

Him punching above his weight class without much logic IS lazy and a shorthand to make him badass to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Wonder Woman meanwhile is in the weight class to actually do those things without being OP, because it's all scaled up to her level. Powering her down to to make it easier IS lazy. And nobody is asking her to encroach on Batman's territory and be a better detective, are they?

Like this shouldn't even be a question. Batman did not become popular by dealing with the Superman and Wonder Woman level threats, and scaling them differently to do his stuff isn't going to help them. Different characters require different approaches.

I'm not talking about him punching above his weight and having PIS feats, when he was named one of the 2 smartest people on Earth people predictably flipped out.

How is him being one of the smartest men on Earth above his weight class? How does it make him OP? It's not like high intelligence isn't a big part of his character, I'd understand if it was someone like Green Arrow who while not being stupid isn't known for his great mind. But people were pissed and don't think he should even be among the top 25 smartest people on Earth.

So as long as he isn't dodging Omega Beams and flipping Kalibak who cares if he's the 2nd smartest man in the world, knows 127 different martial arts, can bench press 1,000lbs, etc as you say with Wonder Woman and Superman he shouldn't have to be weakened just because some writers are lazy.

[enish]

Some people have a short memory here.


I don’t exactly remember the exact issue, but there was this particular « else world? » story from Batman/Superman some years ago where Superman just killed Diana like she was some pathetic rag doll. He killed her with her own lasso after breaking her bracers and beating the hell out of her.

She was treated so bad then.

She had a black starry outfit.

I just can’t get past the double standard here. It’s okay for almost all the other heroes to shine but not for Wonder Woman?

She was designed to be the exact equal of Superman but she was rarely shown to be. The only few times it happened, some were fast to jump on the « She’s too OP » bandwagon.

Come, just get over it. WW is a top dog. Just like Superman.

[Masterff]

we all know that ww and superman are on the same level (strength) but superman slightly higher, but now ww is stronger than superman and aquaman together, and according to ww fans, superman fans can't say anything, we have to be happy for ww. I wonder what would happen if a comic comes out next month that shows that Superman is a much better fighter than WW, which fans of the spoiled DC girl would say.

As I said I didn't read this whole thread so I'm not sure what Phantom Stranger story you're talking about.

But you need to go read my post again.

There is no such thing as "over powered" there's simply bad stories. If the Stranger was involved in a story where some mortal got the better of him, that's not someone being OP it's a writer who didn't do their job right.

Proper challenges for your protagonists means there is no such thing as being over powered. And I'm not gonna try to dump years' worth of writing courses into this thread to explain the narrative scientifics behind it. But if you want to think Diana or whoever is over powered....go ahead. You're wrong, objectively, but that's your business.

Here I already listed it:

https://www.cbr.com/wonder-woman-kil...eaks-presence/

And sorry this is OP...

"They are ALL somehow related to the Presence and therefore should be immune to the lasso!!!!"

Has this been established by DC lore anytime anywhere or is this your interpretation of how things should be?

Its PURE LOGIC!!

Presence is the only true god, who is OMNIPOTENT
Michael,Lucifer and Elaine are 99% OMNIPOTENT (Michael and Lucifer need each other)
Spectre
Phantom Stranger

Its not like Greek "GODS" who arent Omnipotent, Presence is the real god, who is omnipotent and can delete,create etc. NO LIMITS
Michael and Lucifer have only the limit that they need each other to create
I dont know if Elaine has limits

Spectre is limitless, the only ones who are above him are PRESENCE,Michael-Lucifer and Elaine.

But in REALITY Michael,Lucifer,Elaine,Spectre etc. are able to defeat etc. the Lasso (if the Presence doesnt decide otherwise).

The problem is the DC Universe's Greek gods.

The KEY to comic fans constant short-changing Wonder Woman is the shabby, shabby way (and that's being kind) that the DCU's Greek gods, Wonder Woman's power source, are treated. How many times have Superman, Darkseid and even BATMAN been shown, besting an Olympian god (a freakin' god) in combat? There is going to have to be an editorial mandate, which corrects this, if Wonder Woman's power is ever going to be respected, among DC's superheroes.

Think about it...Wonder Woman's power is magical. Magic is the source of her power, and magic doesn't have a limit. Magic can't be counted (quantified). So, following the John Byrne editorial mandate of 1995 (why I love John Byrne), which is still in-place, today, ..Wonder Woman has enough Olympian magic to make her second-in-power, ONLY to Superman. In addition to being powered by a limitless thing, like magic, she has mastered some Amazon training, a cryptic martial and spiritual discipline, which enables her to beat your trasero, all your friends and your tios' traseros ..and some butts, she hasn't even met, yet! END of debate! Forever...

No, Kryptonian blood doesn't automatically trump the Olympian MAGIC of the Greek gods.

No, Power Girl is not stronger or more powerful, than Wonder Woman.

No, Batman cannot beat a schmah'vuggin' Greek god. Not ever. Hades naw!! [Puh-lee-eease!]

No, Kryptonian blood does not make everyone, who has it, stronger, than everyone else - just Superman.

No, we (writers and editors, included) don't have a problem with CAPTAIN MARVEL using Olympian god magic to beat Superman, Martian Manhunter and whoever; so, we should stop losing our fanboy minds, ..every time that we see Wonder Woman do it. This could be settled, by editors establishing, across all DC Comics titles, that the power of the Greek gods is some serious ..and on equal footing, with the power of the New Gods, like DARKSEID and the rest!

Gotta fix those Greek gods, amigos! Gotta' happen, ..like yesterday. Like right now...

Some of you want to know why me and some of the other long-standing fans are always ranting and raving about how the Wonder Woman comic is edited; well, conversations, like this, ..is why we do that. Cuz, if we had more editors standing up for this lady and demanding some care, with how she and other WW comic characters are handled - as much care, as writers take with Batman - we wouldn't have to. We shouldn't have to retro-edit WW comics, on a fan forum or in the convention halls, folks!

I, for one, am getting tired of that, ..and I think we deserve better.

1. Power Girl is STRONGER than WW

2. Kryptonians get stronger as longer as they live under yellow Sun:
Kal L>>>Kal El
Kingdom Come Superman>>>>Superman
Superman 1.000.000>>>>>>>>>>Superman

3. Darkseid is/should be stronger than GREEK GODS and rest of NEW GODS

4. Gods is also difficult, sinde Presence is the only real god and he and Spectre,Phantom Stranger,Lucifer-Michael...are and should be much stronger than "gods" like Darkseid, Zeus.....

Based on actual feats. Wonder Woman>Supergirl>Powergirl. And based on their fights. WW>SG>PG. The rest that you say is just speculation with no real evidence.

The lasso shouldn't work just because you say so? It is said to be unbreakable and able to make anybody tell the truth. So yes, it should work on stranger too.

When WW has been writen as a dumb warrior bitch that only knows brute force, i didn't see people like you make threads about it. Now that she had some good moments after a long time of bad characterization, that is a problem? Sigh

NO!!!

Who says that its UNBREAKABLE? WHO says that its able to make anybody tell the TRUTH???

It ISNT!!!!

There is only one being in DC Universe who decides what is real and this is PRESENCE!!!!!!

Presence makes the rule for EVERYTHING!!!!!
Presence can create,delete,give powers to, change powers etc. He is LIMITLESS,OMNIPOTENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lucifer,Elaine,Michael,Presence,Spectre and even Phantom Stranger are MUCH ABOVE the power of the Lasso....

Well, let her be a mary sue for a change. If that is how you see it. batman, superman and others have had many more moments where they are shown as the best all around. So it won't kill anybody if Diana has some moments like that too.

Superman,Batman and others best moments are LOGICAL...

WW beating Phantom Stranger etc. not-since the Power of Presence,Spectre etc. just much over Greek Gods Power and over Darkseids etc.

I can not agree more with this assessment. I mean really.

Some people on this thread acting like that boulder nonsense actually implies that she's stronger then everyone combined. REALLY? really? Some of yall are out of your dang minds if you think she or ANYONE else for that matter hasn't lifted anything heavier than a giant rock before.

Also, she's showing off her wisdom and aptitude for leadership. OH NO?! IT's like she was blessed by some Goddess of WISDOM and warfare/ sarcasm.

Ridiculous:

The other stuff might be ok, even its like:
WW is stronger than male members of JL COMBINED,WW is smarter than male members of JL COMBINED..

But the scene with Phantom Stranger and Presence is OP!!!!

I lhad excused myself of this thread earlier, but I wanted to comment on the Phantom Stranger thing. Phantom Strange may have gotten power from the Presence, but he is not the Presence. Same way Silver Surfer was empowered by Galactus but is not Galactus's equal. In fact, even just in the DC universe this was shown when The Spectre, another Presence empowered entity, pretty easily beat Phantom Stranger(off panel even!) during Days of Vengeance. So clearly there are different levels to someone getting power from the Presence.

WRONG!!!!!!

Your comparison makes no sense:

1. PRESENCE is OMNIPOTENT,OMNIPRESENT etc.
This means!!!!:
He just could have said: NO, I dont want that the Phantom Stranger says the truth!!!!!
And it wouldnt have worked!!!

2. Phantom Strangers existence was wished by the PRESENCE!!!
Presence Wish is UNBREAKABLE!! He can do what he wants!

Look at the time when Spectre destroyed Darkseid...Darkseid came to life again, because its Presence will that Darkseid exits and dont get killed by Spectre!!!

Yes Spectre is more powerful than Phantom Stranger, but it DOESNT MATTER, since we are talking here about the top top top players.
The only more powerful beings in WHOLE DC are:
-Presence
-Elaine
-Michael and Lucifer

So SPECTRE is (probably) the 5. most powerful being in the DC UNIVERSE

3. If you are connected to the Presence its more than enough to SURPASS the Greek Gods etc.

So it shouldnt have worked because of 2 things:
a) Phantom Stranger should be more powerful than even Greek Gods like Zeus etc.
b) Its Presence wish that Phantom Stranger exists etc. so she CLEARLY does something what the OMNIPOTENT GOD doesnt want

[Masterff]

Some people have a short memory here.


I don’t exactly remember the exact issue, but there was this particular « else world? » story from Batman/Superman some years ago where Superman just killed Diana like she was some pathetic rag doll. He killed her with her own lasso after breaking her bracers and beating the hell out of her.

She was treated so bad then.

She had a black starry outfit.

I just can’t get past the double standard here. It’s okay for almost all the other heroes to shine but not for Wonder Woman?

She was designed to be the exact equal of Superman but she was rarely shown to be. The only few times it happened, some were fast to jump on the « She’s too OP » bandwagon.

Come, just get over it. WW is a top dog. Just like Superman.

Its NOT double standart:

1. The story with Phantom Stranger is IMPOSSIBLE....
And ITS NOT!!!!!! because WW did it, but its because it should be IMPOSSIBLE!!!!

Darkseid is MUCH STRONGER!!!! than Diana and I would even say its OP when Darkseid defeats Phantom Stranger!!!

ITS NOT DOUBLE STANDARD if you say that it should be impossible for ALL DC CHARACTERS with few exceptions like Presence,Elaine,Michael and Lucifer,Spectre...

2. Its different:
Sorry, but in the links which I posted it was:

WW is stronger than the male members of JL TOGETHER,
The male members want to use brutal strength to solve a situation while clever WW uses her brain
Batman, Mister contingency plan for EVERYTHING doesnt know what/who Tartarus is and has to rely on WW

Its not double Standard, she looked stronger and more clever than the male members TOGETHER and even outperformed the male members in their prime categories:

-STRONGER than Superman and Aquaman
-BETTER INFORMATIONS than Batman
-USING THE GREEN LANTERN DIRECTORY while GL says that there is no time for it

Because as I said I don’t see anything Jason brings to the table for WW’s universe beyond being a reminder of the Zeus origin and forcing WW to take a backseat to him in her one book; not like Batman or Superman where they usually have two to three in addition to their prominent team books. Which as said elsewhere is not a good look for a title intended to be female-led.

Don’t know what Cassie has to do with this. Not attached to her being a daughter of Zeus either.

Its SIMPLE: Cassie was Zeus daughter in Pre-Flashpoint, then in NEW52 it was changed to Diana becoming Zeus daughter, which also added NOTHING!!!!! to Diana and instead only "harmed" Cassie.

Jason being "stronger" more "powerful" and making Diana "taking a backseat" is much much less important for me than Diana becoming Zeus daughter and Cassie Zeus granddaughter.

If you say that Jasons role "harmed" Diana, I say that the change of Zeus becoming Dianas father and Cassie only granddaughter "harmed" Cassie.

If Power Girl is more powerful than Wonder Woman why aren't you making a thread about how OP she is?

EXTREMELY ridiculous question:
-Power Girl was never shown to lift something which Superman and Aquaman COULDNT LIFT TOGETHER
-Power Girl was never shown to "defeat" Phantom Stranger and talk to the Presence
-Power Girl was never shown to "outsmart" the male members of JL
.
.
.

Its ridiculous:
If we take this JL showings together, than WW is SMARTER,STRONGER than the male members of JL together and she is even so great to "defeat" Phantom Stranger...

Power Girl has GREAT FEATS, but this here gives more the Impression that Wonder Woman is smarter, stronger than the males combined and does even something what is Impossible.
So Superman,Batman,Flash,Aquaman...can go home, because WW handles it on her own...