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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member Captain Craig's Avatar
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    Default Warren Ellis: Collected content any format

    With Cancel Culture and vindictive attitudes towards publishing material from those accused of misconduct(not found guilty, just accused in some cases), are we adding Ellis to this?
    Sexual Misconduct by Ellis for decades??

    If so there are a number of runs from a variety of publishers that may not get collected now. My first thought was well. guess we won't get that Moon Knight series into an Omni where he writes the first 6 issue arc now. However, if I never see his Mr. Knight again as a result I will not be upset.

    Should you go ahead and get that Hellstrom Omni while you can?
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  2. #2
    Mighty Member Enigma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Craig View Post
    With Cancel Culture and vindictive attitudes towards publishing material from those accused of misconduct(not found guilty, just accused in some cases), are we adding Ellis to this?
    Sexual Misconduct by Ellis for decades??

    If so there are a number of runs from a variety of publishers that may not get collected now. My first thought was well. guess we won't get that Moon Knight series into an Omni where he writes the first 6 issue arc now. However, if I never see his Mr. Knight again as a result I will not be upset.

    Should you go ahead and get that Hellstrom Omni while you can?
    That depends whether or not there is still enough interest in the content. People are entitled to exercise their right to not buy something if they have a problem with a creator, and if that leads to reduced interest then a publisher can't be expected to produce a product that they don't see as profitable. Personally, I avoid forming personal opinions in these matters without evidence, but in a situation where there is clear evidence that somebody upholds a view that I find ethically problematic (in which case it isn't vindictive) then I may make a decision to avoid supporting that person. Of course, some people jump onto such things on the basis of an accusation alone, but that is nonetheless their right to do so. My point is that people are absolutely entitled to not support a creator if they feel that they cannot accept the creator's ethical conduct, and that naturally will lead to reduce demand. Reduced demand equals reduced requirement for publication. So, yes, perhaps it is wise to get his works now if you're worried about them not being published, but I guess it's difficult to really be sure. I haven't checked any response from publishers regarding Ellis, but maybe there is something there to give you an indication as to the stance they might take? I guess it's always a risk whether or not you buy up now, same as reprints.
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  3. #3
    Moderator Balakin's Avatar
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    Pretty heated subject for our modest, usually very chill little corner over here, hopefully everyone will behave and keep the discussion civil and related to collected editions. *crosses fingers, grows extra arms so he can cross more fingers.

  4. #4
    Mighty Member Enigma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balakin View Post
    Pretty heated subject for our modest, usually very chill little corner over here, hopefully everyone will behave and keep the discussion civil and related to collected editions. *crosses fingers, grows extra arms so he can cross more fingers.
    I would hope not, as I've never seen this sub-forum heated, but just to clarify in case it came across so; my reply is absolutely not intended with any heat at all. I tried to answer the question as impersonally as possible for that reason and focus on the latter question, but it's hard to completely disconnect the two when answering
    "Live a poem... or die a fool!"

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    Moderator Balakin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
    I would hope not, as I've never seen this sub-forum heated, but just to clarify in case it came across so; my reply is absolutely not intended with any heat at all. I tried to answer the question as impersonally as possible for that reason and focus on the latter question, but it's hard to completely disconnect the two when answering
    nah it wasn't aimed at you, don't worry, it was more for future comments.

  6. #6
    Incredible Member JPAR's Avatar
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    Is Hellstorm any good?

  7. #7
    Relaunched, not rebooted! SJNeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPAR View Post
    Is Hellstorm any good?
    I enjoyed it.

    The book would have fit in well with DC's early Vertigo material, if that gives you any indication of the tone/feel of it.
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  8. #8
    Incredible Member Rimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJNeal View Post
    I enjoyed it.

    The book would have fit in well with DC's early Vertigo material, if that gives you any indication of the tone/feel of it.
    I always get Garth Ennis and Warren Ellis mixed up. I prefer Ennis, the only thing (I think) I've read of Ellis was the Iron Man Extremis arc, which was pretty good.
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  9. #9
    Incredible Member JPAR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJNeal View Post
    I enjoyed it.

    The book would have fit in well with DC's early Vertigo material, if that gives you any indication of the tone/feel of it.
    If that's how you feel about it, shouldn't that be the reason to buy it? It's such a delicate discussion. Do you like Michael Jackson's music? If so, shouldn't you listen to it anymore because maybe he ...... It's with all of those complicated situations. What's right and what's wrong? I read about BLM that destroyed statues of historical people, because they did things that we don't agree with anymore. But if we erase history, how can we learn from it? I think these things are for everyone to decide for their own.

  10. #10
    Incredible Member Dick Grayson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPAR View Post
    If that's how you feel about it, shouldn't that be the reason to buy it? It's such a delicate discussion. Do you like Michael Jackson's music? If so, shouldn't you listen to it anymore because maybe he ...... It's with all of those complicated situations. What's right and what's wrong? I read about BLM that destroyed statues of historical people, because they did things that we don't agree with anymore. But if we erase history, how can we learn from it? I think these things are for everyone to decide for their own.
    You’re drifting into a VERY different discussion re: destroying confederate statues. You can still learn from history without actively celebrating awful people by displaying statues of them. I’ve not been to the Netherlands, but I’m going to guess you all don’t study history exclusively through statues, right?

    And none of this has anything to do with comics or Ellis. Ellis is certainly not a historical person, for a start.

    Separating art from the artist is up to each individual, this I agree with. In the internet age it’s tougher, because we learn much more about people, including artists, and oftentimes, the more we learn about artists, the more we learn about how awful they are! But there’s also a difference between Michael Jackson and what is happening with Ellis. Jackson is dead, so he isn’t actively profiting off of sales of his music. With Ellis, since he’s still alive, sales of his work can be seen as actively supporting him, and that’s where it gets dicey. And companies don’t want to be seen as profiting off of these people either (for bad the PR as much as any true moral stance) hence them canceling the work themselves. If someone still wants to enjoy his work, I get it, and if someone feels uncomfortable putting money in his pocket, I get that too.

    EDIT - if any of this is drifting into too dangerous territory, feel free to delete!
    Last edited by Dick Grayson; 07-15-2020 at 02:37 AM.

  11. #11
    Mighty Member Enigma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Grayson View Post
    You’re drifting into a VERY different discussion re: destroying confederate statues. You can still learn from history without actively celebrating awful people by displaying statues of them. I’ve not been to the Netherlands, but I’m going to guess you all don’t study history exclusively through statues, right?

    And none of this has anything to do with comics or Ellis. Ellis is certainly not a historical person, for a start.

    Separating art from the artist is up to each individual, this I agree with. In the internet age it’s tougher, because we learn much more about people, including artists, and oftentimes, the more we learn about artists, the more we learn about how awful they are! But there’s also a difference between Michael Jackson and what is happening with Ellis. Jackson is dead, so he isn’t actively profiting off of sales of his music. With Ellis, since he’s still alive, sales of his work can be seen as actively supporting him, and that’s where it gets dicey. And companies don’t want to be seen as profiting off of these people either (for bad the PR as much as any true moral stance) hence them canceling the work themselves. If someone still wants to enjoy his work, I get it, and if someone feels uncomfortable putting money in his pocket, I get that too.

    EDIT - if any of this is drifting into too dangerous territory, feel free to delete!
    I think you're fine. It's a delicate discussion, but I think everybody had been very open and mature about it
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  12. #12
    Fantastic Member Mormegil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPAR View Post
    If that's how you feel about it, shouldn't that be the reason to buy it? It's such a delicate discussion. Do you like Michael Jackson's music? If so, shouldn't you listen to it anymore because maybe he ...... It's with all of those complicated situations. What's right and what's wrong? I read about BLM that destroyed statues of historical people, because they did things that we don't agree with anymore. But if we erase history, how can we learn from it? I think these things are for everyone to decide for their own.
    No one is talking about erasing the confederacy from history. That is a straw-man argument. Statues in public places are for honoring someone, statues for history belong in museums.

    I've always had a hard time separating the art from the artist. Yes, that does keep me from enjoying a michael jackson song as that stuff is the first thing that pops into my head when i hear one of his songs. Even if the artist is just a jerk in general it hurts my reading of them.

    So even if Ellis hasn't done anything criminal (i haven't read specifics of what is going on) and he's just a asshole. I would like to know. There is so much good stuff to read out there by creators who are kind and thoughtful, no point in wasting time with ones who aren't. (please no one ruin my image of Stan Sakai, he seems like the best of the best. )

  13. #13
    Incredible Member JPAR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Grayson View Post
    You’re drifting into a VERY different discussion re: destroying confederate statues. You can still learn from history without actively celebrating awful people by displaying statues of them. I’ve not been to the Netherlands, but I’m going to guess you all don’t study history exclusively through statues, right?

    And none of this has anything to do with comics or Ellis. Ellis is certainly not a historical person, for a start.

    Separating art from the artist is up to each individual, this I agree with. In the internet age it’s tougher, because we learn much more about people, including artists, and oftentimes, the more we learn about artists, the more we learn about how awful they are! But there’s also a difference between Michael Jackson and what is happening with Ellis. Jackson is dead, so he isn’t actively profiting off of sales of his music. With Ellis, since he’s still alive, sales of his work can be seen as actively supporting him, and that’s where it gets dicey. And companies don’t want to be seen as profiting off of these people either (for bad the PR as much as any true moral stance) hence them canceling the work themselves. If someone still wants to enjoy his work, I get it, and if someone feels uncomfortable putting money in his pocket, I get that too.

    EDIT - if any of this is drifting into too dangerous territory, feel free to delete!
    I completely agree with you that statues don't make history. And for me personally there shouldn't be any difference between people on regard of religion, color or anything. What I was aiming for is the fact that in the whole world things are changing. Some for the good and some for the bad. I think that if you want things to change you need context. Therefore you need history. That goes for Metoo (Ellis), BLM etc. But also for politics. The people in politics are the ones who can make a huge difference. And as long as we don't chooce wisely the wrong people are in politics. Than you can argue about what the right choice is to vote for. Anyone should decide for themselves what is right.

    You don't have to celebrate awfull people. I agree. And I don't want that either. But when is someone awfull? Who decides that? It's just like comics. There are good persons and bad persons. But there are also persons that are both. They do things they shouldn't have done, but they aren't bad. It forms them and they get to be better in the future, even a heroe maybe. And that's in real life also. If you've done something that's wrong, you should get punished.

    If I look to the Netherlands. We are very liberated around here and still there is racisme. A lot of people vote for politicians that want to segregate things. Why? Do we not learn from history? I don't know? But still it happens. In Europe, US, UK, etc. People forget their history and make the same mistakes again.

    But I also don't want to take it to far. I think things aren't as easy as they sometimes seem to be. And most certainly not to discuss on a forum, where writing is flat and nuance is difficult to read. How things are meant and how they are put down into words and how they are interpreted by someone who reads it, can be totally different.

  14. #14
    Relaunched, not rebooted! SJNeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPAR View Post
    If that's how you feel about it, shouldn't that be the reason to buy it? It's such a delicate discussion. Do you like Michael Jackson's music? If so, shouldn't you listen to it anymore because maybe he ...... It's with all of those complicated situations. What's right and what's wrong? I read about BLM that destroyed statues of historical people, because they did things that we don't agree with anymore. But if we erase history, how can we learn from it? I think these things are for everyone to decide for their own.
    I'm not sure how my response to the question regarding the quality of Ellis's Hellstorm stories relates to his current predicament...?

    I already own the single issues that were released in the 1990's, and while I enjoyed and have reread them, I won't be purchasing them again in the format of an overpriced omnibus. Any money he made from me was seen decades ago. For arguments sake, let's say Hellstrom was my favorite series ever; I'd have to weigh the weight of the allegations against how much I wanted this material in an upgraded format before making my decision. Since I don't care *that* much for the series, I'm not going to stress myself out in this instance.
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  15. #15
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    I'm torn on this one, part of me thinks this is just a guy sleeping around, and part of me thinks its pretty obvious he was using a position of power here. I don't see it as clear cut as some of the more profile cases, and even a number of his accusers seem to have as much positive things to say, with some saying that his work should not be 'cancelled'. Not sure if I'm struggling to see past the fact that Planetary is one my favourite all time comics and I had only just purchased the Authority Omnibus- I have tried to find more about the situation, including read this, https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...nsmetropolitan. Its a murky situation; I would never behave in the way he did, and it shows a lack of professionalism on his part, and I do not want to make excuses for him here. Whether its enough to mean that I give up reading his work will just depend on whether I can push that out of my mind. I know I've avoided writers for less (Mike Baron), but also been able to look past misdemeanors which are as serious (David Bowie), or even more troubling (I still think David Ruffin is the greatest singer of all time, despite knowing his various personal issues). I think that's the real issue here, particularly for comics. If you can read the work and separate the contributors, then go ahead. But if you're so troubled that you know you are going to be reading their work in light of what you know about them, then maybe avoid.

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