Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 21 of 21
  1. #16
    Mighty Member Enigma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    1,806

    Default

    I think that society is entitled to redirect its consumer choices to avoid supporting people, but one of my concerns is that we are in danger of not allowing people to learn and grow, because I feel like the 'cancelling' is often times going to be permanent. I think of it like putting people in prison, if we don't allow rehabilitation of prisoners and the potential to be released and become a contributing member of society again, we are causing a new problem. Likewise here, people need to be able to learn from their mistakes and be given the chance to grow. If people's careers are taken away on a potentially permanent basis, they won't grow, they will hit back. Obviously, there are cases in which people have done something that people cannot forgive.

    Creator X is found to be a paedophile - cancel them and goodbye. I'm not buying their work.

    Creator Y offends says something perceived as discriminatory, from a place of ignorance or misunderstanding as opposed to actually being a racist or homophobe etc, make the issue known to them, but let them learn from it. I will still buy their work, depending on how I feel they respond to the criticism.
    "Live a poem... or die a fool!"

  2. #17
    Amazing Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    43

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
    I think that society is entitled to redirect its consumer choices to avoid supporting people, but one of my concerns is that we are in danger of not allowing people to learn and grow, because I feel like the 'cancelling' is often times going to be permanent. I think of it like putting people in prison, if we don't allow rehabilitation of prisoners and the potential to be released and become a contributing member of society again, we are causing a new problem. Likewise here, people need to be able to learn from their mistakes and be given the chance to grow. If people's careers are taken away on a potentially permanent basis, they won't grow, they will hit back. Obviously, there are cases in which people have done something that people cannot forgive.

    Creator X is found to be a paedophile - cancel them and goodbye. I'm not buying their work.

    Creator Y offends says something perceived as discriminatory, from a place of ignorance or misunderstanding as opposed to actually being a racist or homophobe etc, make the issue known to them, but let them learn from it. I will still buy their work, depending on how I feel they respond to the criticism.
    This is an incredibly nuanced and articulate statement about the whole idea of "cancel culture" as it has been named. Sadly, this level of discourse seems to be confined to a comic book forum rather than existing out in the real public world.

  3. #18
    Spectacular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Posts
    212

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
    I think that society is entitled to redirect its consumer choices to avoid supporting people, but one of my concerns is that we are in danger of not allowing people to learn and grow, because I feel like the 'cancelling' is often times going to be permanent. I think of it like putting people in prison, if we don't allow rehabilitation of prisoners and the potential to be released and become a contributing member of society again, we are causing a new problem. Likewise here, people need to be able to learn from their mistakes and be given the chance to grow. If people's careers are taken away on a potentially permanent basis, they won't grow, they will hit back. Obviously, there are cases in which people have done something that people cannot forgive.

    Creator X is found to be a paedophile - cancel them and goodbye. I'm not buying their work.

    Creator Y offends says something perceived as discriminatory, from a place of ignorance or misunderstanding as opposed to actually being a racist or homophobe etc, make the issue known to them, but let them learn from it. I will still buy their work, depending on how I feel they respond to the criticism.
    I really do think itís a case by case basis. I agree that we canít paint a broad brush and cancel anyone who gets involved in a controversy. Take Mike Mignola for instance. I personally do believe that he didnít want to acknowledge the issues with Scott Allie and let his personal involvement cloud his judgement. So Iím willing to forgive him. Warren Ellis is a bit more complicated situation. While itís true that he didnít commit a criminal act, I think he has been incredibly disingenuous in his response. He stated that he never thought of himself as a star and didnít think that he was taking advantage of women by way of a power imbalance. I read some pretty in depth articles on this situation and it seems pretty clear that he used the Warren Ellis forum for example to identify younger women especially women trying to break into the industry. Itís clear that he had designs on making all these relationships sexual. Eventually he would cut many off completely and in some cases he essentially blackballed and ensured that their opportunities would be limited. He acted in a very, very shitty manner and it is difficult if not impossible to overlook how he behaved. This is just my personal feeling and I understand that not everyone will see it the same way.

  4. #19
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    312

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nab432 View Post
    I really do think it’s a case by case basis. I agree that we can’t paint a broad brush and cancel anyone who gets involved in a controversy. Take Mike Mignola for instance. I personally do believe that he didn’t want to acknowledge the issues with Scott Allie and let his personal involvement cloud his judgement. So I’m willing to forgive him. Warren Ellis is a bit more complicated situation. While it’s true that he didn’t commit a criminal act, I think he has been incredibly disingenuous in his response. He stated that he never thought of himself as a star and didn’t think that he was taking advantage of women by way of a power imbalance. I read some pretty in depth articles on this situation and it seems pretty clear that he used the Warren Ellis forum for example to identify younger women especially women trying to break into the industry. It’s clear that he had designs on making all these relationships sexual. Eventually he would cut many off completely and in some cases he essentially blackballed and ensured that their opportunities would be limited. He acted in a very, very shitty manner and it is difficult if not impossible to overlook how he behaved. This is just my personal feeling and I understand that not everyone will see it the same way.
    Let's assume the VERY worst: A pedo, who likes to torture and eat children got caught, is now in jail (cause we don't execute people in Europe) and is now releasing a book about those exact gruesome deeds and profits from his victims a second time. I am a curious person, and would be very inclined to read his memoirs, just out of the curiosity of how deviant minds operate. But I would not want to gratify his deeds by buying his book. So I would probably torrent it. I a way, I'm still taking part in the phaenomenon which is his book release. And through talking about it to friends I will probably animate a few more people to buy it... Which might inspire others to turn to their darkest inner corners and explore them. Which could lead to new crimes and so on. And all in all I'd still be probably FOR the release of the book. But very close to the censorship argument, which is and was always: This idea is too dangerous for people to handle

    For me only the most hardcore extreme examples get close to making the case for censorship. Cancel culture is nothing else, but for the fact, that it's not a top-down decision, but a group-pressure-oriented one.

    While I think that ideas can be dangerous, and people who propagate them equally so, I don't believe that ignoring them or making them "invisible" can EVER make them disappear. They just disappear into the shadows, and I think that#s even worse, because you can just see more in plain daylight... I know that this posting is taking the Warren-Ellis thing to its hyperextreme, but in the end it's the same argument. In Ellis works, we can see his mind operating. We can get "inside" being him. Whatever he has done in his real life must have some connection to his work as a writer, of that I am convinced. You can't be a true artist while you try hiding your obsessions and your own personality. So why not explore it in this more cold, analytical way? And if the things he has done make you think so badly about him, then maybe find ways to not give him money and just buy his stuff second hand.

  5. #20
    Fantastic Member Kaled's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    304

    Default

    Like many it to me is a case by case bases. While I do agree that Ellis was wrong in what he did I don't think it is enough to have his work censored or banished or taken out of print. I still consider myself a huge fan of his work and in his case it is one that I can separate the person from their work. Personally I am still having a harder time deciding if I can separate the artist from the art in the case of Gerard Jones. I grew up with his world for DC and Malibu and consider him a good writer but because of his crime I don't know if I can read his work anymore. Society has changed and how it views people and their offences. I remember seeing a documentary about Fatty Arbuckle and something someone said at the end has always stuck with me. This was back in the 90s after tabloid tv programs had risen and fallen. Basically what was said was that if Fatty Arbuckle had been alive today he would go on several talk shows to discuss what happened and after 2 or 3 years he would be back at the top but because of the time he lived in he was shunned and basically blackballed from Hollywood. Give Ellis 2 or 3 years and he will be back on top and any of his work that is out of print will be back also.

  6. #21
    of House Bolton Ramsay Snow's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    457

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JPAR View Post
    Is Hellstorm any good?
    As SJNeal mentioned, it's good.

    I remember Ellis saying, on Twitter, he found his work on the title somewhat embarrassing as it was from the earlier part of his career, but I thought it was solid.

    If you're thinking about getting the omnibus, I highly recommend it. Not his greatest work, but it's more than worth going for.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •