Has rape ever been used well in the DCU?

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Btw the answer is the Comedian and Silk Spectre. It was treated seriously, it had weight that affected characters appropriately, it wasn’t minimized. Even then it was only an attempted rape so it avoids being as heinous as necessary like the Sue Dibny one. And because Watchmen is canon now I can use it

[Lightning Rider]

Btw the answer is the Comedian and Silk Spectre. It was treated seriously, it had weight that affected characters appropriately, it wasn’t minimized. Even then it was only an attempted rape so it avoids being as heinous as necessary like the Sue Dibny one. And because Watchmen is canon now I can use it

Oh ****, good point.

[kjn]

I think you are misunderstanding the audience for these kinds of shows, a large chunk of which is female. I know dozens of women, my wife included, who are utterly hooked on shows about that regularly feature sadistic torture, sexual assault, and murder. I don't really understand the appeal myself, but there's clearly something about these kinds of stories that brings in a large audience.

I don't think these stories need to be crass, exploitative, or an excuse for cheap sensationalism, either. They can be done with care and craft, in which the story is trying to explore something cathartic or insightful and the victims are the center, rather than plot devices. This is where DC has failed in regards to depicting sexual assault again and again in the past.

Now, is a superhero story really the best context for this kind of stuff? My initial instinct would be to say no, but I also don't think it's necessarily a good creative choice to limit a genre because it makes me uncomfortable and has been repeatedly used poorly in the past. I know that I don't want to see it in the mainstream books at all. I have had too many of my younger girl students who adore Batgirl/Oracle who want to read the story in which the Joker hurts her.

I'm reminded of Mercedes Lackey's popular Valdemar books, where two fellow filkers wrote the following synopsis of recurring events: "For I'm raped, maimed, and tortured, abandoned and lost". So yes, there is appeal in what might be dubbed as "fantasies of abuse" or "victim insertion story". It also explains part of why Harley Quinn has such a devoted fan base.

I think you can do a superhero narrative based on these tropes, but I also think it'd go counter to the power fantasy aspect of the superhero genre. Not saying it can't be done, but you're trying to reconcile two meta-narratives that are at odds with each other, and that's always tricky to do. I also think that most writers and editors at DC has little or no understanding on the themes of the fantasies of abuse.

But it can still be done. Harleen manages, but it was written outside of DC's normal system of operation.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Man, do not get me started on the &%$@ed up ideas some of the fans of Harley Quinn I've taught. More than one has claimed that Joker and Harley are meant to be together. I don't blame DC for this idea though. As far as I know, everyone at DC has treated Harley's one-sided romance with Joker as a completely toxic and abusive relationship that no one should be emulating.

However, this is decidedly not the kind of stuff I'm talking about in regards to DC's handling of sexual assault. Silk Spectre/Comedian and Jack Knight/Nash are both examples of creators dealing with the issue in a somewhat meaningful way. That said, it took the HBO show for Silk Spectre to finally become as interesting and layered as her male counterparts for me. Both mother and daughter were always the weak link of Moore & Gibbons's Watchmen.

[Agent Z]

Anything involving sexual violence should probably be removed from DC not that its bad but it just can't be done justice because of how censored the medium is
I mean look at Bat penis

What does that have to do with sexual violence?

[RachelGrey]

Man, do not get me started on the &%$@ed up ideas some of the fans of Harley Quinn I've taught. More than one has claimed that Joker and Harley are meant to be together. I don't blame DC for this idea though. As far as I know, everyone at DC has treated Harley's one-sided romance with Joker as a completely toxic and abusive relationship that no one should be emulating.

However, this is decidedly not the kind of stuff I'm talking about in regards to DC's handling of sexual assault. Silk Spectre/Comedian and Jack Knight/Nash are both examples of creators dealing with the issue in a somewhat meaningful way. That said, it took the HBO show for Silk Spectre to finally become as interesting and layered as her male counterparts for me. Both mother and daughter were always the weak link of Moore & Gibbons's Watchmen.

DC isn't the only company to mess this up! Don't forget Carol Danvers being raped from the guy from the future, and hypnotized to think she was in love with him! They just let him walk out the door with Carol! This didn't get properly addressed till several years later when she told the Avengers that they at fault for what happened because they didn't lift a finger to save her!

Personally, if you are going to have a sexual assault in a comic it better be well written, and it better be written from the victim's point of view! If a writer is putting us in the head of the victimizer and trying to make us think the whole thing is a "cool story" then this is a massive failure!

[Clark_Kent]

I'm from the camp that nothing should ever be off the table, as long as the action fits the character doing it. There are many DC villains I can see performing such an act like rape, and many villains who it wouldn't make sense for.

I would argue, though, that rape and sexual assault has been used just fine in DC thus far. Readers like to call Sue's rape "shock factor", "pointless", "disgusting", and "cheap"...but, that's what rape is lol I doubt victims of sexual assault would describe it any other way. It's my belief, though, that readers actually take so much issue with Sue's because they have a connection to the character in some way, and they just didn't like it. For me, when I read IC back in 2007 I hadn't read much previously with Ralph and Sue, so it affected me differently. It's all about perspective, I think. But nothing should be off the table as long as it isn't done in a "sexy" way. For example, the torture of Spoiler by Black Mask...I had no issue with the torture, or even Leslie's actions afterward, but she was drawn in sexy poses while she was being tortured and that was a bit unnecessary.

[Shadowedeyes]

In Identity Crisis's case, I have a problem with it because it was only used as a throwaway red herring. Remove it from the story and you loose absolutely nothing of value in Identity Crisis. And while it did impact some things going forward, like Dr. Light's characterization, and Batman's whole distrust of the superheroes because of his mindwipe, it's still a pretty clear case of using Sue as a catalyst for these guy's stories than any interest in advancing Ralph and Sue's story.

[Will Evans]

In Identity Crisis's case, I have a problem with it because it was only used as a throwaway red herring. Remove it from the story and you loose absolutely nothing of value in Identity Crisis. And while it did impact some things going forward, like Dr. Light's characterization, and Batman's whole distrust of the superheroes because of his mindwipe, it's still a pretty clear case of using Sue as a catalyst for these guy's stories than any interest in advancing Ralph and Sue's story.

The author was given a list of characters he could change (kill, become evil, rape, go insane, etc)

Ralph, Sue, Ray, Jean were on the list. So he could do whatever he wanted with them.

I’m assuming Firestorm, Captain Boomerang, and Robin’s father were on the list as well. Though it’s weird Robin’s dad was on their with Robin’s ongoing comic.

[Shadowedeyes]

The author was given a list of characters he could change (kill, become evil, rape, go insane, etc)

Ralph, Sue, Ray, Jean were on the list. So he could do whatever he wanted with them.

I’m assuming Firestorm, Captain Boomerang, and Robin’s father were on the list as well. Though it’s weird Robin’s dad was on their with Robin’s ongoing comic.

I mean, sure, I don't doubt that. Doesn't mean I have to like how things went down though. As for Robin's dad, wasn't that around the time his dad wasn't letting him be Robin? Maybe DC saw it as a quick way to get Tim Drake back into the costume.

[TheCape]

I mean, sure, I don't doubt that. Doesn't mean I have to like how things went down though. As for Robin's dad, wasn't that around the time his dad wasn't letting him be Robin? Maybe DC saw it as a quick way to get Tim Drake back into the costume.

For the persepctive of someone that was only reading Robin at the time, i'm pretty sure that it looked like Jack died rigth after coming around the idea in War Crimes, it was kind of weird how the change came so suddenly for an event outside his solo.

[married guy]

In Identity Crisis's case, I have a problem with it because it was only used as a throwaway red herring. Remove it from the story and you loose absolutely nothing of value in Identity Crisis. And while it did impact some things going forward, like Dr. Light's characterization, and Batman's whole distrust of the superheroes because of his mindwipe, it's still a pretty clear case of using Sue as a catalyst for these guy's stories than any interest in advancing Ralph and Sue's story.

This.

Now I LOVE Brad Meltzer. I believe he is a brilliant writer. His novels are consistently excellent and his JLA and Green Arrow runs were a highlight for me.
But GODDAMN I HATE Identity Crisis with a passion. The treatment of Sue, the gaping plot holes, the insane jump in logic to make it all tie together.... ugh.
As you say, the act made ZERO difference to the story. It just read like a cheap attempt to shock and make Dr Light a truly evil bastard by having him commit a taboo most people find abhorrent.

[ed2962]

DC isn't the only company to mess this up! Don't forget Carol Danvers being raped from the guy from the future, and hypnotized to think she was in love with him! They just let him walk out the door with Carol! This didn't get properly addressed till several years later when she told the Avengers that they at fault for what happened because they didn't lift a finger to save her!

Personally, if you are going to have a sexual assault in a comic it better be well written, and it better be written from the victim's point of view! If a writer is putting us in the head of the victimizer and trying to make us think the whole thing is a "cool story" then this is a massive failure!

Actually, it was dealt with fairly quickly. Avengers #200 came out and then in the next scheduled Avengers Annual #10 Chris Claremont addressed the situation. However, it wasn't mentioned again until years later. If you read the comic, the editors and writers clearly didn't intend for Carol's hook up with Marcus to be rape, but it was pointed out, it was hard to deny that's what they wrote.

[witchboy]

Man, do not get me started on the &%$@ed up ideas some of the fans of Harley Quinn I've taught. More than one has claimed that Joker and Harley are meant to be together. I don't blame DC for this idea though. As far as I know, everyone at DC has treated Harley's one-sided romance with Joker as a completely toxic and abusive relationship that no one should be emulating.

However, this is decidedly not the kind of stuff I'm talking about in regards to DC's handling of sexual assault. Silk Spectre/Comedian and Jack Knight/Nash are both examples of creators dealing with the issue in a somewhat meaningful way. That said, it took the HBO show for Silk Spectre to finally become as interesting and layered as her male counterparts for me. Both mother and daughter were always the weak link of Moore & Gibbons's Watchmen.

The Suicide Squad movie did romanticize Joker and Harley's relationship. Joker plays hero for her a couple of times.
There's also a slew of fan art out there that a lot of casual fans eat up and get a really wrong headed perspective of what their relationship is like.

[Restingvoice]

The author was given a list of characters he could change (kill, become evil, rape, go insane, etc)

Ralph, Sue, Ray, Jean were on the list. So he could do whatever he wanted with them.

I’m assuming Firestorm, Captain Boomerang, and Robin’s father were on the list as well. Though it’s weird Robin’s dad was on their with Robin’s ongoing comic.

See this is one of my core problem with DC. They do the same with Heroes in Crisis. King asked for someone he can use to be the murderer and the framed, they gave him Wally, Harley and Booster.

What the heck kind of mindset went in there that makes them think any of these is okay for a series with longtime audiences? We're talking about changing canon here, sometimes longtime canon. It isn't just a one-shot, but it sounds like their attitude is like... okay, you can use these guys, since we're not using them right now... we don't know what you're gonna use it, or if it's gonna affect the past and future of the world we're building, but sure, go long.