Has rape ever been used well in the DCU?

[DrNewGod]

It's interesting that all the "good" examples being identified here are of men being raped (outside of Marvel's Jessica Jones). That suggests something unpleasant about DC.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

It's not about not reading your post, it's just that the title of the thread is...a lot to just stomach while browsing a comic book fourm on a Wednesday morning.

Just a simple rephrasing would give people the opportunity to decide whether or not they even want to participate in a conversation about the roles of heinous assault on fictional characters.

I'm sorry. I'm confused. What about the thread feels like it's not giving people the opportunity to decide if they want to participate in the conversation?

This is obviously going to be a difficult conversation to have, and we're trying to do it in a respectful way, but it's not being forced upon anyone. No one has to read this thread if they don't want to. I am just looking for different opinions because I am honestly not sure where I stand.

[chamber-music]

Jessica Jones wasn't raped in the Alias comics series. Jones was raped by Killgrave in the TV series.

Purple Man raped other women and made Jessica watch him. He also made Jones beg for him to rape her in the comics. It was more psychologically torture rather than physical.

Black Cat was given the backstory that she was raped in college by Kevin Smith in Black Cat: The Evil That Men Do limited series. Seemed like the same old lazy and somewhat offensive trope of using rape to empower female characters.

[Frontier]

Rape gave us Damian, so...no.

I think that was retroactive, though. Originally Bruce and Talia's relationship was completely consensual.

[Will Evans]

Don’t forget Sleeze, Big Barda, cameras and Superman.

It was mind control, but still.....

[SiegePerilous02]

I think that was retroactive, though. Originally Bruce and Talia's relationship was completely consensual.

It sort of became consensual again when Morrison realized his error, and Bruce was shown being DTF without ever touching his drink (and whatever Talia put in there was ambiguous).

Though in general, I would say DC's handling of rape has never been good.

[Güicho]

It's interesting that all the "good" examples being identified here are of men being raped

Not always the case , here is a horrible gratuitous offensive on all levels (treated as a joke) example to counter that -
If you know the character's MO while saying "bueno" The Kyle Rayner panels take on a whole new meaning.


Nobody (the "heroes") even want to confront even address, or deal with what happened, it's just thrown out there and treated as joke (by the author), and becomes Kyle's personal little problem he has to keep to himself suck up, and live with.

Author Ennis comfortably snickered his way through this little joke and into a hit tv series.

As well as the example of Nightwing already mentioned (don't think the author even addressed it as such in story) , who I don't think anyone identified that way.

[Vakanai]

I think that was retroactive, though. Originally Bruce and Talia's relationship was completely consensual.

Yeah, but Bruce is too smart to not use a condom in consensual sex, so the moment it was decided to make Damian it had to be retcon to rape.

[kjn]

Can it be done?

Yes, most stories can be told.

Should it be done? There the answer is probably much less, and with a lot more sensitivity than most creators are capable of.

One comic that deals well with sexual assault is The Tale of One Bad Rat by Bryan Talbot. It's been used in the rehabilitation of children that has suffered sexual assault or other child abuse. But it does that by being centered throughout on the victim/survivor, Helen. In that it is similar to the way Orlando and Yale centered "Oracle Year One: Born of Hope" on Babs and her journey afterwards.

If the creator isn't willing to write about the victim, then don't.

[Lightning Rider]

What I'd be interested in seeing is having fans/writers/critics modify existing problematic stories to provide an alternative where the instance rape and its victim are treated with the proper respect. For example, I get the arguments that Identity Crisis didn't give Sue Dibny agency and that it showcases sexual violence purely for the purpose of giving the other mostly male characters motivation. But I'd be interested in trying to think about how Identity Crisis could be improved without erasing the instance of assault itself.

If some people don't want to read about rape in comic books, I totally get that. But I also don't think writers should be forced to pretend it doesn't happen, and when it is included, it should be done with sensitivity.

[Will Evans]

What I'd be interested in seeing is having fans/writers/critics modify existing problematic stories to provide an alternative where the instance rape and its victim are treated with the proper respect. For example, I get the arguments that Identity Crisis didn't give Sue Dibny agency and that it showcases sexual violence purely for the purpose of giving the other mostly male characters motivation. But I'd be interested in trying to think about how Identity Crisis could be improved without erasing the instance of assault itself.

If some people don't want to read about rape in comic books, I totally get that. But I also don't think writers should be forced to pretend it doesn't happen, and when it is included, it should be done with sensitivity.

Truthfully I’m not sure since Sue’s assault and death happens at the beginning to set up the story, which itself is a murder mystery.

I would put way more page time to Dinah and Zatanna’s thoughts during the story, such as the rape and assault. The author’s focus is all on Ollie and Wally and by extension Ralph. Going back to the whole “fridging females for manpain.” But no where are the females of this story involved treated as main characters. Especially Zatanna who only acts as a deus ex machina for the mindwipe, and not as an actual character. We don’t know how Sue’s rape, assault and death affect them. They only act as support to males.

[Frontier]

Yeah, but Bruce is too smart to not use a condom in consensual sex, so the moment it was decided to make Damian it had to be retcon to rape.

I think at the time he was in love with Talia enough that he was actually considering having a kid with her.

[Restingvoice]

What I'd be interested in seeing is having fans/writers/critics modify existing problematic stories to provide an alternative where the instance rape and its victim are treated with the proper respect. For example, I get the arguments that Identity Crisis didn't give Sue Dibny agency and that it showcases sexual violence purely for the purpose of giving the other mostly male characters motivation. But I'd be interested in trying to think about how Identity Crisis could be improved without erasing the instance of assault itself.

Well, first... what was the purpose of Identity Crisis in the long run? Reestablishing Dr. Light as a threat? Make Batman distrust Justice League because of the memory modification which leads to the separation of Trinity in Infinite Crisis? Making Tim orphan so he's adopted by Bruce?

After that, is rape really necessary to do establish all that? Did the rape change anything for the characters within that story?

In other words, what is the goal of the story and how or how much did the rape of Sue Dibny contribute to that?

[Will Evans]

Well, first... what was the purpose of Identity Crisis in the long run? Reestablishing Dr. Light as a threat? Make Batman distrust Justice League because of the memory modification which leads to the separation of Trinity in Infinite Crisis? Making Tim orphan so he's adopted by Bruce?

After that, is rape really necessary to do establish all that? Did the rape change anything for the characters within that story?

In other words, what is the goal of the story and how or how much did the rape of Sue Dibny contribute to that?

Truthfully, the rape was a red herring for the mystery of who killed Sue.

If she were sexual assaulted in the past, than her attacker must have killed her in the present???? Not sure how the heroes reached that conclusion. I guess they figured revenge for the mindwipe?


I guess Light’s mindwipe itself is a juxtaposition for Sue’s rape. A “mind rape” if you will. That the heroes were now forcing on Light. Eye for an eye???? Are the heroes just as bad as the villains?

I’m not a mystery writer but I’d say it was just used a red herring. Dr Light becoming a threat again is just a consequence of that.

[Vakanai]

I think at the time he was in love with Talia enough that he was actually considering having a kid with her.

Considering isn't the same as willingly going ahead with it.