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  1. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    Artists are now forced to do research on future employers is the message I take from this. What about DC's continuing employment of bad apples. Might not be as bad as comicsgate but still leaves a taste I dislike. Tom King harming anothers reputation unintentionally is the second message I take from this. He might have thought his actions are sound but sometimes less jumping into action and working on your own shortcomings could be better. Lead by example instead mouthing off
    DC keeping a certain editor is just as bad because you have no idea who didn't want to come to DC because of him.

    Same with the gators-we don't who they are souring on entering this industry. Not just POC, LGBTQIA and women but other white males too.
    The gators are worst because they are NOT going after those bad apples.

    And I think most artist do research however there is always the idea of "it can't happen to me". Even with folks openly talking like Sin Grace or Gail Simone or even McDuffie. Having that DC or Marvel on your resume seems to be worth it to some.

    I know what yr saying and i do agree with you to an extent but where does on stop in a moral / ethical putch of culture. You will end up with nothing left.
    It's not going to stop because SOMEONE benefits from it. Sometimes behind the scenes. Sometimes unexpectedly.

    Question for everyone here-if you didn't like something would you spend 40+ hours online trashing it? Would you go after the creative team daily?
    Or would you ignore it and find something you liked?

    Look at all the toxic stuff they are doing. Don't think for one second some politician or lawyer is not looking at that. Because there have been some. If someone wanted to pass some stiffer or harder harassment online laws-they could mine those guys to find gold.

    While they were trashing Marvel's America (which was BAD), how many good books got ignored? That they could have promoted?
    A writer did bring that up in his book's letter page. There's Nothing There by Patrick Kindlon. He said stop throwing fits over books you don't have to read and talk about the ones you do like.

  2. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    Man, its so obvious that people coming after Tom King are just using him as an avatar to attack Cancel Culture broadly.

    "Why didn't Tom King contact Jae Lee directly?"

    Just because he works in the same company, doesn't mean he has access to the personal information of other DC employees. He's gonna have to go through the company, and perhaps even make an internal complaint, the end result being that Jae Lee would most likely be shadow banned from the industry. Tom King's public admonishment of Jae Lee allowed the man to respond publicly too.

    I'm also not sure why people think this is good idea. If you suspected a work colleague of yours was a white supremacist, would you contact this person and have a chat with them? Also I'm just going to say, DC probably should not dole out personal information on a whim, like, seriously, this practice would lead to abuse immediately. It would be an extermination event for women in the industry.


    "Tom King shouldn't have judged Jae Lee so harshly!"

    Jae Lee never publicly distanced himself from his CG work. Tom King was acting in good faith on the only information available to the public in a manner that, in my opinion, led to the best outcome.

    "Why didn't Tom King denounce his company, major multi-national corporations and capitalism itself?"

    Because he wants to continue to work.
    DC is not going to give that to King because Lee is only doing a variant and not on the creative team.

    Jae Lee-he does more outside of comics than in it. So being banned wouldn't hurt his wallet.

    And it is interesting no one is going after ARCHIE COMICS. A Gator did a variant cover (a real nice one) for Archie #710. And it's the second time.

  3. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    Man, its so obvious that people coming after Tom King are just using him as an avatar to attack Cancel Culture broadly.
    I don't care about Cancel Culture. I do care about famous people abusing their position.

    "Why didn't Tom King contact Jae Lee directly?"

    Just because he works in the same company, doesn't mean he has access to the personal information of other DC employees. He's gonna have to go through the company, and perhaps even make an internal complaint, the end result being that Jae Lee would most likely be shadow banned from the industry. Tom King's public admonishment of Jae Lee allowed the man to respond publicly too.
    I don't know how it is at DC but at companies I've worked at in the past there was a directory which contained the contact info of everyone who worked there. Tom could've used that. He didn't need to go to HR and considering DC's track record with their employees even if Jae Lee had say sexually harassed someone going to them woudn't have made a difference. HR is there to cover the ass of the company not to look out for the workers there.

    I'm also not sure why people think this is good idea. If you suspected a work colleague of yours was a white supremacist, would you contact this person and have a chat with them? Also I'm just going to say, DC probably should not dole out personal information on a whim, like, seriously, this practice would lead to abuse immediately. It would be an extermination event for women in the industry.
    From someone who has dealt with racists and sexists at work what I've found is they'll try to test the waters to see if people support their garbage. They especially love to see Black people who debase themselves for their entertainment. When you don't take the bait (ex. ask them what this has to do with the job) they tend to shut up pretty quickly. Now if the person is management or above then that's a lot more serious and honestly much harder to deal with.

    However that's not what happened here. What I see is a white man higher up the chain who in his need to speak out against ComicsGate did not call out EVS but instead went after Jae Lee and put him on blast in front of strangers on Twitter.

    "Tom King worked for the CIA!"

    Jesus Christ, this is so irrelevant. I'm sorry Tom King hasn't denounced 20 years of his life and all the personal relationships he developed there or whatever, but even then people can do bad things and that doesn't make everything they do bad.
    So drawing a cover for a Comicsgate supporter (keep in mind Jae Lee didn't know) is worse that working for an institution built on enabling white supremacy?

    "Tom King shouldn't have judged Jae Lee so harshly!"

    Jae Lee never publicly distanced himself from his CG work. Tom King was acting in good faith on the only information available to the public in a manner that, in my opinion, led to the best outcome.
    Jae Lee did say he would quit drawing covers for EVS. As far as acting on good faith how I recall it working is intent does not matter if it still causes harm which is what Tom King did.

    "Why didn't Tom King denounce his company, major multi-national corporations and capitalism itself?"

    Because he wants to continue to work.
    So basically "cancel culture" (stupid term imo) is the only tool left for people who in the whole scheme of things have no real power at all and are atomized and isolated from each other. Got it.
    'Course in the case of people like the Tom Kings of the world they can punch down, say everything's okay, then only give an apology when the target says "Hey we're not cool".

  4. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy Diamond View Post
    If Tom King wanted to stand up to Comicsgate he could've gone after the companies who support them, the creators who promote them, or even just said "Hey, I don't support Comicsgate and here's why". If he was worried about Jae Lee seeing as how they were going to be working together he could've contacted him privately to talk instead of going straight to Twitter.
    He did, Jae Lee did a cover for one of them.


    The thing is the power difference between Jae Lee and Tom King is significant. From what I know, Jae Lee isn't a superstar artist like John Romita Jr. or Jim Lee. Tom King in contrast is one of the top writers at DC Comics. So when he uses his platform to cancel Jae Lee he's taking a guy who's one step above a regular employee and throwing him into the spotlight to say "Look at this man and what he has done!"
    Jae Lee's a big star in comics, has been for years or he used to be at any rate. The problem is that Jae's work tainted King by association, that's why he tried to serve connections because being connect ed to Comicsgate kills careers. If King hadn't said anything he was a risk of people thinking he was a supporter of Comicsgate. You're not wrong about the power thing, but there's more going on to this than that. King wasn't just destroying Jae's career on a whim because he felt like it, Comicsgate politics lit this fuse - which Jae Lee accidentally created when he accepted a commission from EVS. Where does the blame for EVS come in? Without him none of this happens.


    What does it say about Tom King that he judged Jae Lee to be a supporter of Comicsgate with little evidence?
    Or even better, why should Tom King be judging anyone considering he used to work for the CIA?
    It was compelling evidence, linked directly to Comicsgate itself by EVS. Judge King working for the CIA all you like. I do have a question, why has EVS vanished from your post? This is not just about Jae Lee and Tom King, it's about EVS.



    From what I know Comicsgate is like Gamergate and yeah they suck. However what Tom King did reminded me of the kinds of tactics the likes of Mike Cernovich used. Even if that was not the intent the end result was directing harassment and abuse to Jae Lee.
    King deserves blame here, but why is Jae Lee getting a pass for not doing his due diligence doing work for hate groups? Does Jae hold no responsibility for working with groups like Comicsgate? King's not even what started this, it was EVS.

    Where did Jae Lee ever say he'd stop working for EVS? EVS isn't mentioned in his statement.

  5. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    This incident nearly destroyed a man's career simply by being associated with Comicsgate, it was the perfect opportunity to condemn them for it.
    So let's see more of that and less victim blaming of Lee.


    True, which is horrible. Which is ok, except it was about shutting down all conversation about the subject - there will be no conversation with Jae Lee about Comicsgate over this. He wants no part of it. He didn't have do this now, he's in mourning but the door was shut completely. He said he would not talk about Comicsgate, he said nothing about his feelings about it or EVS. Neither subject were named in the statement.
    It doesn't take a genius to know what Lee meant when he said, "I'm not a part of any group". He's in the middle of dealing with a tragedy. He is under no obligation to talk about comicsgate ever again. It isn't like he alone is the only person that can deal with them.



    It's not that simple.
    It is actually. Lee is not a comicsgate supporter.

    by shutting down this conversation it made him working for someone in EVS circles easier.
    This is a great deal of mental gymnastics to make Lee's words seem more sinister than they are. Lee could not have been more clear that he wants nothing to do with people like Van Sciver.


    Comicsgate has made headline news, is discussed on comic sites and among professionals. Sure, some people have missed it but it's not a small thing, either.
    I've been following this story on several forums. Many people didn't know what comicsgate was until this incident. I could also ask why Lee's colleagues who talk so much about comicsgate didn't mention it to him. It's easy to think these guys are bigger than they are when you're plugged into social media so often.


    That wasn't your original argument, it was that more people need to do what Jae's doing.
    I made no such argument.

    You didn't answer my question, I'll ask again.
    Do I think writers and artists should take money from them? No. Do I think people should be metaphorically tarred and feathered for associating with them without knowing who they actually are? Also no and that is exactly what has been done to Lee.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 08-02-2020 at 07:59 PM.

  6. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    He did, Jae Lee did a cover for one of them.




    Jae Lee's a big star in comics, has been for years or he used to be at any rate. The problem is that Jae's work tainted King by association, that's why he tried to serve connections because being connect ed to Comicsgate kills careers. If King hadn't said anything he was a risk of people thinking he was a supporter of Comicsgate. You're not wrong about the power thing, but there's more going on to this than that. King wasn't just destroying Jae's career on a whim because he felt like it, Comicsgate politics lit this fuse - which Jae Lee accidentally created when he accepted a commission from EVS. Where does the blame for EVS come in? Without him none of this happens.




    It was compelling evidence, linked directly to Comicsgate itself by EVS. Judge King working for the CIA all you like. I do have a question, why has EVS vanished from your post? This is not just about Jae Lee and Tom King, it's about EVS.





    King deserves blame here, but why is Jae Lee getting a pass for not doing his due diligence doing work for hate groups? Does Jae hold no responsibility for working with groups like Comicsgate? King's not even what started this, it was EVS.

    Where did Jae Lee ever say he'd stop working for EVS? EVS isn't mentioned in his statement.
    Again, if comicsgate is the main problem here, what does it matter what Lee did or did not say?
    Last edited by Agent Z; 08-02-2020 at 08:02 PM.

  7. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Again, if comicsgate is the main problem here, what does it matter what Lee did or did not say?
    What's with this "if"? I've linked to the tweet linking Comicsgate by EVS to Jae Lee's cover upthread. It matters because people need to stop saying Jae said something when he didn't. And again, no mention of EVS. At this stage what Jae Lee is saying is crucial, this is the time PR is deployed to ward off scandals for celebrity and Jae Lee is a celebrity caught in a scandal. That's why he freaked out in his statement, he knows his career was in jeopardy. Do you think Jae should have accepted that commission by EVS? Do you think any professionals should do that with Comicsgate affiliated individuals/companies? Do you think EVS is in Comicsgate?

  8. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    What's with this "if"? I've linked to the tweet linking Comicsgate by EVS to Jae Lee's cover upthread. It matters because people need to stop saying Jae said something when he didn't.
    He did. You've just decided it isn't enough for you.
    Do you think Jae should have accepted that commission by EVS?
    If he'd know what Van Sciver was, no.

    Do you think any professionals should do that with Comicsgate affiliated individuals/companies?
    Already answered.

    Do you think EVS is in Comicsgate?
    Is this supposed to be a troll question?

    What's with this "if"?
    You're the one saying no one has called out comicsgate or Van Sciver when you've spent more time bashing Lee for not condemning them even though he has made it clear he wants nothing to do with them.

  9. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    He did. You've just decided it isn't enough for you.
    Please, quote the part he did this. I don't take hate movements lightly, the bar isn't very high to do this which is why it's disappointing to read Jae's response.

    If he'd know what Van Sciver was, no.
    Ok. What about Chuck Dixon?


    Already answered.
    But you didn't answer anything.

    Is this supposed to be a troll question?
    It's a very easy question to answer. Yes or no?

    You're the one saying no one has called out comicsgate or Van Sciver when you've spent more time bashing Lee for not condemning them even though he has made it clear he wants nothing to do with them.
    The "if" was aimed at King as though he wasn't trying to strike down Comicsate, which was false. I condemned King many, many times and its debatable about the last part. Please quote where he mentioned anything about stopping to work with EVS and Comicsgate? I didn't see either subject mentioned.

    This is Jae Lee's statement:

    https://www.cbr.com/jae-lee-response...te-accusation/

    Where did he say the things you're suggesting?

  10. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy Diamond View Post
    I don't know how it is at DC but at companies I've worked at in the past there was a directory which contained the contact info of everyone who worked there. Tom could've used that. He didn't need to go to HR and considering DC's track record with their employees even if Jae Lee had say sexually harassed someone going to them woudn't have made a difference. HR is there to cover the ass of the company not to look out for the workers there.
    I agree if Tom King went to DC directly, it would have likely led to a worse outcome then what we got. Corporations are far to ban ready right now.

    From someone who has dealt with racists and sexists at work what I've found is they'll try to test the waters to see if people support their garbage. They especially love to see Black people who debase themselves for their entertainment. When you don't take the bait (ex. ask them what this has to do with the job) they tend to shut up pretty quickly. Now if the person is management or above then that's a lot more serious and honestly much harder to deal with.
    I don't think Tom King should have to bait Jae Lee, a person who he doesn't know, into 'slipping' his mask off.

    However that's not what happened here. What I see is a white man higher up the chain who in his need to speak out against ComicsGate did not call out EVS but instead went after Jae Lee and put him on blast in front of strangers on Twitter.
    Because his name was now connected to Jae Lee. This is similar to a 'critic' against feminism I use to see, where Western feminists get called hypocrites for not talking about women in Saudi Arabia...a place they do not live in and have no influence. Generally speaking, you should prioritize making changes you think you actually can accomplish. EVS has already immunized himself from attack; he doesn't work in the mainstream industry, his brand is mostly known by most people, and his income is from like-minded adherents so that can't be easily targeted as well.

    So drawing a cover for a Comicsgate supporter (keep in mind Jae Lee didn't know) is worse that working for an institution built on enabling white supremacy?
    I'm saying that Tom King's CIA credentials don't matter. Even if Tom King was a mass murderer (which seems to be the implication here), he can still be right on this issue. Also you should attack institutions broadly, and not the people that work in these places. Tom King joined the CIA after 9/11, which was a broader trend at the time, and not to uphold white supremacy.

    Jae Lee did say he would quit drawing covers for EVS. As far as acting on good faith how I recall it working is intent does not matter if it still causes harm which is what Tom King did.
    You can't always know the outcome of an action before you do it, but if you acted in good faith in the information available to the public, you shouldn't be raked over the coals as King now is.

    So basically "cancel culture" (stupid term imo) is the only tool left for people who in the whole scheme of things have no real power at all and are atomized and isolated from each other. Got it.
    'Course in the case of people like the Tom Kings of the world they can punch down, say everything's okay, then only give an apology when the target says "Hey we're not cool".
    There have been tons of liberals who have been cancelled as well.
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  11. #326
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    Tom king's CIA credentials should matter.

    How does a former CIA Operations Officer fail at the literal thing that used to be his bread and Butter? Researching and fact checking prior to recruitment. That's what Ops officers do. It should be second nature to King.

    This was a huge and harmful blunder on his part.

    A writer as high profile as King with such a large following on Twitter should be aware of the influence he has.

    Tom King should learn to tweet responsively. How he finds time to tweet so much with all the thing's he's working on is beyond me.

    For those saying that well he apologised. I guess we are all good now right because he apologised? smh
    Last edited by dietrich; 08-05-2020 at 12:03 AM.

  12. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Please, quote the part he did this. I don't take hate movements lightly, the bar isn't very high to do this which is why it's disappointing to read Jae's response.
    There is nothing disappointing about Lee's response. It is a very understandable and crystal clear statement about where he stands. The mental gymnastics you're using to make it look bad are worthy of an Olympic gold medal. Lee made clear his distancing from comicsgate and refusal to work with them while dealing with a tragedy and a pretty crappy week.



    Ok. What about Chuck Dixon?
    What about Chuck Dixon? You're all over the place in this conversation.


    But you didn't answer anything.
    Read the rest of my comments on this page.

    It's a very easy question to answer. Yes or no?
    It's a stupid question to ask when you and I no the answer to it and not once has anyone suggested Van Sciver is not in comicsgate. You're making arguments here that no one else is actually having.



    The "if" was aimed at King as though he wasn't trying to strike down Comicsate, which was false.
    Like here for example.

    I condemned King many, many times and its debatable about the last part.
    You had one comment criticizing King and have spent the rest of this conversation bashing Lee for not condemning comicsgate the way you want.

    Please quote where he mentioned anything about stopping to work with EVS and Comicsgate? I didn't see either subject mentioned.

    This is Jae Lee's statement:

    https://www.cbr.com/jae-lee-response...te-accusation/

    Where did he say the things you're suggesting?
    Let me be clear, I'm not part of ANY group.
    I'm sorry but you have to be really obtuse to not get what this is clearly referring to.

  13. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    I agree if Tom King went to DC directly, it would have likely led to a worse outcome then what we got. Corporations are far to ban ready right now.
    Many of these bans came from something that was said by or about someone on social media. Lee could just as easily have ended up blacklisted as a result of what King did. Handling this in private at least means it wouldn't be scandalized and meant an investigation could be done at a far better time.


    I don't think Tom King should have to bait Jae Lee, a person who he doesn't know, into 'slipping' his mask off.
    But insinuating he was part of a hate group based on flimsy evidence was better?


    Because his name was now connected to Jae Lee. This is similar to a 'critic' against feminism I use to see, where Western feminists get called hypocrites for not talking about women in Saudi Arabia...a place they do not live in and have no influence. Generally speaking, you should prioritize making changes you think you actually can accomplish. EVS has already immunized himself from attack; he doesn't work in the mainstream industry, his brand is mostly known by most people, and his income is from like-minded adherents so that can't be easily targeted as well.
    Let me get this straight; King shouldn't have gone after Van Sciver, the self-proclaimed leader of comicsgate, because he's "immunized from attack" but potentially getting a guy who wasn't actually a part of comicsgate blacklisted was acceptable? What even is the point of combating comicsgate then?

    I'm saying that Tom King's CIA credentials don't matter. Even if Tom King was a mass murderer (which seems to be the implication here), he can still be right on this issue. Also you should attack institutions broadly, and not the people that work in these places. Tom King joined the CIA after 9/11, which was a broader trend at the time, and not to uphold white supremacy.
    Personally speaking I don't think King should be condemned for his CIA service but the people looking to cancel Lee for doing one cover for comicsgate when he didn't know what they were aren't being consistent.

    You can't always know the outcome of an action before you do it, but if you acted in good faith in the information available to the public, you shouldn't be raked over the coals as King now is.
    So why doesn't this apply to Lee?

  14. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Tom king's CIA credentials should matter.

    How does a former CIA Operations Officer fail at the literal thing that used to be his bread and Butter? Researching and fact checking prior to recruitment. That's what Ops officers do. It should be second nature to King.

    This was a huge and harmful blunder on his part.

    A writer as high profile as King with such a large following on Twitter should be aware of the influence he has.

    Tom King should learn to tweet responsively. How he finds time to tweet so much with all the thing's he's working on is beyond me.

    For those saying that well he apologised. I guess we are all good now right because he apologised? smh
    What do you people think Tom King did at the CIA? Just because he worked for the CIA doesn't mean he was involved in research or conspiring to overthrow anti-American regimes.

    Also, I keep hearing that that King didn't do his research, but all the evidence that vindicated Jae Lee came out because of this event. King acted the way he did because Jae Lee did work for EVS and that was really all we knew at the time regarding Lee's association with CG. Jae Lee admits he stays off social media, so his political believes aren't obvious.
    Last edited by Pinsir; 08-05-2020 at 12:34 PM.
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  15. #330
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    How he finds time to tweet so much with all the thing's he's working on is beyond me.
    Our President finds time. Just saying.

    Also we don't know how far ahead that new series is done script wise. If the script for the entire series is done and approved-what does he have left to do?


    https://www.indeed.com/q-Counter-Ter...1848b0da397530
    https://www.ciaagentedu.org/counterterrorism-analyst/

    Here are the job requirements for Counter Terrorism Officer or as close as I could find.

    This was the actual job he did for the CIA.

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