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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    THIS might be the best Steve Trevor, since the Golden Age, I think! American James Bond.
    I haven’t watched that in a while. A great depiction of a debonair, but not smarmy, secret agent Steve.

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    However, I think we all agree no love tringles those things have been overplayed.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    However, I think we all agree no love tringles those things have been overplayed.
    It depends on the triangle. If it’s an interesting one and a fun set of circumstances I’m here for it.

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    Honestly, I've been in favor of an A list writer revamping Diana's supporting cast for a while now. DC keeps putting smaller writers on her book and no one takes those runs seriously, leading to the next writer just doing their own thing.

  5. #35
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    Honestly, I've been in favor of an A list writer revamping Diana's supporting cast for a while now. DC keeps putting smaller writers on her book and no one takes those runs seriously, leading to the next writer just doing their own thing.
    I've noticed this a lot. Shea Fontana, GWW, Mariko Tamaki, who's next? I don't know which A-lister would be a good fit though, there isn't someone that I know who cares about WW's supporting cast, history, and power that would be a good fit.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  6. #36
    Mighty Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    I've noticed this a lot. Shea Fontana, GWW, Mariko Tamaki, who's next? I don't know which A-lister would be a good fit though, there isn't someone that I know who cares about WW's supporting cast, history, and power that would be a good fit.
    Based off JLD, I'd be interested to see James Tynion writing the main book. Depending on how Historia goes I'd be interested in maybe Kelly Sue DeConnick on the book.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    Honestly, I've been in favor of an A list writer revamping Diana's supporting cast for a while now. DC keeps putting smaller writers on her book and no one takes those runs seriously, leading to the next writer just doing their own thing.
    I think looking to A-list writers—as those that are in regular rotation on high-profile comics titles—to do something impactful and interesting with Diana is a fool's errand. They are too stuck in the established mainstream of comics. Look at how Grant Morrison treated her when he got Earth One.

    I think G Willow Wilson had interesting stuff to say about Diana, but she was hobbled by events, prior continuity, a chaotic art situation, and introduced a story with poor pacing.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  8. #38
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    No offense to anyone, but I don't get why we always have these new "Steve!?" threads; we have this same conversation every few weeks like clockwork and a half dozen threads dedicated to it already, why are we making new threads to continue what we've already been discussing? Maybe we need an all purpose Steve thread instead of more narrow, specific ones?

    There's nothing wrong with Steve conceptually; the problem is the entire WW mythos and the lack of quality and excess inconsistency that has plagued it for longer than most of us have been alive. Want Diana's love life to be better than it is? Want her supporting cast to be treated better? You gotta tackle the entire franchise, because there's nothing fundamentally wrong with any of the individual parts on a base level. Fixing Steve should only be part of a larger conversation about the Wonder-verse as a whole, and if we fix one part but ignore the others, the one part we fix will end up being broken again by the rest anyway.

    And considering how little Steve has been used, I find the idea that he's "played out" a bit silly. He's underutilized, often poorly written, certainly not over played.

    My quick and dirty solution to the Steve "problem" is to write him like Marvel's Captain America, sans powers and shield. It's not far removed from many of Steve's prior characterizations, especially since the New52, it's a character archetype that people easily recognize and are predisposed to like thanks to the MCU, and it keeps all of Steve's primary themes, roles, and traits intact while leaving plenty of room to fine-tune things and make Steve Trevor more than just a cheap copy of Cap (and he does have a number of unique personality traits....when anyone at DC bothers to do their research).

    Getting into the details, I understand some posters here are fairly anti-military but removing this facet from Steve changes who he is to such a degree he's no longer Steve. If that's your goal just make a new character. If you're disgruntled with the military-industrial complex (and you should be) then explore that from Steve's perspective; you think you're angry? Imagine living in it like he does. I'd much rather see a story where Steve deals with the problems we have in the military than a story that just abandons the concept and/or ignores it because someone finds it uncomfortable. Is nobody interested in watching a good man confront the problems within his institution? Is that not an inspirational tale to tell, and one that we all should be pursuing right now given the state of the country? Not to mention the plethora of narratives that are made easily available by Steve's job. You cut the military out and you've cut one of the legs off the entire franchise. Less options and less variety is the very last thing Wonder Woman needs right now.

    Regarding a rival love interest....I have nothing against the idea, but I feel like that's something the franchise doesn't need right now. We have so many elements in the mythos that needs work and refinement, I think those need to be dealt with before new aspects are introduced. Let's get Etta and Steve and Diana and everything else on solid ground, maybe even find a place for Donna and Cassie even! and *then* consider adding new wrinkles. Once all that is settled, then sure we can try a rival love interest. It'll have to be handled carefully; Diana knows what and who she wants and doesn't play games, but it can be done well if the writer knows their business. I'd especially welcome a *female* rival love interest, so we can finally delve into Diana's bisexuality, possibly even explore the idea of a poly dynamic. I don't trust DC enough to handle that well, but if they can fix all the problems Diana has then they will have improved their quality a lot from where we are now.

    As for how Steve fits with Diana being a WWII era hero.....I don't know what DC intends to do there; probably have Steve involved in Di's origin and be dead in the modern day or something. That seems like it'd fit DC's constant efforts to have their cake and eat it too. I won't comment on this much since we don't know what DC planned to do and who knows what's being changed from that original idea now that Didio is gone and the pandemic shut the world down for so long. Once we know what is being done with this, I'll bitch about it then.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  9. #39
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    I'm sorry if Lois and Selina can stay why not Steve. We have seen Steve used well. It's unfair to say it's time to get rid of him. Just because he has some bad runs means nothing. Selina and Lois both have bad runs that don't mean they will get rid of him. Once again Marston shows us that Steve has a lot outside the military going for him. He likes working with kids. He has a sister. This is why giving him something outside the military to do. Why does his family need to be evil? Both Marston and Rucka have written Steve well. Once again in the comics, he did stop the League. Not only that but thanks to Diana he should know how to at least stop certain things without Diana. Like what if he made a machine. With Diana what about his religious views.
    I don't think its time to get rid of him, but at the same time he's not really comparable to Lois and Selina if we're being honest. They are far, far more popular characters and always has been. Steve was basically designed to be Diana's Lois, but he never resonated like she did. So they have a lot more backing them at this point of time from a legacy perspective. Everyone knows who Lois Lane and Catwoman are. I'm betting when the movie came out, Chris Pine's Steve was the first a lot of people ever even heard of him. Again, I don't think he needs to be gotten rid of, but he needs to be built on a lot, because he's not in Lois Lane's stratosphere.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  10. #40
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Comparing anyone to Lois Lane is often a fool's errand. There are decades old characters who have head-lined their own books for years, held membership in major team titles, who are less developed and well known than Lois Lane.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    No offense to anyone, but I don't get why we always have these new "Steve!?" threads; we have this same conversation every few weeks like clockwork and a half dozen threads dedicated to it already, why are we making new threads to continue what we've already been discussing? Maybe we need an all purpose Steve thread instead of more narrow, specific ones?
    Steve Trevor appreciation thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Getting into the details, I understand some posters here are fairly anti-military but removing this facet from Steve changes who he is to such a degree he's no longer Steve. If that's your goal just make a new character. If you're disgruntled with the military-industrial complex (and you should be) then explore that from Steve's perspective; you think you're angry? Imagine living in it like he does. I'd much rather see a story where Steve deals with the problems we have in the military than a story that just abandons the concept and/or ignores it because someone finds it uncomfortable. Is nobody interested in watching a good man confront the problems within his institution? Is that not an inspirational tale to tell, and one that we all should be pursuing right now given the state of the country? Not to mention the plethora of narratives that are made easily available by Steve's job. You cut the military out and you've cut one of the legs off the entire franchise. Less options and less variety is the very last thing Wonder Woman needs right now.
    I'm not sure the non-military Steve sentiment is that widespread. I think I'm the primary proponent for it here, and I've always got plenty of disagreement.

    First, I think the current Steve we have—special operations soldier, high-level ARGUS guy—is rather far from Steve as originally envisioned. For me, the most important piece of his character is being a pilot than being a soldier.

    Second, I don't think that the title should avoid the problems with modern militarism. My vision for writing a new Steve is to make him an active member of the US military—as a pilot—when he meets Diana. The decision to leave the military would be Steve's character arc after returning to Man's World. It would be the opposite of avoiding something uncomfortable—it would be addressing it head-on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I don't think its time to get rid of him, but at the same time he's not really comparable to Lois and Selina if we're being honest. They are far, far more popular characters and always has been. Steve was basically designed to be Diana's Lois, but he never resonated like she did. So they have a lot more backing them at this point of time from a legacy perspective. Everyone knows who Lois Lane and Catwoman are. I'm betting when the movie came out, Chris Pine's Steve was the first a lot of people ever even heard of him. Again, I don't think he needs to be gotten rid of, but he needs to be built on a lot, because he's not in Lois Lane's stratosphere.
    No, I think Steve was originally constructed in another way than Lois or Catwoman. Fundamentally, Lois and (especially!) Catwoman were there to challenge the hero in different ways, even if especially Lois was created very crudely in the beginning. Steve, on the other hand, was the bland observer of the colourful protagonist, and partly the character who would be challenged by Diana.

    So he's playing a different role than a distaff Lois, and should be approached on his own terms and merits.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  12. #42
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Steve Trevor appreciation thread?
    Maybe. I dunno, I always feel bad talking about the problems of a character in an appreciation thread. But that's my hangup.

    I'm not sure the non-military Steve sentiment is that widespread. I think I'm the primary proponent for it here, and I've always got plenty of disagreement.
    Is it mostly just you? I feel like there's more people than that with the same viewpoint? I dunno, maybe I just read a bunch of your posts on the subject at once and didn't notice it was the same person.

    First, I think the current Steve we have—special operations soldier, high-level ARGUS guy—is rather far from Steve as originally envisioned. For me, the most important piece of his character is being a pilot than being a soldier.
    Sure, but it's kinda six of one, half dozen of the other. I think Steve being spec ops is more an evolution of his original role; back in the day pilots were the crazy cool people in the military, but now it's the spec ops guys. Steve's job has just shifted to keep the thematics intact.

    Second, I don't think that the title should avoid the problems with modern militarism. My vision for writing a new Steve is to make him an active member of the US military—as a pilot—when he meets Diana. The decision to leave the military would be Steve's character arc after returning to Man's World. It would be the opposite of avoiding something uncomfortable—it would be addressing it head-on.
    I get it. I'd just rather see him stay and work to solve the problems/challenges instead of leaving. Once he leaves, he can't deal with those issues to any real degree. And it still cuts out easy access to a real big chunk of Diana's foundation.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Is it mostly just you? I feel like there's more people than that with the same viewpoint? I dunno, maybe I just read a bunch of your posts on the subject at once and didn't notice it was the same person.
    Oh, I think I've seen some posters here put up the same sentiment, but I'm fairly sure I'm the main proponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Sure, but it's kinda six of one, half dozen of the other. I think Steve being spec ops is more an evolution of his original role; back in the day pilots were the crazy cool people in the military, but now it's the spec ops guys. Steve's job has just shifted to keep the thematics intact.
    I'm not sure I agree. World War Two got a lot of lionisation of stuff like the commandos. Also, the pilots were as close to knights—noble warriors as individuals—as modern militaries could get. It was perhaps most prevalent in the First World War, but still remained in the Second World War. But nothing of that can be found with special operations soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I get it. I'd just rather see him stay and work to solve the problems/challenges instead of leaving. Once he leaves, he can't deal with those issues to any real degree. And it still cuts out easy access to a real big chunk of Diana's foundation.
    On the other hand, superhero comics are lousy with military, ex-military, and cops, and the closest thing we have had to questioning those institutions in superhero comics is (AFAICT) with Batwoman, and that was strictly a DADT issue. I think that any real handling of Steve's relation to the military needs a real firm conclusion in the story arc for any criticism of the military to feel worthwhile. Otherwise it's just a return to the status quo and another episode of the week.

    If Diana's forte among DC's superheroes is the one to stop wars, then I don't really see a need for her to be connected to the military anyway. Diplomacy and politics will be more important.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  14. #44
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    On the other hand, superhero comics are lousy with military, ex-military, and cops, and the closest thing we have had to questioning those institutions in superhero comics is (AFAICT) with Batwoman, and that was strictly a DADT issue. I think that any real handling of Steve's relation to the military needs a real firm conclusion in the story arc for any criticism of the military to feel worthwhile. Otherwise it's just a return to the status quo and another episode of the week.

    If Diana's forte among DC's superheroes is the one to stop wars, then I don't really see a need for her to be connected to the military anyway. Diplomacy and politics will be more important.
    Culture as a whole has done little to confront the imbalances in law enforcement and the military; that's why we're at the point we are right now, so I feel like holding this against comics is a bit unfair; not only are they far from the only industry to ignore the problems, this is a problem we as a society are only now starting to give a sh*t about on a national level.

    And if Steve were to confront these problems, yes he'd have to come to a conclusion regarding how he feels about it and what he'll do about it. But that's not necessarily the end of the story, it could easily be the start of it. He's a high ranking officer in America's most advanced military organization and has direct ties to some of the most celebrated individuals in the world; he has the pull to actually fight for and enact positive change. People want a spin and a hook for Steve? Building a better military could be it. You can get actual progress out of that mission as he successfully makes some changes, but altering the entire landscape is such a big goal it's easily an open-ended narrative as well. Military reform could easily be Steve's Never Ending Battle. And if, in a few years we see some changes in the real world and things improve, that'll be reflected in the fiction and Steve can say "I helped make a difference" and go back to being a happy soldier without disrupting his entire character or the mythos.

    I feel like if Steve looks at the military and says "Yeah, we're not doing everything the way we should and we need to change some stuff" and then he just gives up and retires? I can't respect a dude who is in a position to fight for change and just walks away. You *could* have him shift into politics, where he can push for better policy from that perspective, but that's trading in one institution with *some* problems for an institution that is nothing *but* problems. It's not an improvement. And while the military answers to politicians, that doesn't mean they respect those people; Steve would be better off inside that system. I wouldn't necessarily be against Steve becoming a Senator or something, but not because the military is "too corrupt" or something like that.
    Last edited by Ascended; 07-20-2020 at 01:57 PM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  15. #45
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Steve being a WW1 pilot, like in the film, or a WW2 pilot like in the comics is a far cry from being whatever he is now. That was a very different time.

    I'd go with Steve being ex military trying to get back into society and maybe running a support group for vets. He's a capable man but gravely disillusioned by society, and believes greatly in Diana's message.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 07-20-2020 at 02:31 PM.

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