Rank in Reaction Speed II

[Cronus]

The Runner is the “gold standard” here. Given his top stuff, how do the following speedsters rank and/or compare to him and each other?


• Barry Allan (silver age)

• Wally West (post Crisis, pre Flashpoint)

• Eobard Thawne (new 52 through Rebirth)

• Black Racer (post crisis feats or new 52 acceptable)


Bonus: Superman Blue

Bonus, bonus! - Bart Allan (Impulse through Fastest Man Alive)

[Pendaran]

the Runner is so fast that someone who benchmarks around Wally in speed could only "guh" at how fast the Runner is.

So... Silver Age Barry/Runner tie-ish at the top, then Wally West, then Thawne, and I have no idea where to put the Racer really.

[Beadle]

Yeah, what he said.

With the bonuses, I’d put Bart at the bottom of the current list and then Superman Blue below that.

And I still wouldn’t know what to do with Black Racer. Except burn that costume.

[Superfan90]

the Runner is so fast that someone who benchmarks around Wally in speed could only "guh" at how fast the Runner is.

So... Silver Age Barry/Runner tie-ish at the top, then Wally West, then Thawne, and I have no idea where to put the Racer really.

Wasn't Runner unable to escape a black hole in the same run by Steve Englehart? His speed is all over the place. For what it's worth Champion said that Surfer was weakened when he fought Runner.

[Beadle]

The story in question was in Gruenwald’s Quasar run, not Englehart’s Surfer.

And Runner was operating at stupid speeds as well. But IIIRC, once he realised he was getting embarrassed by Makkari, he then, like Makkari, used the Whatever Speed thing and couldn’t control it either. So the *cough* ‘Buried Alien’ (Barry Allen) won the race.

[Superfan90]

The story in question was in Gruenwald’s Quasar run, not Englehart’s Surfer.

And Runner was operating at stupid speeds as well. But IIIRC, once he realised he was getting embarrassed by Makkari, he then, like Makkari, used the Whatever Speed thing and couldn’t control it either. So the *cough* ‘Buried Alien’ (Barry Allen) won the race.

No, I'm talking about when he fought Surfer which Pendaran is talking about. Runner has very few appearances in which he sometimes blitzes Surfer, gets tripped over by Mantis, runs across galaxy, can't run at the speed of light, can't escape a black hole etc. His speed is all over the place.

[Pendaran]

Wasn't Runner unable to escape a black hole in the same run by Steve Englehart? His speed is all over the place. For what it's worth Champion said that Surfer was weakened when he fought Runner.

Given the nature of the defeat the Surfer inflicted on Champion and the outright big ol "everything back to normal" end warp of the Grandmaster thing where Korvac showed up, that largely came off as Champion trying to save face. Given Champion's overall.. how to put it.. personality ever since his first appearance, it definitely comes off as Champion trying to save face.

No, I'm talking about when he fought Surfer which Pendaran is talking about. Runner has very few appearances in which he sometimes blitzes Surfer, gets tripped over by Mantis, runs across galaxy, can't run at the speed of light, can't escape a black hole etc. His speed is all over the place.

The thing of the Runner barely existing is that things like Mantis tripping him and the black hole thing thus get lot less weight to a guy whose presentation and high end feats otherwise go up there.

(also the time he couldn't go lightspeed makes no sense considering the sheer astronomical distances everyone was going in that race, but that's something else). That he can otherwise as it happens do the ultimate speed thing Makkari can do or can at least move to interact with him in that mode, that he can blitz the Surfer, that he can cross galactic distance while straight up running, honestly that's all fine. The whole idea of him is stupid fast, and he backs it up enough to his fractional blip of an existence.

[Pendaran]

I mean here are the Runner's first two appearances: Running across galaxies with Moondragon. Being faster than the Silver Surfer as part of kicking his ass. It's not like he doesn't then do a couple other things that live up to that in the blip of his "shows up and does a thing" existence.

[Superfan90]

Given the nature of the defeat the Surfer inflicted on Champion and the outright big ol "everything back to normal" end warp of the Grandmaster thing where Korvac showed up, that largely came off as Champion trying to save face. Given Champion's overall.. how to put it.. personality ever since his first appearance, it definitely comes off as Champion trying to save face.



The thing of the Runner barely existing is that things like Mantis tripping him and the black hole thing thus get lot less weight to a guy whose presentation and high end feats otherwise go up there.

(also the time he couldn't go lightspeed makes no sense considering the sheer astronomical distances everyone was going in that race, but that's something else). That he can otherwise as it happens do the ultimate speed thing Makkari can do or can at least move to interact with him in that mode, that he can blitz the Surfer, that he can cross galactic distance while straight up running, honestly that's all fine. The whole idea of him is stupid fast, and he backs it up enough to his fractional blip of an existence.

That's my view as well regarding Champion. But it casts a doubt nonetheless.

IMO Englehart didn't show Surfer FTL without going into hyperspace (he outright says in issue 2 that he can fly at near light speed and was unable to escape from the same black hole which Runner was trapped in until Galactus saves all of them). I don't know the forum consensus on this though but there isn't anything to suggest Surfer was FTL (reaction wise) under Englehart. Just my opinion.

[Superfan90]

I mean here are the Runner's first two appearances: Running across galaxies with Moondragon. Being faster than the Silver Surfer as part of kicking his ass. It's not like he doesn't then do a couple other things that live up to that in the blip of his "shows up and does a thing" existence.

Yeah, but Defenders issue Runner was retconned by Englehart IMO (In Defenders issue Runner says he can't stop at all or he will die, that's not a case for Englehart's Runner). I'm not saying Runner isn't stupidly fast, just that save his Defenders appearance, he doesn't displays FTL speed anywhere else (Englehart didn't write a FTL reflexes Surfer IMO).

[Superfan90]

Also Energy Superman was explicitly FTL (seeing microseconds as hours is pretty cool too).





He also flew across the Earth so fast that even Wally had trouble seeing him.

https://imgur.com/a/7HWE6Sh

[Pendaran]

That's my view as well regarding Champion. But it casts a doubt nonetheless.

Given the actual content of the comics he's talking about, it really doesn't. Particularly when Champion got beat up to the point that at fight's end the Surfer is standing over him going "hey jackass, wake up!". The idea that said fight weakened him doesn't track. He was entirely fine to engage in a bunch of involved moves and performances right after it, in the same comic.

And again, the Grandmaster thing just got outright unmade.

You have to work really hard against the content of both comics and in favour of a character with a known fragile ego to read into them that way.

It casts no real doubt.

It's just the elders bickering and Champion trying to be all "you only beat him because I softened him up for you!" like the Surfer was a jar of pickles he couldn't open and then the Runner came along and did.

IMO Englehart didn't show Surfer FTL without going into hyperspace (he outright says in issue 2 that he can fly at near light speed and was unable to escape from the same black hole which Runner was trapped in until Galactus saves all of them). I don't know the forum consensus on this though but there isn't anything to suggest Surfer was FTL (reaction wise) under Englehart. Just my opinion.

The very first issue Englehart wrote him in had Surfer outracing things like detonation signals he himself triggered, moving at "star spanning speeds". Even on something as simple as travel time he left Earth's solar system like nothing without going into hyperspace. We just see him in motion.

[Pendaran]

Yeah, but Defenders issue Runner was retconned by Englehart IMO (In Defenders issue Runner says he can't stop at all or he will die, that's not a case for Englehart's Runner). I'm not saying Runner isn't stupidly fast, just that save his Defenders appearance, he doesn't displays FTL speed anywhere else (Englehart didn't write a FTL reflexes Surfer IMO).

You are now saying that the entire comic with Moondragon never happened because of that? Your proof for this being that Englehart decided the Runner could stop?

That's definitely interesting, because, the Runner could in fact also stop for various periods in said Defenders comic. He stood there talking with Moondragon at the sun that was going to go supernova. He stood there talking with Moondragon while macking on her and convincing her to come running with him.

for instance:

https://imgur.com/a/sQO3yWh

He is outright standing in place.

https://imgur.com/a/9GqTAk5

More standing in place.

(Englehart didn't write a FTL reflexes Surfer IMO).

An opinion that doesn't really hold a lot of water considering even the above.

[Beadle]

Also Energy Superman was explicitly FTL (seeing microseconds as hours is pretty cool too).





He also flew across the Earth so fast that even Wally had trouble seeing him.

https://imgur.com/a/7HWE6Sh

Just gonna point out the hilarity of the “Faster than light. Faster than lightning.” thing being used as if the lightning comment somehow makes it even more impressive. It doesn’t. It might as well say “Faster than light. Faster than something much slower than light.”

Also, given Wally’s speed otherwise, saying he had trouble seeing Superblue is kinda sorta huge amounts of bullshit too. Maybe he didn’t have his contact lenses in that day...?

[The Arbiter]

A jar of pickles flying through deep space on a surfboard.

That's my biggest takeaway from this thread.