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  1. #16
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Just a quick continuity note regarding the Surfer:

    The Engleheart run no doubt was influenced in terms of how to express Surfer's powers by Mark Gruenwald who spearheaded The Official Handbook of The Marvel Universe. Mr Gruenwald was a proponent of making comics conform to real world science, particularly when it came to FTL travel. Early copies of TOHOTMU indicate Surfer could not exceed light speed without entering hyperspace first. Without covering all the details, this created inconsistencies in prior FTL showings for Surfer as well as subsequent inconsistencies. I'm saying some writers took their cue from Gruenwald, others, notably Jim Starlin (see Infinity Gauntlet), continued to write the Surfer as FTL without ever mentioning hyperspace.
    Last edited by Cronus; 07-16-2020 at 10:19 AM.
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  3. #18
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    Just a quick continuity note regarding the Surfer:

    The Engleheart run no doubt was influenced in terms of how to express Surfer's powers by Mark Gruenwald who spearheaded The Official Handbook of The Marvel Universe. Mr Gruenwald was a proponent of making comics conform to real world science, particularly when it came to FTL travel. Early copies of TOHOTMU indicate Surfer could not exceed light speed without entering hyperspace first. Without covering all the details, this created inconsistencies in prior FTL showings for Surfer as well as subsequent inconsistencies. I'm saying some writers took their cue from Gruenwald, others, notably Jim Starlin (see Infinity Gauntlet), continued to write the Surfer as FTL without ever mentioning hyperspace.
    Marvel used to work like that: some writers wrote that exceeding light speed required hyperspace, some wrote that exceeding light speed literally PUT you in hyperspace. That was the TOHOTMU position, very consistently: so and so can go light speed, and exceed it, going into hyperspace. It's a tenuous grip on physics, but it's better than "I can go billions of times light speed in normal space 'cause fast." That, however, is what we are left with.
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  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    Just a quick continuity note regarding the Surfer:

    The Engleheart run no doubt was influenced in terms of how to express Surfer's powers by Mark Gruenwald who spearheaded The Official Handbook of The Marvel Universe. Mr Gruenwald was a proponent of making comics conform to real world science, particularly when it came to FTL travel. Early copies of TOHOTMU indicate Surfer could not exceed light speed without entering hyperspace first. Without covering all the details, this created inconsistencies in prior FTL showings for Surfer as well as subsequent inconsistencies. I'm saying some writers took their cue from Gruenwald, others, notably Jim Starlin (see Infinity Gauntlet), continued to write the Surfer as FTL without ever mentioning hyperspace.
    Once again, flying out of Earth's solar system under his own power just fine, outracing detonation signals he himself triggers, all in issue one of his run. If Englehart took his cues from that, he only did so on and off.

  5. #20
    BANNED The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    I mean here are the Runner's first two appearances: Running across galaxies with Moondragon. Being faster than the Silver Surfer as part of kicking his ass. It's not like he doesn't then do a couple other things that live up to that in the blip of his "shows up and does a thing" existence.
    Why not treat as a SBP thing then? Technically Superboy Primes early appearances also have him moving around planets and reacting to Wally West

    If the Runner's feats are so choppy right from the beginning such that even the victory over the Surfer has an asterisk on it, why treat him different from Prime, who also has very few appearances

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Why not treat as a SBP thing then? Technically Superboy Primes early appearances also have him moving around planets and reacting to Wally West

    If the Runner's feats are so choppy right from the beginning such that even the victory over the Surfer has an asterisk on it, why treat him different from Prime, who also has very few appearances
    Because they're not choppy right from the beginning, his two beginning feats, in separate comics, under separate writers are "run across galaxies" and "curbstomp the Silver Surfer, involving speed." It's not like he does Superboy Prime's exciting move of "not even be consistent within panels."

    There is also no asterisk on his victory over the Surfer, just a guy saying "well since Champion said a thing while the elders are arguing, I can ignore the actual stated content of both these comics being referred to." unless I missed something.

    What asterisk is otherwise on said victory?

  7. #22
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Marvel used to work like that: some writers wrote that exceeding light speed required hyperspace, some wrote that exceeding light speed literally PUT you in hyperspace. That was the TOHOTMU position, very consistently: so and so can go light speed, and exceed it, going into hyperspace. It's a tenuous grip on physics, but it's better than "I can go billions of times light speed in normal space 'cause fast." That, however, is what we are left with.
    And then of course, there was Quasar and the quantum jump. It's like, how many ways does hyperspace work in one fictional universe?
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  8. #23
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Once again, flying out of Earth's solar system under his own power just fine, outracing detonation signals he himself triggers, all in issue one of his run. If Englehart took his cues from that, he only did so on and off.
    Not just outracing the signals, but outpacing the signals to the point of, "...I've detonated the signals, upon impacting 2 vibranium walls, located Nova, then grabbed her...now the signals arrived...".

    Like you say, all this at star spanning speed. Not sure how one attains star spanning speed without going FTL. Its like... in that feat, Engleheart was trying to reconcile star spanning speed with BFR'ing oneself into hyperspace.

    But yeah, pretty much.
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  9. #24
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Just while I'm there, since apparently Elders saying things means so much while bickering and one of them is clearly just trying to save face, the Collector, on seeing the Surfer in person after both events have happened offers "Ah, I see you have returned from the dominion of the dead with an undiminished will!"

    So what is this asterisk? In the comic where the Surfer beats Champion, he's perfectly fine afterwards. In the Avengers annual Death restores everyone to life like nothing had ever happened. The Collector otherwise notes what he notes.

    But while I'm really there, even in the scan provided of "oh clearly Champion has now shown we should super doubt that showing anyway" the Contemplator calls him out that he did not come here "to learn of injured egos"

    This feels pretty hard like trying to create a context for something that does not exist unless there's something else to be provided.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 07-16-2020 at 11:20 AM.

  10. #25
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    Not just outracing the signals, but outpacing the signals to the point of, "...I've detonated the signals, upon impacting 2 vibranium walls, located Nova, then grabbed her...now the signals arrived...".

    Like you say, all this at star spanning speed. Not sure how one attains star spanning speed without going FTL. Its like... in that feat, Engleheart was trying to reconcile star spanning speed with BFR'ing oneself into hyperspace.

    But yeah, pretty much.
    Well, no, he wasn't. There was no hyperspace in that instance. The Surfer just flew around. And in a big ol chunk of Engleharts stuff the Surfer just.. flies around.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Well, no, he wasn't. There was no hyperspace in that instance. The Surfer just flew around. And in a big ol chunk of Engleharts stuff the Surfer just.. flies around.
    I dont mean Engleheart was literally trying to reconcile the showing in SS 2 (edit: correction, SS #1, 1987 run) with hyperspace. Like you say, hyperspace was never mentioned specifically there. But hyperspace was utilized by Engleheart in that run on several occasions. Issue 9, issue 15, issue 16...there may be others. But suffice to say, in relation to Silver Surfer, volume 3, hyperspace was a relative blip in SS's continuity.

    I was saying, by using "star spanning speed", Engleheart could suggest FTL speed without using hyperspace. After all, how do you reconcile hyperspace with, "I just busted through two walls of vibranium and snatched Nova from danger after BFR'ing myself into hyperspace...". Doesnt track.

    Hence, "star spanning speed".
    Last edited by Cronus; 07-16-2020 at 12:08 PM.
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  12. #27
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Also, there's the problem of FTL reaction speed and hyperspace, as Gruenwald wanted readers to understand.
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  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    These aren't really so much actual problems as you making them into problems. The feats noted are FTL performances, there's nothing in that comic calling them otherwise. They make the point that if Englehart cared about otherwise, he only did so sporadically at best.

    Anything else is making this harder than it has to be.

  14. #29
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    These aren't really so much actual problems as you making them into problems.
    No not really.

    I made the continuity note in post 16 because of this comment here:

    Yeah, but Defenders issue Runner was retconned by Englehart IMO (In Defenders issue Runner says he can't stop at all or he will die, that's not a case for Englehart's Runner). I'm not saying Runner isn't stupidly fast, just that save his Defenders appearance, he doesn't displays FTL speed anywhere else (Englehart didn't write a FTL reflexes Surfer IMO).
    It's not the first comment I've heard like that, and I've had this discussion with other folks that revolved around the same subject. Hence, I addressed it.


    The feats noted are FTL performances, there's nothing in that comic calling them otherwise.
    ...but factored against the back drop of....

    Silver Surfer vol. 3, 2.1 - near light speed.jpg

    I can see why folks might be confused. Hence, I clarified.

    They make the point that if Englehart cared about otherwise, he only did so sporadically at best.
    I understand that much, but not everyone else does.

    Anything else is making this harder than it has to be.
    As I said, when people make comments like they do, as noted above, then clarification is in order.
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  15. #30
    Extraordinary Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    the Runner is so fast that someone who benchmarks around Wally in speed could only "guh" at how fast the Runner is.

    So... Silver Age Barry/Runner tie-ish at the top, then Wally West, then Thawne, and I have no idea where to put the Racer really.
    Is Surfer really even in the same league as Wally? His best feats don't exactly come even remotely close to outrunning the big bang.
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