Replicate the feat

[Intothevoid]

[The Arbiter]

These are cool, but honestly I dont think we lend them much weight on Rumbles.

[Intothevoid]

These are cool, but honestly I dont think we lend them much weight on Rumbles.

Yea i noticed that, like alternate timelines count for main ones, but scripts sent to artists from which they draw pages are irrelevant, even when they only serve to reinforce what's already shown on the pages, it's all good anyway it's just my observation you can ignore it, the main point are the pages of the comic anyway that are posted above.

[Nik Hasta]

Yea i noticed that, like alternate timelines count for main ones, but scripts sent to artists from which they draw pages are irrelevant, even when they only serve to reinforce what's already shown on the pages, it's all good anyway it's just my observation you can ignore it, the main point are the pages of the comic anyway that are posted above.

To just step on this, I would view it that scripts don't have more weight than the finished comic. Art and visuals are an intrinsic part of the medium and to diminish that is to ignore the most unique aspects of it.

The only instance where it might be useful would be in ambiguous art or something.

[Intothevoid]

To just step on this, I would view it that scripts don't have more weight than the finished comic. Art and visuals are an intrinsic part of the medium and to diminish that is to ignore the most unique aspects of it.

The only instance where it might be useful would be in ambiguous art or something.

No comics take precedent after all i agree, this was just something that adds to the already finished comic, nothing that detracts from it or contradicts it but actually something that narrates exactly whats happening, how serious someone wants to take them is up to them, at the same time i personally do find it silly to be outright dismissed as a completely useless thing.

[Cronus]

No comics take precedent after all, this was just something that adds to the already finished comic, nothing that detracts from it or contradicts it, how serious someone wants to take them is up to them, at the same time i personally do find it silly to be outright dismissed as a completely useless thing.

Understood. But what is the acceptable means of "proof"...elsewhere, isn't the same....here. You and I have chatted before (Thor thread). Here, it's "high feats consistent with the character's presentation". Handbooks and writer drafts and what a writer said on social media, have no place here.

[Intothevoid]

Understood. But what is the acceptable means of "proof"...elsewhere, isn't the same....here. You and I have chatted before (Thor thread). Here, it's "high feats consistent with the character's presentation". Handbooks and writer drafts and what a writer said on social media, have no place here.

Yea i noticed that, anyway as i said those scripts can be ignored, the comic pages itself illustrate the point i was making.

[Cronus]

Yea i noticed that, anyway as i said those scripts can be ignored, the comic pages itself illustrate the point i was making.

Okie doke. Moving on.

Previously, you said this regarding the choke hold placed on Jane Thor by Gladiator:

You literally can, especially when the person is distracted and you grab them all of a sudden, you also ignore the force that comes with the grab, you can literally disable a person just by hitting them had in the throat and i am pretty sure Jane felt a lot of pressure as soon as Gladiator jumped at her throat with his hand, this doesn't exactly tell me who is stronger unless i see a prolonged struggle, he just caught her by surprise.

Then I said,

What about this? Was this prolonged struggle?

...regarding Hulk shrugging off Jane and Hercules.

You then responded:

I was talking about that specific instance between Jane and Kallark.

Obviously it doesn't have to be a prolonged struggle, characters could literally armwrestle and one of them could beat the other in an instant, the problem is the nature of the feat above.

The feat that you posted below also isn't a feat of just pure physical strength, Hulk just punched them away he didn't grapple with them, i think this feat would fit better your intentions

Am I misunderstanding? Did you change the metric when presented with a similar feat, yet judged differently?

Not to veer to much into thread derailing here, but I'd be interested to know your thoughts on Kallarks actual level of combat speed once they re-open the other thread.

[Intothevoid]

Okie doke. Moving on.

Previously, you said this regarding the choke hold placed on Jane Thor by Gladiator:

Yes when i was specifically talking about the Jane and Gladiator instance.

Then I said,


...regarding Hulk shrugging off Jane and Hercules.

You then responded:

Am I misunderstanding? Did you change the metric when presented with a similar feat, yet judged differently?

I was specifically referring to the Jane and Gladiator scene because it's a very unique scene, Gladiator hits her in the throat and grabs her this obviously takes the wind out of her as she immediately chokes and he teleports away with her, all of this happened in seconds and it's not good enough for me to judge it as him overpowering her when there are other distinctions involved, as i explained previously it's like punching someone in the stomach then immediately trying to wrestle them and throwing them to the ground, you could say you overpowered them but the part where you punched them in the stomach played a critical role in that so it wasn't just a contest of pure strength and skill. That's how i view the Gladiator and Jane instance.

Which is why i said in a pure armwrestle contest if one opponent overpowers another quickly that means they are that much stronger. It's not like if Superman grappled with Bane and instantly crushed his arms would i think "well they needed to grapple for longer before i can figure out whose stronger".

Not to veer to much into thread derailing here, but I'd be interested to know your thoughts on Kallarks actual level of combat speed once they re-open the other thread.

His actual combat speed is that of a bullet time, he isn't anywhere near FTL in combat or even hypersonic, he is way too inconsistent for that as it's not just a simple "PIS" argument, in case of Flash or Superman you can more easily argue PIS since they tend to hold back a lot and sometimes way too much but also are more consistent with their speed obviously, Gladiator plays a bad guy most of the time and i have seen him struggle with everyone from street tiers to bricks to characters like Thor for me to consider him that fast in combat at least, his travel speed as with most other cosmic fliers is impressive, the problem is rpeople often attribute his feats to alternate timelines of the character like the FF instance of that time he fought Thor before the Reigning storyline or when he punched Galactus in Dr Stranges book, etc.. Anyway this is all for another thread.

[Cronus]

Yes when i was specifically talking about the Jane and Gladiator instance.

I was specifically referring to the Jane and Gladiator scene because it's a very unique scene, Gladiator hits her in the throat and grabs her this obviously takes the wind out of her as she immediately chokes and he teleports away with her, all of this happened in seconds and it's good enough for me to judge it as him overpowering her when there are other distinctions involved, as i explained previously it's like punching someone in the stomach then immediately trying to wrestle them and throwing them to the ground, you could say you overpowered them but the part where you punched them in the stomach played a critical role in that so it wasn't just a contest of pure strength and skill. That's how i view the Gladiator and Jane instance.

Which is why i said in a pure armwrestle contest if one opponent overpowers another quickly that means they are that much stronger. It's not like if Superman grappled with Bane and instantly crushed his arms would i think "well they needed to grapple for longer before i can figure out whose stronger".

You left out pretty much the crux of my argument.

I'm saying if Immortal Hulk can be judged as well beyond Hercules and Jane Thor in strength based on a quick shrug, why would we judge Gladiator any differently when grabbing Jane Thor by the throat? At any rate...

His actual combat speed is bullet time,

Based on what exactly?

he isn't anywhere near FTL in combat,

Disagree. I'm still looking into the time dilation feat from FF, been a while since I read it. But Heimdall getting blitzed from a galaxy away, catching the sniper bullet and saving Vulcan, the fight with Hyperion in Quasar, all point to pretty close to light speed, if not outright FTL.

he is way too inconsitent for that as it's not just a simple "PIS" argument, in case of Flash or Superman you can more easily argue PIS since they tend to hold back a lot and sometimes way too much but also are more consistent with their speed,

Wally is on another level from Clark and speed, let's face it, it Wally's thing. It's his bread and butter is what I'm saying and you will see him use it more frequently than Clark. I would argue Gladiator is just as consistent as Superman regarding the use of speed in combat Pendaran already mentioned Gladiator's sparse appearances. I mean, you're comparing Gladiator's hundreds of appearances to Superman's thousands of appearances...hell I might even say Gladiator uses his speed on combat comparatively more than Superman who is notorious for PIS moments and NOT using his speed.

Gladiator plays a bad guy most of the time and i have seen him struggle with everyone from street tiers to bricks to characters like Thor for me to consider him that fast,

By this metric we would have to say, then that no one with super speed has an advantage over someone without super speed, based on how you're appraising things. And I've seen Superman (as previously mentioned) have just as many PIS moments and not using his speed when he could have.

people often attribute his feats to alternate timelines of the character like the FF instance of that time he fought Thor before the Reinging storyline or when he punched Galactus in Dr Strange book, etc.. Anyway this is all for another thread.

I'm mystified as to your appraisal of Gladiator's speed. He has plenty of combat feats at super speed that clearly shows it's a thing he would do. And just to note....again....the gauge on this forum here is "high feats consistent with the character's presentation".

[Intothevoid]

You left out pretty much the crux of my argument.

I'm saying if Immortal Hulk can be judged as well beyond Hercules and Jane Thor in strength based on a quick shrug, why would we judge Gladiator any differently when grabbing Jane Thor by the throat? At any rate...

Because the feats are completely different? Once again Gladiator grabbed Jane by the throat quite fast and forcefully enough to lift her off the ground, she started choking immediately. The instance you used that's equivalent to that is Hulk punching Jane and Thor away as being the same, even though i don't use this instance either as Hulk overpowering the 2 in physical strength, he just punched them. Later when they jump on him and try to hold him down and he shrugs them off can be viewed as him overpowering them.

Based on what exactly?

Based on feats like catching bullets and fighting it out more often than not with characters of similar level of speed.

Disagree. I'm still looking into the time dilation feat from FF, been a while since I read it. But Heimdall getting blitzed from a galaxy away, catching the sniper bullet and saving Vulcan, the fight with Hyperion in Quasar, all point to pretty close to light speed, if not outright FTL.

Heimdall getting blitzed from a galaxy away is more of a travel speed, especially if you look at his fight with Heimdal right after that, catching a sniper bullet is good but that's not anywhere near FTL, the fight with Hyperion is also good but comes into question how consistent it is with the rest because him reacting to him in nanoseconds isn't exactly something he ever repeated with anyone else. The problem is his other feats like almost stalemating Colossus going blow for blow, his fight with Rom, with Logan, Rulk, Hulk, BRB, Jane Foster, Thing and the rest of F4, Wonder Man, Eric Masterson, Annhilius, Pink form Jean, Canonball, GOTG, Gambit, Havok, black dwarf, Heimdall, Throgg, Iron-man, Champion, possessed Thor, a bunch of undead Asgardians, etc... Recently even Sunspot caught a spear thrown by Gladiator proceeded to mock him and tell him he is both faster and stronger than him and the 2 had a brief scuffle. There are too many fights where his speed is not shown and it's hard for me to swallow that it's PIS every single time.

Wally is on another level from Clark and speed, let's face it, it Wally's thing. It's his bread and butter is what I'm saying and you will see him use it more frequently than Clark. I would argue Gladiator is just as consistent as Superman regarding the use of speed in combat Pendaran already mentioned Gladiator's sparse appearances. I mean, you're comparing Gladiator's hundreds of appearances to Superman's thousands of appearances...hell I might even say Gladiator uses his speed on combat comparatively more than Superman who is notorious for PIS moments and NOT using his speed.

I am not saying he isn't. Definitely not when it comes to more impressive speed, in Rebirth alone Superman has more impressive speed feats than Kallark has in 40 or so years. Well yea when you tend to have too many appearances that can also backfire on you and work as a double edged sword, because you get put into too many books written by different writers who have different visions of a characters power, it's why Superman doesn't do that well in Rebirth outside his own series and the JL(when written by Snyder mostly).

By this metric we would have to say, then that no one with super speed has an advantage over someone without super speed, based on how you're appraising things. And I've seen Superman (as previously mentioned) have just as many PIS moments and not using his speed when he could have.

No, characters that have super speed do have an advantage, the problem is having people admit that the characters they like aren't as fast or as consistent as they think and that speed like any other attribute isn't something that character operates at 100% of the time, in fact Superman himself has stated that he needs to concentrate for it on top of him holding back way more than Gladiator and most DC characters in general being more impressive in the Marvel ones, in Marvel you don't have nearly as many characters with impressive speeds even among high-tiers as you do over at DC, it's why Supermans opponents often times have the speed to keep up with him.

I'm mystified as to your appraisal of Gladiator's speed. He has plenty of combat feats at super speed that clearly shows it's a thing he would do. And just to note....again....the metric on this forum here is "high feats consistent with the character's presentation".

I am not sure what's so mystical you yourself named like 3-4 feats of his one of which is from a different timeline Gladiator, another is him catching a sniper bullet which is definitely not FTL and one is him using travel speed which is impressive but not exactly combat speed especially when in that same issue he goes blow for blow with 2 characters that are far below FTL, the argument for PIS becomes weaker to me if the same writer supposedly gives someone this epic speed feat only to forget about it in the same issue, especially when that character isn't a morals on character. That's the thing i don't think some of the feats being presented are high feats consistent with the characters presentation.

[Cronus]

Because the feats are completely different? Once again Gladiator grabbed Jane by the throat quite fast and forcefully enough to lift her off the ground, she started choking immediately. The instance you used that's equivalent to that is Hulk punching Jane and Thor away as being the same, even though i don't use this instance either as Hulk overpowering the 2 in physical strength, he just punched them. Later when they jump on him and try to hold him down and he shrugs them off can be viewed as him overpowering them.

I'm not talking about Hulk punching anyone. I'm referring to the bolded, above. I don't see the why Hulk can be viewed as this uber powerful guy based on a shrug, but Gladiator grabbing Jane by the throat isn't viewed equally? While we're at it...Gladiator is viewed as a legit planet buster here. I happen to be on board with that.

Based on feats like catching bullets and fighting it out more often than not with characters of similar level of speed.

Okay so the feat with Vulcan? Had he perceived the bullet being shot, then...raced the bullet to the point of grabbing it right before it hit Vulcan in the face, I could see where you're coming from. But that ain't what happened. Dude reminisced about right, wrong and what not...and at the last instant before it hit the guy, he finally reacted. Waaay faster than just bullet timing.

Heimdall getting blitzed from a galaxy away is more of a travel speed, especially if you look at his fight with Heimdal right after that, catching a sniper bullet is good but that's not anywhere near FTL,

You're assuming Gladiator was just bullet timing in the Vulcan feat. I disagree. And you're leaving out the fact that the Heimdall gets pegged by Gladiator at that speed. Had Gladiator been incapable of doing anything but travelling at that speed, then he would've just zipped by the guy. So no, not really. The fact that he can perceive anything at that speed and hit it is proof of super reaction speed.

the fight with Hyperion is also good but comes into question how consistent it is with the rest because him reacting to him in nanoseconds isn't exactly something he ever repeated with anyone else.

The fight with Hyperion is more consistent with Gladiator dropping Heimdall than anything else.

The problem is his other feats like almost stalemating Colossus going blow for blow, his fight with Rom, with Logan, Rulk, Hulk, BRB, Jane Foster, Thing and the rest of F4, Wonder Man, Eric Masterson, Annhilius, Pink form Jean, Canonball, GOTG, Gambit, Havok, black dwarf, Heimdall, Throgg, Iron-man, Champion, possessed Thor, a bunch of undead Asgardians, etc... Recently even Sunspot caught a spear thrown by Gladiator proceeded to mock him and tell him he is both faster and stronger than him and the 2 had a brief scuffle. There are too many fights where his speed is not shown and it's hard for me to swallow that it's PIS every single time.

And as I said previously, there are just as many instances of Superman getting hit/tagged/punched...whatever by characters with no super speed whatsoever, yet you don't seem to have a problem with saying Clark has super speed. Simply put: every character with super speed has been hit by character's with not super speed. I mean, even someone like Wally West is diminished in speed by how you appraise someone's use of super speed.

Okay, so according to you, Gladiator is a bullet timer. Got it.

I am not saying he isn't. Definitely not when it comes to more impressive speed, in Rebirth alone Superman has more impressive speed feats than Kallark has in 40 or so years. Well yea when you tend to have too many appearances that can also backfire on you and work as a double edged sword, because you get put into too many books written by different writers who have different visions of a characters power, it's why Superman doesn't do that well in Rebirth outside his own series and the JL(when written by Snyder mostly).

Explain. How is Rebirth Clark's speed more impressive than Gladiator's? I had them pretty close in speed, but I'd like to know how Clark is superior?

No, characters that have super speed do have an advantage, the problem is having people admit that the characters they like aren't as fast or as consistent as they think and that speed like any other attribute isn't something that character operates at 100% of the time,

...Or, maybe how you arrive at the conclusion that a character has superior/better/more consistent reaction speed is different than what you might be used to? Like I say, the gauge here is "high feats consistent with the character's presentation". Also, I'm not a big fan of Gladiator. I'm a Thor/Silver Surfer guy. But I don't go around insisting Thor is on par with the Silver Surfer speed wise because he's fought him on numerous occasions. We factor out PIS moments here.

in fact Superman himself has stated that he needs to concentrate for it on top of him holding back way more than Gladiator and most DC characters in general being more impressive in the Marvel ones, in Marvel you don't have nearly as many characters with impressive speeds even among high-tiers as you do over at DC, it's why Supermans opponents often times have the speed to keep up with him.

I'm well aware of books that elaborate on why Clark doesn't use super speed in his books that often (his training with Mongul Jr. comes to mind), but that has no place here. We don't incorporate elements of the story as part of considering how one opponent does against another. Here. We assume blood lust unless otherwise elaborated. It's almost a fight between each character's set of powers as much as the characters themselves. I get some people don't like, but my question is why try to change it? The people who do use this metric here....like it.

I am not sure what's so mystical you yourself named like 3-4 feats of his one of which is from a different timeline Gladiator,

Pendaran and I don't agree on everything...I'm still working on re-reading those books he referenced. So, I haven't consigned the FF stuff yet.

another is him catching a sniper bullet which is definitely not FTL

...I might be mis-remembering, but I thought there were two instances of catching sniper bullets. I'll look. But I don't see the bullet catching of Vulcan as just a bullet timing feat. Gladiator waited until the last moment before snatching the bullet out of the air.

and one is him using travel speed which is impressive but not exactly combat speed especially when in that same issue he goes blow for blow with 2 characters that are far below FTL,

Dude, how many times has Wally West run circles around people in a pico second, then get tagged by someone without super speed in the same book? You're way of appraising super speed makes literally no sense whatsoever.

the argument for PIS becomes weaker to me if the same writer supposedly gives someone this epic speed feat only to forget about it in the same issue, especially when that character isn't a morals on character. That's the thing i don't think some of the feats being presented are high feats consistent with the characters presentation.

I view it differently, likely because we appraise things differently. Here. When a character with super speed has plenty of uses of super speed to his name, then conveniently "forgets" to use his speed against someone without super speed, that is evidence of story telling. Nothing else.

Edit, just looked at the feat of Gladiator dodging Galactus' "photons". Also, legit.

[Intothevoid]

I'm not talking about Hulk punching anyone. I'm referring to the bolded, above. I don't see the why Hulk can be viewed as this uber powerful guy based on a shrug, but Gladiator grabbing Jane by the throat isn't viewed equally? While we're at it...Gladiator is viewed as a legit planet buster here. I happen to be on board with that.

Except the first scan you posted was the one of Hulk punching Jane and Herc. Once again you are comparing apples and oranges, Gladiator grabbed Jane by the throat and teleported her away which doesn't mean he isn't an uber powerful guy or anything, it's just that it's not the same scene as what happened with Hulk, the Hulk scene also lasted longer and Hulk had to use pure physical strength to shrug the 2 of them and he did it just by flexing his muscles not punching or choking them first of hitting them in the stomach he just overpowerd their grip on him after they tried to hold him down for 2 pages. I noticed that it's weird because i haven't noticed it on any other forum, Gladiator destroying a dead world in 4 hits to me is as consistent as Grey Hulk one-shotting an asteroid twice the size of Earth. Especially considering a feat happened with a guest artist in a 8 page story, it's weird to me he is viewed as a legit planet buster but someone like WBH isn't, but that's neither here nor there.

Okay so the feat with Vulcan? Had he perceived the bullet being shot, then...raced the bullet to the point of grabbing it right before it hit Vulcan in the face, I could see where you're coming from. But that ain't what happened. Dude reminisced about right, wrong and what not...and at the last instant before it hit the guy, he finally reacted. Waaay faster than just bullet timing.

That's still bullet timing, he just timed it at point blank range, it's at the high end of bullet timers sure, but it's definitely not anywhere near FTL.

You're assuming Gladiator was just bullet timing in the Vulcan feat. I disagree. And you're leaving out the fact that the Heimdall gets pegged by Gladiator at that speed. Had Gladiator been incapable of doing anything but travelling at that speed, then he would've just zipped by the guy. So no, not really. The fact that he can perceive anything at that speed and hit it is proof of super reaction speed.

Why would he just zipped by the guy when Heimdall was standing in place? Thor for instance is a very slow guy in combat but has flown at 2-3 times the speed of light, characters perceive things around them when traveling fast even if they aren't nowhere near as fast in combat, it's an inconsistency in comics but it is what it is.

The fight with Hyperion is more consistent with Gladiator dropping Heimdall than anything else.

How does that relate to Gladiator dropping Heimdall? The fight Gladiator had with Heimdall does him more disservice than anything.

And as I said previously, there are just as many instances of Superman getting hit/tagged/punched...whatever by characters with no super speed whatsoever, yet you don't seem to have a problem with saying Clark has super speed. Simply put: every character with super speed has been hit by character's with not super speed. I mean, even someone like Wally West is diminished in speed by how you appraise someone's use of super speed.

And yet Superman has in-universe explanations like him holding back and statements like him needing to concentrate before he uses super speed, those are explanations for why he sometimes gets hit by slower opponents, Glaidator on the other hand is more often than not a bad guy or at least has way looser morals than Superman and there is no mention of him having to concentrate to use his speed. Every character has but that doesn't mean every character that has showcase super speed once or twice in several decades means they are a super speedster. The comics go out of their way at times to present guys like Flash or Clark as being speedsters, they don't do so with Gladiator.

Okay, so according to you, Gladiator is a bullet timer. Got it.

Yea a high end one.

Explain. How is Rebirth Clark's speed more impressive than Gladiator's? I had them pretty close in speed, but I'd like to know how Clark is superior?

Because he is more consistent? He has more feats of speed in Rebirth alone than Gladiator has in his whole existence? He holds back way more so it makes sense why he gets hit more often? He has an in-universe explanation stating he needs to concentrate to use speed, and if we look his pre-52 self he even has statements saying he limits his speed on Earth in fear of doing too much collateral damage.

...Or, maybe how you arrive at the conclusion that a character has superior/better/more consistent reaction speed is different than what you might be used to? Like I say, the gauge here is "high feats consistent with the character's presentation". Also, I'm not a big fan of Gladiator. I'm a Thor/Silver Surfer guy. But I don't go around insisting Thor is on par with the Silver Surfer speed wise because he's fought him on numerous occasions. We factor out PIS moments here.

Are people aware that Gladiators own creator didn't view Gladiator as that high? In one of his first battles he double KO'd himself with Colossus where the 2 were presented as near equal? Is that the kind of representation that matters more or a guest star writer, writing a short 8 page story of him destroying a dead world? Yea because unlike Thor, Surfer has several feats of using super speed in combat, while Thor has a bunch of feats struggling to tag street tiers and even characters making fun of his lack of speed.

I'm well aware of books that elaborate on why Clark doesn't use super speed in his books that often (his training with Mongul Jr. comes to mind), but that has no place here. We don't incorporate elements of the story as part of considering how one opponent does against another. Here. We assume blood lust unless otherwise elaborated. It's almost a fight between each character's set of powers as much as the characters themselves. I get some people don't like, but my question is why try to change it? The people who do use this metric here....like it.

How does that have no place here? The comic explains to you why Supermans jobs in his speed often? I know we don't incorporate that in a VS battle because for the purposes of the VS battle such story elements don't apply and Clark uses his speed to it's fullest, what i am talking about is the difference between Clark and Kallark, as in why Clark jobs a lot in his speed and why it makes sense for him in his stories and why it doesn't for Gladiator.

Pendaran and I don't agree on everything...I'm still working on re-reading those books he referenced. So, I haven't consigned the FF stuff yet.

Ok.

...I might be mis-remembering, but I thought there were two instances of catching sniper bullets. I'll look. But I don't see the bullet catching of Vulcan as just a bullet timing feat. Gladiator waited until the last moment before snatching the bullet out of the air.

Characters have caught or blocked bullets at point blank, that's still not anywhere near FTL, i mean Gladiator failed to block a blast from Cyclops even though he got a heads up.

Dude, how many times has Wally West run circles around people in a pico second, then get tagged by someone without super speed in the same book? You're way of appraising super speed makes literally no sense whatsoever.

How many times has Wally West used super speed compared to Gladiator? How many times has the book/story gone out of it's way to present Wally as a speedster even the fastest or one of the fastest beings around? How many times has that happened for Gladiator? It makes absolute sense if you use common sense and look for consistency greater than a character used actual super speed 2-3 times in over 4 decades 900+ appearances.

I view it differently, likely because we appraise things differently. Here. When a character with super speed has plenty of uses of super speed to his name, then conveniently "forgets" to use his speed against someone without super speed, that is evidence of story telling. Nothing else.

That plenty of use of super speed is like 2-3 uses in 4+ decades?

Edit, just looked at the feat of Gladiator dodging Galactus' "photons". Also, legit.

Ok, can you explain to me why that story had characters that have been dead for decades appear again out of nowhere with no explanation, why certain characters had uniforms they haven't worn in decades, why Mephisto who appeared in multiple books before and after this story and was shown being locked in Las Vegas was suddenly with no explanation shown not to be locked in Vegas? There is absolutely nothing suspicious there? I know you were suspicious a lot about WBH and busting a planet because there were wishes involved but that skepticism seems to go out the window here. Also what did that feat do for Gladiator anyway other then say he can outrace a blast from Galactus after he was already hit by the blast twice with the second time incinerating him?

[Nik Hasta]

Not touching the rest of this debate but just wanted to flag something on this point;

Ok, can you explain to me why that story had characters that have been dead for decades appear again out of nowhere with no explanation, why certain characters had uniforms they haven't worn in decades, why Mephisto who appeared in multiple books before and after this story and was shown being locked in Las Vegas was suddenly with no explanation shown not to be locked in Vegas? There is absolutely nothing suspicious there? I know you were suspicious a lot about WBH and busting a planet because there were wishes involved but that skepticism seems to go out the window here.

Anachronisms or continuity flubs in the story that surrounds the feat is in no way equivalent to a character having an implied in-text powerup. One of those really changes our perception and weighting of the feat, the other much less so.

Like, if Gladiator in this story was like "Oh, Gladiator has been hit with super radiation that made him maybe ambiguously more powerful," and then he did a high end feat then said feat would be subject to the same kind of skepticism as the Hulk wishes thing.

However, if it's just, "hey a bunch of elements to this story seem at odds with the larger direction of continuity," while the story is, to the best of our knowledge, still considered broadly canonical - then the feat would stand, insofar as it would need to be considered against Gladiator's larger suite of feats.

[Intothevoid]

Not touching the rest of this debate but just wanted to flag something on this point;



Anachronisms or continuity flubs in the story that surrounds the feat is in no way equivalent to a character having an implied in-text powerup. One of those really changes our perception and weighting of the feat, the other much less so.

Like, if Gladiator in this story was like "Oh, Gladiator has been hit with super radiation that made him maybe ambiguously more powerful," and then he did a high end feat then said feat would be subject to the same kind of skepticism as the Hulk wishes thing.

However, if it's just, "hey a bunch of elements to this story seem at odds with the larger direction of continuity," while the story is, to the best of our knowledge, still considered broadly canonical - then the feat would stand, insofar as it would need to be considered against Gladiator's larger suite of feats.

Except for the fact that there is no implied in text power for WBH busting planet, literally nothing even implies it people just think the magic must have been involved in it rather than accept that a certain character that grows in power has a form that can bust a planet, despite this not even being his most powerful form as recently implied in Immortal Hulk. The fact that the Dr Strange story has lots of actual shenanigans going in it, where literal reality warps at times, magic is infused with science, certain characters are literally changed completely, etc... outside of just things contradicting literal canon is at the very least enough to raise some skepticism on that part, especially since Gladiators appearance in the story goes against his larger suit of feats like punching a massively amped Galactus(who at that point even Living Tribunal and Eternity feared) so hard he shakes the bones of everyone in the whole universe and then literally invents abilities he NEVER had like accelerating molecules to burn someones skin or turning atmosphere to plasma, etc... Not to mention that Strange quite literally undoes everything at the end and makes it appear like it never happened. People seem to be very selective as to what to be skeptical about and what not and it seems to boil down more to the characters themselves, rather than feats, which is what confuses me here.