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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitParallel View Post
    And you know what’s funny, since we know Arno is 5 years older than Tony. What happened to Howard’s decoy plan and why did it take them 5 years to find a replacement.

    I guess genius Howard was waiting on Tony cus he had a vision that Tony would grow up and look just like him /s
    Given that Tony's father was a Howard Hughes type, if they wanted to give him a secret older brother, I really don't know why they needed to do it in such a convoluted way

  2. #182
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    For me, it's not just that it doesn't add anything, it's that it needlessly complicates his backstory.

    'Tony Stark was secret adopted so that his adopted parents didn't have to surrender their paralyzed, also super genius son to a Recorder who would then plug him into a rogue space monster'.

    Did I miss anything?

    Not even Cable's backstory is that complicated. And like you said, it adds nothing
    Well it did add to his backstory but it was so convoluted as to be ridiculous.

  3. #183
    Mighty Member marvelprince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    For me, it's not just that it doesn't add anything, it's that it needlessly complicates his backstory.

    'Tony Stark was secret adopted so that his adopted parents didn't have to surrender their paralyzed, also super genius son to a Recorder who would then plug him into a rogue space monster'.

    Did I miss anything?

    Not even Cable's backstory is that complicated. And like you said, it adds nothing
    Lets not get carried away here.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by marvelprince View Post
    Lets not get carried away here.
    I'm 100 percent serious.

    At least Cable can get some mileage out of his backstory, and it's easier to simplify.

    "Taken to the future, raised a warrior and returned to prevent his future."

    It's got a little pathos, at least

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maria Stark View Post
    Bendis' retcon on Stark's parents, is extremely racist and offensive against the half Latin people.

    Tony Stark's parents have always been a Latin woman and a man of probable Jewish origin who helped defeat the Nazis, which is not just a movie thing, it's true in the comics as well.

    But, thanks to this racist retcon, Tony Stark is not the oldest and most prominent Marvel's mixed race super hero anymore, because now he is the son of an white woman with an actual Nazi! Why did Marvel decided to cancel Tony Stark's Latin heritage, replacing it with the most racist they could think of? This is totally unacceptable!

    Am I the only person who is against this atrocious retcon? Tell me that I'm not alone in this.
    What are we referring to when we say Latin people? are we talking latins as in the italic tribes or are we talking latin as in hispanic. I mean if you ask a lot of latin people what their race is a lot say white.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  6. #186
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I'm 100 percent serious.

    At least Cable can get some mileage out of his backstory, and it's easier to simplify.

    "Taken to the future, raised a warrior and returned to prevent his future."

    It's got a little pathos, at least
    Milage is key.

    If you can at least generate some stories out of a retcon, it can be worth it no matter how little it might make sense.

    But if a retcon is complete ignored afterwards then you have to wonder what the point was.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Milage is key.

    If you can at least generate some stories out of a retcon, it can be worth it no matter how little it might make sense.

    But if a retcon is complete ignored afterwards then you have to wonder what the point was.
    You can get stories outta anything.

    What should matter is 'Does it compliment the character'?

    To which the adoption angle most certainly does not

  8. #188
    Mighty Member marvelprince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I'm 100 percent serious.

    At least Cable can get some mileage out of his backstory, and it's easier to simplify.

    "Taken to the future, raised a warrior and returned to prevent his future."

    It's got a little pathos, at least
    Tony's adopted is by no means more complicated than Nate's origin. Just no. We can debate on the pathos of each sure, but in terms of convoluted "you're adopted" isn't that hard to wrap ones head around.

  9. #189
    Mighty Member marvelprince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Milage is key.

    If you can at least generate some stories out of a retcon, it can be worth it no matter how little it might make sense.

    But if a retcon is complete ignored afterwards then you have to wonder what the point was.
    With that logic the adoption angle was worthwhile cause every writer after has touched on and expanded on it in some way.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by marvelprince View Post
    Tony's adopted is by no means more complicated than Nate's origin. Just no. We can debate on the pathos of each sure, but in terms of convoluted "you're adopted" isn't that hard to wrap ones head around.
    The 'whys and hows' are far more complicated, yes, and far harder to boil down. And they don't work with his character genre

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    Let's break down the arguments here

    (1) Tony Stark's biological parents were originally Howard and Maria Stark.
    (2) Maria's maiden name was Carbonell
    (3) Carbonell is a Spanish name
    (4) Tony Stark's parentage was retconned to Jude LNU and Amanda Amrstrong

    Conclusions:
    (5) Tony Stark is half-latino from his mother's side.
    (6) Tony Stark was retconned into no longer being half-Latino.
    (7) The retcon was due to Marvel seeing Tony's parentage as a stain on a flagship character
    (8) The retcon is the most racist retcon in Marvel history

    (3) has been debunked to hell and back as a Catalan name. While names often shift languages, they are not indicators of ethnicity or race. The name Adam can be used in Great Britain, France, Russia, Poland, Czechia, and many more I'm leaving out. Maria is even less of an indicator since you can trace it back as far back as to the New Testament as the Koine Greek name of the Virgin Mary. The whole thing is dubious at best since we don't have any other information. Therefore, (5) and (6) are dubious at best.

    By extension, (7) is also highly dubious as this is a slippery slope. (8) would also fall into the umbrella of slippery slope. You're going to need to do way more to prove this.

    The idea that this is a racist retcon hinges on the assumptions about a name being concrete proof of ethnicity. It renders the conclusions dubious at best.

    (3) was not debunkedl, simply because Carbonell is not a name. It is, a surname. Surnames are, indicators of ethnicity or race. The character's name is Maria. Her surname is Carbonell.

    In addition, Catalonia, although an autonomous territory, is part of Spain. It is not like, for example, Monaco, which is a completely independent country within French territory. Catalonia has a separatist movement. How can a people want to separate themselves from a country they are not a part of? When Catalans voted in 2017 a referendum declaring them independent, that referendum was declared illegal by the Spanish government and the main Catalan political leaders were arrested for sedition and rebellion. How could the government of Spain do this, in a territory over which they have no jurisdiction? The answer to these two questions is the same. Catalonia is part of Spain and is subject to the laws of that country.

    Even if we consider purely, the ethnic aspect, as I noted earlier, from the point of view of white people born in the United States of America, any person born or descended from those born in the Iberian peninsula is a latino. No matter if you are ethnically Spanish or if you have Spanish as your national language.

    Take my case for example, I'm Brazilian and here in Brazil, we don't speak Spanish but Portuguese. That's because Brazil was colonized by Portugal and not by Spain. But still, I was considered a latina in the years I lived in the United States. Thus, from the point of view of the North Americans, even if Catalonia was a country totally independent from Spain, it is located, as well as Portugal, in the Iberian peninsula, making them then, Latinos as well.

    Strangely, Italians are not labeled in this way, even though the term “latino” itself, originates from the Latin language and culture, which in turn, originated in the city of Rome, which is, since 1871, the capital of Italy. Go figure.

    By the way, your breakdown of my points is a very good one. And, I'm not being sarcastic in saying that. It is, indeed, an excellent summary of the problem I have, with the subject at hand. Even if we fundamentally disagree on our points of view, it does not mean that we cannot discuss them in a didactic and civilized way, which is what I believe we are doing here.

    And, even if everything I described above doesn't convince you, and we end up just having to agree to disagree, then, so be it. It’s okay by me.

  12. #192
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    Thought this thread was gonna be about Falcon being a pimp lol.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maria Stark View Post
    (3) was not debunkedl, simply because Carbonell is not a name. It is, a surname. Surnames are, indicators of ethnicity or race. The character's name is Maria. Her surname is Carbonell.

    In addition, Catalonia, although an autonomous territory, is part of Spain. It is not like, for example, Monaco, which is a completely independent country within French territory. Catalonia has a separatist movement. How can a people want to separate themselves from a country they are not a part of? When Catalans voted in 2017 a referendum declaring them independent, that referendum was declared illegal by the Spanish government and the main Catalan political leaders were arrested for sedition and rebellion. How could the government of Spain do this, in a territory over which they have no jurisdiction? The answer to these two questions is the same. Catalonia is part of Spain and is subject to the laws of that country.

    Even if we consider purely, the ethnic aspect, as I noted earlier, from the point of view of white people born in the United States of America, any person born or descended from those born in the Iberian peninsula is a latino. No matter if you are ethnically Spanish or if you have Spanish as your national language.

    Take my case for example, I'm Brazilian and here in Brazil, we don't speak Spanish but Portuguese. That's because Brazil was colonized by Portugal and not by Spain. But still, I was considered a latina in the years I lived in the United States. Thus, from the point of view of the North Americans, even if Catalonia was a country totally independent from Spain, it is located, as well as Portugal, in the Iberian peninsula, making them then, Latinos as well.

    Strangely, Italians are not labeled in this way, even though the term “latino” itself, originates from the Latin language and culture, which in turn, originated in the city of Rome, which is, since 1871, the capital of Italy. Go figure.

    By the way, your breakdown of my points is a very good one. And, I'm not being sarcastic in saying that. It is, indeed, an excellent summary of the problem I have, with the subject at hand. Even if we fundamentally disagree on our points of view, it does not mean that we cannot discuss them in a didactic and civilized way, which is what I believe we are doing here.

    And, even if everything I described above doesn't convince you, and we end up just having to agree to disagree, then, so be it. It’s okay by me.
    Carbonell doesn't me she started out with that as her maiden name or her mother's maiden name. It could be a name change. She could have had a first husband. She could have just liked the name.

    Also surnames are not always indicators of race. It can be just a legal chosen name or a kept name from a previous marriage or what have you.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  14. #194
    Lazy Struggler BitParallel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Given that Tony's father was a Howard Hughes type, if they wanted to give him a secret older brother, I really don't know why they needed to do it in such a convoluted way
    Exactly. Give him a half brother but I hate the „long lost sibling“ trope so idk

    Quote Originally Posted by marvelprince View Post
    Tony's adopted is by no means more complicated than Nate's origin. Just no. We can debate on the pathos of each sure, but in terms of convoluted "you're adopted" isn't that hard to wrap ones head around.
    This is not true!! It’s not just „you were adopted“. When people find out Tony Stark is adopted and ask „how, when and why“ u just can’t explain it and when you do;- it makes no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Carbonell doesn't me she started out with that as her maiden name or her mother's maiden name. It could be a name change. She could have had a first husband. She could have just liked the name.

    Also surnames are not always indicators of race. It can be just a legal chosen name or a kept name from a previous marriage or what have you.
    I mean you’re right but these are exceptions. I don’t think Howard would’ve allowed Maria to keep her ex’s last name. I do think Carbonell is her maiden name but yes it does not indicate her ethnicity.
    Yikes, my grammar has gone to shit. Rip

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maria Stark View Post
    (3) was not debunkedl, simply because Carbonell is not a name. It is, a surname. Surnames are, indicators of ethnicity or race. The character's name is Maria. Her surname is Carbonell.
    Your argument hinges completely on the assumption that a surname does not change hands between races and ethnic groups the same way given names have. They certainly do. Take the name Abraham as an example. Putting aside the given name status, it exists as a surname in all of Western Europe and even India. This is true in Kerala where St. Thomas, according to Church tradition, brought Christianity to India. You would be surprised at the amount of Indians with Abraham as a surname.

    If they did not change ethnic hands, then this conversation wouldn't be happening.

    I ask you this. Is Maria Carbonell Stark not a Filipino? After all, thousands of them bear the surname Carbonell thanks to Spanish colonization. How can you prove to me who has decided a priori that she must be Filipino because she bears that surname.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maria Stark View Post

    Even if we consider purely, the ethnic aspect, as I noted earlier, from the point of view of white people born in the United States of America, any person born or descended from those born in the Iberian peninsula is a latino. No matter if you are ethnically Spanish or if you have Spanish as your national language.

    Take my case for example, I'm Brazilian and here in Brazil, we don't speak Spanish but Portuguese. That's because Brazil was colonized by Portugal and not by Spain. But still, I was considered a latina in the years I lived in the United States. Thus, from the point of view of the North Americans, even if Catalonia was a country totally independent from Spain, it is located, as well as Portugal, in the Iberian peninsula, making them then, Latinos as well.

    Strangely, Italians are not labeled in this way, even though the term “latino” itself, originates from the Latin language and culture, which in turn, originated in the city of Rome, which is, since 1871, the capital of Italy. Go figure.

    The reason why so many Americans believe that Spanish and Portuguese = hispanic and/or latino is a matter of geography.

    Americans are exposed more to Latin America than they are to Spain. The Spanish taught in our classrooms is Latin Spanish, mostly derived from Mexican Spanish because even then there are small variances in accents and words. The Spanish politics that come up in the insane ramblings of our politicians deal with Latin America. Our history books are wrought with the Mexican-American War and the Panama Canal. Same thing with Portugal. Most Portuguese people Americans deal with are speaking Brazilian Portuguese rather than the European Portuguese. Our politics deal with Brazil more than Portugal. If you asked Americans to name a Portuguese speaking politician, you will probably expect Jair Bolsonaro rather than Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa.

    An untrained ear cannot exactly determine accents well. If I had played two recordings of Taiwanese Mandarin and Mainland Mandarin, I doubt you can tell the difference between them and assume both are from Mainland despite sounding different.

    It would be inaccurate to call a Spaniard anything other than white, but it happens. It's why French and Italian people are not called latinos despite speaking romance languages. You don't hear many French speaking people in the USA outside of expats from Quebec or Italian speakers outside of small places in the USA.
    Last edited by U.N. Owen; 08-03-2020 at 06:44 AM.

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