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  1. #196
    Mighty Member chamber-music's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marvelprince View Post
    Lets not get carried away here.
    Teen Cable was the confusing cherry on top of the convoluted Cable Summers sandwich.
    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    "Carbonell", as far as I can see from a brief look on the web, is a surname that's been kicking around the British Isles in one form or another since 1066. Ancestry.co.uk has a John Carbonell, born 1731 in Westminster, London, for example, and there are several others.
    Yep.

    Not everyone in Britain is a 100% Anglo-Saxon or Celtic. Plenty of British people have Continental European names because they have some foreign ancestry.

    Soccer player Jay Rodriquez or actor Alfred Molina or Wrestler Layla El for example.

  2. #197
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chamber-music View Post
    Teen Cable was the confusing cherry on top of the convoluted Cable Summers sandwich.

    Yep.

    Not everyone in Britain is a 100% Anglo-Saxon or Celtic. Plenty of British people have Continental European names because they have some foreign ancestry.

    Soccer player Jay Rodriquez or actor Alfred Molina or Wrestler Layla El for example.
    Those are relatively recent immigrations I think; the name "Carbonell" will have come over from France with the Norman conquest in 1066. Despite keeping the name England, the Angles and Saxon kingdoms were overrun by the Viking invasion (though Alfred was able to stem the tide eventually), and later William the Conqueror won the country for the Normans (who were originally a Gallicised north German tribe iirc) at the Battle of Hastings. We've lost a lot of fights over the years!

  3. #198
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Carbonell doesn't me she started out with that as her maiden name or her mother's maiden name. It could be a name change. She could have had a first husband. She could have just liked the name.

    Also surnames are not always indicators of race. It can be just a legal chosen name or a kept name from a previous marriage or what have you.
    And also I keep pointing about that the Terry Kavanaugh story is the first time we see her maiden name given on her gravestone. And that name is Collins. Carbonell is the retcon and an unneeded one. It was of little consequence anyway.

    Here is a page showing a flashback from Iron Man #288. Maria Stark does not appear to be of any particular ethnicity.




    And I hope I don't need to post that gravestone panel again. but is shows that the original reveal of Maria last name is Collins since most marriages of that combine two family names used the wife's birth name as the middle name. Ergo Maria Collins Stark means her maiden name is Collins. That should end the argument right there. This whole thread is a mountain out of a molehill IMO.

  4. #199
    Mighty Member marvelprince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    The 'whys and hows' are far more complicated, yes, and far harder to boil down. And they don't work with his character genre
    His character genre? I don't know that I agree with that. We've seen all this heroes exist in every possible trope, interacting with all sorts of out there concepts. Seems arbitrary to say no this crosses the line in a multiversal, Galactus roaming MU.

    Quote Originally Posted by BitParallel View Post
    This is not true!! Itís not just Ąyou were adoptedď. When people find out Tony Stark is adopted and ask Ąhow, when and whyď u just canít explain it and when you do;- it makes no sense.
    Through a comic book adoption agency, when he was a baby, to hide the real Stark baby. I'm honestly having a hard time understanding what's so confusing to get with this. If you don't like it fine. Sure some of the details aren't consistent due to different writers changing different things but the core concept is pretty easy to understand imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    Thought this thread was gonna be about Falcon being a pimp lol.
    That's why I clicked lol.

  5. #200
    Lazy Struggler BitParallel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marvelprince View Post
    Through a comic book adoption agency, when he was a baby, to hide the real Stark baby. I'm honestly having a hard time understanding what's so confusing to get with this. If you don't like it fine. Sure some of the details aren't consistent due to different writers changing different things but the core concept is pretty easy to understand imo.
    ... yea ... no, this bootleg explanation wonít cut it letís be real now. Try getting into details and thatís when you realise itís super confusing and unnecessary. I mean, I stopped reading iron man comics after fraction and when I returned I was mindblown and when I tried explaining to my friends they were as confused. It is complicating excluding all the inconsistencies.
    Yikes, my grammar has gone to shit. Rip

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    Your argument hinges completely on the assumption that a surname does not change hands between races and ethnic groups the same way given names have. They certainly do. Take the name Abraham as an example. Putting aside the given name status, it exists as a surname in all of Western Europe and even India. This is true in Kerala where St. Thomas, according to Church tradition, brought Christianity to India. You would be surprised at the amount of Indians with Abraham as a surname.

    If they did not change ethnic hands, then this conversation wouldn't be happening.

    I ask you this. Is Maria Carbonell Stark not a Filipino? After all, thousands of them bear the surname Carbonell thanks to Spanish colonization. How can you prove to me who has decided a priori that she must be Filipino because she bears that surname.

    Oh, now I understand where the root of our disagreement is! It is a cultural problem.

    In countries colonized by Spanish or Portuguese, the natives only had their first names changed when they were baptized in the Christian faith. their surnames were not changed, since they didnít have them, and identified their family origin through patronymics. Only women were given a surname, when they officially married white colonists. This is because miscegenation between whites and natives was a political tactic, adopted by the colonizers, who realized that superior firepower and ruthlessness in combat only served them to a certain extent.

    Because, contrary to what happened in North America, there was no drastic reduction in the native population, due to contamination by diseases against which the natives did not have a natural immunity. This has happened on a few occasions, especially in the southern regions, but the number of natives was simply too big, for them to be defeated or converted by force.

    Therefore, the Portuguese and Spanish crowns came to the conclusion that the best thing to do, would be to convince the leaders of the peoples that they colonized across the world, while they were still amazed at the military superiority of the Europeans, that the only way to survive, would be to unite through blood with the winning side.

    In other words, in countries colonized by people from the Iberian peninsula, a native could only have a Christian surname through family union. Therefore, if a person has Carbonell as a surname and was not born in Spain, or in Catalonia as some prefer, it is because that person has Iberian DNA. Hence, yes, Carbonell definitely indicates Mariaís ethnic origin.

    I didnít take into account in my argument, the fact that miscegenation was not encouraged, but was avoided by British colonists, and the natives were given names of British origin, in the way you described.

    Now, about Maria being of Filipino origin, it can even be argued in favor of this, that Howard Stark gave her maiden name to an island in the Pacific, because the Philippines are located in that ocean. But, no. Joe Queseda, who is of Cuban origin, gave Maria the surname Carbonell. So, the most likely hypothesis, is that Quesada took that surname from his own community of origin.



    Quote Originally Posted by U.N. Owen View Post
    The reason why so many Americans believe that Spanish and Portuguese = hispanic and/or latino is a matter of geography.

    Americans are exposed more to Latin America than they are to Spain. The Spanish taught in our classrooms is Latin Spanish, mostly derived from Mexican Spanish because even then there are small variances in accents and words. The Spanish politics that come up in the insane ramblings of our politicians deal with Latin America. Our history books are wrought with the Mexican-American War and the Panama Canal. Same thing with Portugal. Most Portuguese people Americans deal with are speaking Brazilian Portuguese rather than the European Portuguese. Our politics deal with Brazil more than Portugal. If you asked Americans to name a Portuguese speaking politician, you will probably expect Jair Bolsonaro rather than Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa.

    An untrained ear cannot exactly determine accents well. If I had played two recordings of Taiwanese Mandarin and Mainland Mandarin, I doubt you can tell the difference between them and assume both are from Mainland despite sounding different.

    It would be inaccurate to call a Spaniard anything other than white, but it happens. It's why French and Italian people are not called latinos despite speaking romance languages. You don't hear many French speaking people in the USA outside of expats from Quebec or Italian speakers outside of small places in the USA.
    No doubt about that! On this, we fully agree.

  7. #202
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Here's a question for you all.

    is the issues with Tony's mother more or less racist than retconning Blade into having a white father?

  8. #203
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
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    The Blade thing was just awkward. I mean, just why?

  9. #204
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Here's a question for you all.

    is the issues with Tony's mother more or less racist than retconning Blade into having a white father?
    ...That happened?

  10. #205
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    I mean, before that reveal we never saw Blade’s father.

  11. #206
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    I mean the thing that bugs me when Marvel writers play god is they stop caring about heritage. Like Gambit is my favorite character and heís Cajun but you could definitely decide to just change him for the sake of the story. Make him a African American man to fit into New Orleans. I think when the writers show they donít care about a characters history itís a sign we have to stop caring about that writer

  12. #207
    IRON MAN Tony Stark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    ...That happened?
    I was going to ask the same thing?!
    " This is why you're the head of S.H.I.E.L.D, Stark. Because you're stronger than anyone. It's not the armor....and you know it. Your here because impossible things happen, and when they do, They call on you to deal with them. You see the angles, Tony. You always have. You see the possible solutions to things that shouldn't be happening." CAROL DANVERS

  13. #208
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
    I was going to ask the same thing?!
    Yeah, it happened.

    Blade's reaction was pretty much like yours. "That makes no sense, I'm not half-white."
    As far as I know it hasn't been retconned away yet.

    This is Blade's dad.

    He's white a Latverian and a vampire.

  14. #209
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Yeah, it happened.

    Blade's reaction was pretty much like yours. "That makes no sense, I'm not half-white."
    As far as I know it hasn't been retconned away yet.

    This is Blade's dad.

    He's white a Latverian and a vampire.
    ...Yeah, I can see why no one is in a hurry to bring this up again.

  15. #210
    Astonishing Member pageturner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Here's a question for you all.

    is the issues with Tony's mother more or less racist than retconning Blade into having a white father?
    Was his father ever shown before that or were people just assuming? I honestly dont remember.

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