The most racist retcon in all of Marvel Comics history.

[Maria Stark]

Yes, I can vouch for that. Although many times people think my handle here is referring to the band. I used to because I liked the T.H.U.N.D.E.R Agents when I was young and pictured the character Iron Maiden as possible ally of Doom's in a crossover.









I really don't think her accusation getting treated differently is unfounded anyway. But if you come in with a thread that is even slightly controversial then expect an argument about your views. For example, when you say Maria Stark has always been a Latina chances are you haven't read the original Silver Age stuff. Even thought Kirby always visualized Ben Grimm as Jewish, it was never mentioned.

Okay, is it possible that my reaction regarding the initial responses I got on this tread, was exaggerated and had nothing to do with sexism? Yes, it is possible. But, I 've been talked down in a dismissive way many times by men before, to recognize when that happens. So, I'm sure that was one of those cases.

And, about Snap Wilson, I actually read the classic stuff and I may actually be remembering it wrong. As I recall, the first time that the Falcon's origin was shown in flashback, was the Snap Wilson version. Later, J. M. DeMatteis tried to explain that this was a brief phase in Sam Wilson's life, caused by a mental breakdown and finally, Ed Brubaker just retconed it all definitively. But, as I mentioned in another answer, if I'm wrong, so I stand corrected. If I haven't mentioned it so far, it wasn't out of arrogance, but just so the tread didn't get off-topic.

[Iron Maiden]

Okay, is it possible that my reaction regarding the initial responses I got on this tread, was exaggerated and had nothing to do with sexism? Yes, it is possible. But, I 've been talked down in a dismissive way many times by men before, to recognize when that happens. So, I'm sure that was one of those cases.

And, about Snap Wilson, I actually read the classic stuff and I may actually be remembering it wrong. As I recall, the first time that the Falcon's origin was shown in flashback, was the Snap Wilson version. Later, J. M. DeMatteis tried to explain that this was a brief phase in Sam Wilson's life, caused by a mental breakdown and finally, Ed Brubaker just retconed it all definitively. But, as I mentioned in another answer, if I'm wrong, so I stand corrected. If I haven't mentioned it so far, it wasn't out of arrogance, but just so the tread didn't get off-topic.

As you admitted yourself, the title you chose for yourself probably went a long way toward setting the tone of this thread. It's a bit over the top and reads like like a cheap tabloid version of the title for an article as opposed to say the title of an op end piece in the New Yorker. Maria Stark is such a small blip on the radar it seems a bit extreme to get that worked up about it IMO. Now this is coming from someone who really dislikes when colorists give Doom blue eyes instead of brown. But I don't make a whole thread about it.

[DrNewGod]

I wonder if racism can be cited without establishing knowledge and intent?

I'm not certain at what point the name Maria Stark (or her nee name, Carbonell) entered cannon. I am sure that it didn't show up in the first several appearances of the Iron Man character, when the bulk of Stark's persona and environment were being established.

Regardless of the origin of the name Carbonell, or when it entered cannon, I can see why a reader of Latino roots might take more interest in Iron Man, and dislike a development that "unmakes" a part of the character that is important to them. I can also see that a writer should be sensitive to the implications of "de-ethicizing" a character, even if that wasn't what the writer set out to do. That assumes, however, that a writer is aware of the detail of the character's history in question.

One of the things that sometimes makes me discontent with today's writers at The Big Two is that they seem less interested in telling stories about the established characters they are assigned to write than in writing the stories they want to tell, whether the way they portray the character fits or not. From the late-1960s at least through the late-1990s, writers and editors seemed to impose some discipline on character consistency and backstory that's less common today. So, I guess the question I'm asking is do we have any idea whether the writer in question was even aware of Maria Stark's maiden name?

If so, and the writer had it in mind to rip the Latino out of Iron Man, then the OP definitely has a point. If so, and the writer didn't think about what the name Carbonell means to whom, that's maybe negligent, but I can't see it being more than that. If not, I don't think the accusation fits.

[Will Evans]

I’m pretty sure by then, that Tony Stark was Robert Downey Jr in their eyes, so changing that possible ethnic side didn’t matter.

[Frobisher]

Man, can’t believe they whitewashed a white European character into a white European.

[U.N. Owen]

b) I can tell you from experience, that it doesn't matter if your hair is natural blond and your skin is whiter than marble, in the United States, the moment you open your mouth and start speaking English with a Latin American accent, you immediately stop being white and become a Latino.

One, this is absolutely not how it is handled in America. I know we're not the most logical people, but this would mean that actors who speak Spanish with a Argentinian or Colombian accent would be immediately considered Latino. Also by this logic, you can lose your latino status by merely changing accents which is rather easy to do.

Two, officially, no. White and Latino are labeled as two different things on official documents. White is a race. Hispanic/Latino is an ethnicity. It's been criticized over and over again by many institutions, but that is how it is on every standardized test I had to take and give.

In addition, I also learned that for Americans, there are different types of “white European”. It is only in fact white, who is from northern or eastern Europe. Now, if you come from a European Latin country, you are a Class-A Latino and if you come from a Latin American country, you are a Class-B Latino. It is not a generalization on my part, and it does not necessarily mean that you will automatically be treated badly in the U.S. because of this, but the reality is that you will never be considered white.

You have it wrong. Historically, you were considered a white "desirable" if you were from Northern or Western Europe. If you were from the East or South, you were an anarchist who would burn down the American way of life, a catholic trying to turn America into the next Papal States, or a lazy degenerate. Hatred was more on sectarian lines. When the age of science and scientific racism came along, we had a split between Southern and Eastern Europeans. We had pseudo-science like head measuring and intelligence tests by the likes of Carl Brigham, the man who created CollegeBoard, which "proved" that Eastern and Southern Europeans were from an "inferior racial stock."

[Ultimate Captain America]

I usually see characters as characters, not as walking ethnic figures. When I think of Tony Stark, I think in things such as science genius, has his own corporation and loads of money, invented the Iron Man armor in a cave with a box of scraps, snarker supreme, etc. I don't think about his ethnic ancestry. I would object if they suddenly make him a black guy, or cast a black actor to play him in films, but only because it would be a big departure from his standard visual aspect.

[skyvolt2000]

I wonder if racism can be cited without establishing knowledge and intent?

I'm not certain at what point the name Maria Stark (or her nee name, Carbonell) entered cannon. I am sure that it didn't show up in the first several appearances of the Iron Man character, when the bulk of Stark's persona and environment were being established.

Regardless of the origin of the name Carbonell, or when it entered cannon, I can see why a reader of Latino roots might take more interest in Iron Man, and dislike a development that "unmakes" a part of the character that is important to them. I can also see that a writer should be sensitive to the implications of "de-ethicizing" a character, even if that wasn't what the writer set out to do. That assumes, however, that a writer is aware of the detail of the character's history in question.

One of the things that sometimes makes me discontent with today's writers at The Big Two is that they seem less interested in telling stories about the established characters they are assigned to write than in writing the stories they want to tell, whether the way they portray the character fits or not. From the late-1960s at least through the late-1990s, writers and editors seemed to impose some discipline on character consistency and backstory that's less common today. So, I guess the question I'm asking is do we have any idea whether the writer in question was even aware of Maria Stark's maiden name?

Battlestar was originally called Bucky in Cap America. A person wrote in to Marvel to explain why that was offensive and they changed it. It was even included in the story about why he changed his name.

Hotspot at DC Comics was known under a different name that had to be changed because it was offensive when you translate it. So he got his new name Hotspot.

If so, and the writer had it in mind to rip the Latino out of Iron Man, then the OP definitely has a point. If so, and the writer didn't think about what the name Carbonell means to whom, that's maybe negligent, but I can't see it being more than that. If not, I don't think the accusation fits.

Some times folks will do that to hide their racial background.

Look at Charlie Sheen. Emilio Estevez is his brother. Martin Sheen-their Dad changed his name to ensure he got movie roles.

Terry Kavanagh introduced Maria Stark's last name in 1995.

Also Ultimate Marvel gave her the last name Cerrera.

[Iron Maiden]

I can't recall Tony's parents being a big deal in the Silver Age at least. It seems like most heroes didn't have parents to deal with. Spider-Man had the elderly Aunt May, Reed's were seldom mentioned at all nor Ben's. Sue and Johnny's mother died in a car accident and their father was in jail but would soon be killed by Skrulls when he did get out. We do start to get a few flashbacks of Tony's parents in Iron Man 104 and 105 in 1978 but his mother doesn't appear to have any distinguishing characteristics that would indicate a particular culture or nationality. As I said, she was such seldom seen character for decades and no writer assigned any particularly stand out trait other than being the unhappy wife of the tyrannical Howard Stark I suppose. Her maiden name, judging by this headstone, was Collins. So this "retcon" becomes less and less "racist".

[Will Evans]

Collins is Maria’s middle name. Not her surname.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Battlestar was originally called Bucky in Cap America. A person wrote in to Marvel to explain why that was offensive and they changed it. It was even included in the story about why he changed his name.

Sigh, those were the days.

Marvel: We screwed up. Sorry.

And then that was that.

[Iron Maiden]

Collins is Maria’s middle name. Not her surname.

I've sited an on panel examples of Collins being the surname. When was the other name added on because it had to be after this.

[ed2962]

Yes, the Snap Wilson retcon was horrible. Period, point blank. But...

Devil's advocate: The retcon was concocted at a time when the glorification of pimps, gangsters, thugs and other social miscreants in predominantly minority communities was becoming vogue. Whether we're talking fictional characters like Superfly, or real life individuals like Iceberg Slim, Nicky Barnes and Bumpy Johnson, we can't deny their impact on both the community and pop culture. Hell, even Malcolm "Detroit Red" Little started off as a two-bit hustler and pimp before he found Allah and his divine calling as Malcolm X.

This trend would arc well into the modern era with the emergence of gangsters and drug dealers who later became well-known rappers, or strippers who pushed through the muck to become some of the biggest celebrities in the world. We have exalted them to these heights. You can't get too upset with Marvel writers for mistaking these characters as the type that most Americans, black and otherwise, see as paradigmatic. To this day there are people out there still basing their come-up off of questionable means that garner them "street cred." As perverse as it may be, through that transmogrification of values they achieve respect, love and acceptance within the community, but more importantly, outside of it.

It's possible that's all the Snap Wilson persona was intended to be: an attempt to make Sam complex and controversial, so as to appeal to readers during the height of the Blaxploitation era. They didn't want Sam to be perceived as a "cornball brother," so they gambled on making Sam less like "They Call Me Mr. Tibbs" and more like "Black Caesar" or "The Mack" ... and failed mightily in the attempt.

Yes, they were wrong for even trying. It's too bad Marvel didn't have someone like James Baldwin as a resource back then. I'm sure Mr. Baldwin would have set them straight and advised against it. Hell, any black man in a leadership position on their staff would have steered them clear of the Snap Wilson nonsense.

What's interesting is that Marvel never really played up the Snap Wilson thing back in the day. It was introduced and then dropped almost immediately. I think it was DeMattheis who tried to make it work in continuity seeing as it wasn't made clear if it was all Red Skull mind control or not. It's been more later writers ( and fans) who kept the whole "Did you know Falcon was a pimp?" thing alive.

[ed2962]

I can't tell if this thread is serious or not

I think the OP is low key trolling, but it is an interesting topic.


And I too inferred that Maria was Italian American back in the day...

[Harpsikord]

Maria Stark was not a Latina woman. There's an important distinction between someone being Latinx - which is a race - and of someone being of Hispanic origin, meaning that they have heritage belonging to a Spanish speaking country. You can be both, one, or neither; if Maria Stark was anything then she was a white Hispanic woman. I can definitely give you the idea that maybe Howard Stark was a Jewish man which is another nest of things entirely, and taking that away does admittedly potentially take something away from Tony, but it doesn't have to. Tony, from what I understand, has never been written as an overly religious character, whether that Religion is Judaism or something else entirely, and even if he was the change of his biological parents doesn't change the way that he personally, religiously identifies.

As someone who is ignorant of it, and has largely not followed Falcon up until he was introduced in the MCU, what's the deal with the Snap Wilson retcon?