The most racist retcon in all of Marvel Comics history.

[JudicatorPrime]

I did not know that. I always just presumed it was done to make him more 'street', like every other black character at the time.

For what it's worth, a person can be "street" without necessarily being perceived as "the criminal element." Being "hip to the game" didn't used to connote that you were a wanton felon preying on your own people. You could thrive in the streets, yet not let the streets live in you. Somehow during the 70s and 80s the terms became interchangeable. I was plenty street in my youth, but I wasn't a criminal or a thug -- as a few of the young ladies back in the day would tell me whenever I'd ask them out on dates. I was nice, had a little edge and swag, but I wasn't "thug enough" for them. (I'm sure I'm not the only one who has heard that said about them.)

[Will Evans]

To go back to the original poster. There may be evidence that we’re all actually right.

Maria may be of Occitan descent.

[ed2962]

Maria Stark was not a Latina woman. There's an important distinction between someone being Latinx - which is a race - and of someone being of Hispanic origin, meaning that they have heritage belonging to a Spanish speaking country. You can be both, one, or neither; if Maria Stark was anything then she was a white Hispanic woman. I can definitely give you the idea that maybe Howard Stark was a Jewish man which is another nest of things entirely, and taking that away does admittedly potentially take something away from Tony, but it doesn't have to. Tony, from what I understand, has never been written as an overly religious character, whether that Religion is Judaism or something else entirely, and even if he was the change of his biological parents doesn't change the way that he personally, religiously identifies.

As someone who is ignorant of it, and has largely not followed Falcon up until he was introduced in the MCU, what's the deal with the Snap Wilson retcon?

Basically, Sam was introduced by Stan Lee and Gene Colon as part of a longer story involving the Red Skull and the Cosmic Cube. It's not important to get into the particular details of the plot, but let's just say Sam Wilson was portrayed as a clean cut positive role model. Years later Steve Englehart did a another Red Skull story that suggested that Sam's first origin was actually part of a long con by the Skull. Sam was actually a wanted street hood named Snap who had been hypnotized by the Skull. Englehart left the title and didn't finish his story. A couple issues later Jack Kirby took over and didn't deal with any of the previous stuff.

What's probably most striking is that Snap was drawn in a very stereotypical 70's "pimp" look. Even though it was never stated on the page, many people inferred that's what he was in addition to running numbers and working for the Mob.

[JudicatorPrime]

What's interesting is that Marvel never really played up the Snap Wilson thing back in the day. It was introduced and then dropped almost immediately. I think it was DeMattheis who tried to make it work in continuity seeing as it wasn't made clear if it was all Red Skull mind control or not. It's been more later writers ( and fans) who kept the whole "Did you know Falcon was a pimp?" thing alive.

I thought the best way to redeem an awful concept like Snap Wilson would be for the Red Skull to reveal in his monologue that he had used the Cosmic Cube to crudely warp reality. It wouldn't be the first time that a villain, and a racist one at that, took a person's history and distorted it in order to establish and validate their own false claim of supremacy and absolute superiority.

Indeed, I wrote a Falcon fan fiction based on that very premise. In it Sam was actually the Egyptian god Horus. As a favor to his ally and patron, Set, the Red Skull used the Cosmic Cube to strip Horus/Sam of his godhood, along with his memory of his true station, and trapped it in a rare species of immortal raptor (Redwing) presumably forever. But Shmidt didn't stop there. To further debase this once powerful and noble god, Shmidt turned Horus/Sam into an abusive purveyor of all manner of illicit activities, including prostituting women and children. Horus/Sam would even stoop to selling himself, if the price was right. By engaging in these horrendous acts Horus/Sam empowered Set, much in the same way that evil ultimately empowers Mephisto. And of course the deeper into corruption Horus/Sam delved, the harder it was for him to find his way back to the Light.

My story turns with Sam regaining his divine purpose, if not all of his divine powers, by merging with Redwing and coaxing the Dark Matter energy lattices which bind a Cosmic Cube into siphoning off the analogous dark energies that enfettered his soul. Marvel could have arranged for a less complex resolution with Sam somehow shattering the Cosmic Cube and Red Skull's warped reality along with it. Bye bye, Snap Wilson.

[Harpsikord]

Basically, Sam was introduced by Stan Lee and Gene Colon as part of a longer story involving the Red Skull and the Cosmic Cube. It's not important to get into the particular details of the plot, but let's just say Sam Wilson was portrayed as a clean cut positive role model. Years later Steve Englehart did a another Red Skull story that suggested that Sam's first origin was actually part of a long con by the Skull. Sam was actually a wanted street hood named Snap who had been hypnotized by the Skull. Englehart left the title and didn't finish his story. A couple issues later Jack Kirby took over and didn't deal with any of the previous stuff.

What's probably most striking is that Snap was drawn in a very stereotypical 70's "pimp" look. Even though it was never stated on the page, many people inferred that's what he was in addition to running numbers and working for the Mob.

... Oooh, big yikes. Good to know and thank you very much for telling me!

[Drops Of Venus]

I can tell you from experience, that it doesn't matter if your hair is natural blond and your skin is whiter than marble, in the United States, the moment you open your mouth and start speaking English with a Latin American accent, you immediately stop being white and become a Latino. In addition, I also learned that for Americans, there are different types of “white European”. It is only in fact white, who is from northern or eastern Europe. Now, if you come from a European Latin country, you are a Class-A Latino and if you come from a Latin American country, you are a Class-B Latino. It is not a generalization on my part, and it does not necessarily mean that you will automatically be treated badly in the U.S. because of this, but the reality is that you will never be considered white.

Even if it's not a generalization on your part, I hope you realize just how freaking racist this entire mindset you described is. People can't be white based on how they speak or where they're born??? Sounds like some white purity bullshit. How about we let latin@ people, many of which self-identify as white, get to decide this instead of letting racist american stereotypes dictate how other people's race/ethnicity/nationality works? It's just weird to me that you created this thread under the notion that you're concerned about racism, but you are using a very racist measurement of what it means to be white to make a point.

[Agent Z]

What's interesting is that Marvel never really played up the Snap Wilson thing back in the day. It was introduced and then dropped almost immediately. I think it was DeMattheis who tried to make it work in continuity seeing as it wasn't made clear if it was all Red Skull mind control or not. It's been more later writers ( and fans) who kept the whole "Did you know Falcon was a pimp?" thing alive.

Iirc, there is a scene in Priest's Black Panther run where Everett Ross mentions that Sam would have never gotten a job as a social worker if he was a pimp and a drug dealer.

[Agent Z]

I thought the best way to redeem an awful concept like Snap Wilson would be for the Red Skull to reveal in his monologue that he had used the Cosmic Cube to crudely warp reality. It wouldn't be the first time that a villain, and a racist one at that, took a person's history and distorted it in order to establish and validate their own false claim of supremacy and absolute superiority.

That's exactly what happened in Rick Remender's run when he undid the Snap Wilson retcon.

[Ravin' Ray]

Now this is coming from someone who really dislikes when colorists give Doom blue eyes instead of brown. But I don't make a whole thread about it.

Don't give anyone ideas!

[kevlon]

Allow me to clarify these points then:

b) I can tell you from experience, that it doesn't matter if your hair is natural blond and your skin is whiter than marble, in the United States, the moment you open your mouth and start speaking English with a Latin American accent, you immediately stop being white and become a Latino. In addition, I also learned that for Americans, there are different types of “white European”. It is only in fact white, who is from northern or eastern Europe. Now, if you come from a European Latin country, you are a Class-A Latino and if you come from a Latin American country, you are a Class-B Latino. It is not a generalization on my part, and it does not necessarily mean that you will automatically be treated badly in the U.S. because of this, but the reality is that you will never be considered white.

The world doesn't start and end with the United States. Just because they think certain people are "A" or "B" or whatever doesn't mean the rest of the world think like that.

In Europe, the Spanish are white.

[Mike_Murdock]

Allow me to clarify these points then:

a) Yes, I know that Kieron Gillen was responsible for the retcon. But, as Gillen handled this plot point, everything could be treated as a lie and things could easily go back to what they were before or completely ignored. It was Bendis, who made the decision to make this the core of his Iron Man stories and chose to completely reverse the character's heritage: A (possibly) Jewish father who worked for S.H.I.E.L.D., was replaced by a Nazi who works for Hydra, and a Latin women were replaced by a white woman. And although it may be disagreed, I firmly believe that this was intentional, because it is an inversion that is too good to be just a coincidence.

b) I can tell you from experience, that it doesn't matter if your hair is natural blond and your skin is whiter than marble, in the United States, the moment you open your mouth and start speaking English with a Latin American accent, you immediately stop being white and become a Latino. In addition, I also learned that for Americans, there are different types of “white European”. It is only in fact white, who is from northern or eastern Europe. Now, if you come from a European Latin country, you are a Class-A Latino and if you come from a Latin American country, you are a Class-B Latino. It is not a generalization on my part, and it does not necessarily mean that you will automatically be treated badly in the U.S. because of this, but the reality is that you will never be considered white.

c) The surname Stark, may be of Scottish, or Jewish-German origin. The Agent Carter TV show, chose the last option for the MCU Howard Stark and I believe that this is also valid for the original comics version (at least in Bendis' mind), and I already explained why I believe that in answer a).

d) If in fact, I am wrong about this, I have no problem being corrected. If the title can be edited to stop causing confusion, then I will do it. If not, the only way is to clarify the issue, when someone else gets confused. If I tried not to refer to that point so far, it was not out of arrogance on my part, but just so that this tread don't get too off topic.

It's still a dumb reason to criticize Bendis for picking up a recent thread rather than retconning it away almost immediately after it happened.

You're focusing a lot on last names. Carbonell, even as a Spanish name, doesn't necessarily make her a person of color. She seems to be a white European. Your logic for Howard Stark is even more speculative. Would you be happy if Amanda Armstrong's mother was Hispanic? Also, we know nothing about his biological father's ancestry.

[The Cool Thatguy]

For what it's worth, a person can be "street" without necessarily being perceived as "the criminal element." Being "hip to the game" didn't used to connote that you were a wanton felon preying on your own people. You could thrive in the streets, yet not let the streets live in you. Somehow during the 70s and 80s the terms became interchangeable. I was plenty street in my youth, but I wasn't a criminal or a thug -- as a few of the young ladies back in the day would tell me whenever I'd ask them out on dates. I was nice, had a little edge and swag, but I wasn't "thug enough" for them. (I'm sure I'm not the only one who has heard that said about them.)

Well, yeah duh. I'm not defending Snap, just explaining why I thought the persona was created

[BitParallel]

This thread is funny and sad at the same time. Y’all know marvel don’t give two **** about women and won’t explore Tonys maternal family. Like, a lot of men writers just don't like including mothers.

We know very little of Maria, I can’t even think of any significant appearances she had unless it’s her giving birth or receiving a baby as a gift.

She played a big role in shaping Tonys character but nope ... instead marvel gave us tons of Howard’s abusive moments and a story that literally no iron man fan wanted/enjoyed.

We will never find her true ethnicity. Heck! Marvel can barely agree on her hair color xD

[Frontier]

This thread is funny and sad at the same time. Y’all know marvel don’t give two **** about women and won’t explore Tonys maternal family. Like, a lot of men writers just don't like including mothers.

We know very little of Maria, I can’t even think of any significant appearances she had unless it’s her giving birth or receiving a baby as a gift.

She played a big role in shaping Tonys character but nope ... instead marvel gave us tons of Howard’s abusive moments and a story that literally no iron man fan wanted/enjoyed.

We will never find her true ethnicity. Heck! Marvel can barely agree on her hair color xD

Fraction had a backup story in his Invincible Iron Man run that showed how she and Howard first met.

[Triniking1234]

Account created two days ago just to start a race-baiting thread. Unbelievable.

These are comic books we're talking about. If there's evidence that Maria was a Latina and Howard was Jewish, post the pages.