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  1. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    and Doomsday Clock was Superman focused.
    It was just as Batman-focused as it was Superman. Superman may have been the basis for the plot point, but Batman was in just as many, if not more, issues than Superman was and did the bulk of the legwork in solving the central mystery of the series.
    Last Read: Oldboy vol. 5

    Monthly Pull List: Action Comics, Batman/Superman, Daredevil, The Flash, Legion of Superheroes, Runaways, Shazam!, Strange Adventures, Superman, Young Justice

  2. #197
    Mighty Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Yes the first Metal event was built as Batman focused but Wonder Woman and Hawk Girl ended up being the heroes while Batman was trapped and practically broken. This new Dark Metal event is Wonder Woman focused and Doomsday Clock was Superman focused. So despite what some may think the DC Universe does not revolve around Batman. As far as other characters, this myth persists that they are not utilized but DC gives them books and very few people buy them. New titles are always announced and they are met with derision and scorn. How many posters say "no one asked for this book" or "hard pass", DC tries something new and people/readers immediately criticize, be it the cast, the premise, the creative team or whatever else. It costs money to put out a book, and then its not supported so DC loses money on the book and its swiftly canceled. Then people start to complain despite not supporting the book at all and look to blame Batman because his fans support his books; it's crazy. Batman is the easy target, he is DC's biggest most popular character so he gets all the hate and blame for other characters not getting any shine. And that's fine, his fans will continue to support him and his books and therefore DC will continue to put out more Batman content because they see he sells. And threads like this one will continue to be created because some will always be upset that Batman is front and center, even though they do nothing or little to change that reality; like support other titles when DC puts them out. But they won't so nothing will change and then they will complain, rinse and repeat.
    Calling Death Metal Wonder Woman-focused is a stretch. It's a Bat-event with her having a slightly bigger role here than in the first, other than that it's driven by story elements and characters created for Batman.

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Calling Death Metal Wonder Woman-focused is a stretch. It's a Bat-event with her having a slightly bigger role here than in the first, other than that it's driven by story elements and characters created for Batman.
    According to Scott Synder in virtually every interview regarding Death Metal he clearly states that Wonder Woman is the lead character and the focus of the book, the embodiment of hope in fighting against TBWL. Yes there are story elements and characters created in relation to Batman but it's the Dark Multiverse as a whole and Batman and others are a part of it. Diana is positioned as the lead with Bruce and Clark have large roles also.

  4. #199
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    ďMore Supermanís thingĒ thatís the problem with your argument. In fiction, you can have anything and anyone do anything. Something may be fits the mold of one character better than another but that doesnít mean other characters canít also dabble with that same thing. You have your grounded Batman stories and you have your crazy sci-fi stuff with him too.

  5. #200
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    According to Scott Synder in virtually every interview regarding Death Metal he clearly states that Wonder Woman is the lead character and the focus of the book, the embodiment of hope in fighting against TBWL. Yes there are story elements and characters created in relation to Batman but it's the Dark Multiverse as a whole and Batman and others are a part of it. Diana is positioned as the lead with Bruce and Clark have large roles also.
    Snyder can say that all he wants. It's not a Wonder Woman-lead event if her world has nothing to do with it.

  6. #201
    Mighty Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    According to Scott Synder in virtually every interview regarding Death Metal he clearly states that Wonder Woman is the lead character and the focus of the book, the embodiment of hope in fighting against TBWL. Yes there are story elements and characters created in relation to Batman but it's the Dark Multiverse as a whole and Batman and others are a part of it. Diana is positioned as the lead with Bruce and Clark have large roles also.
    I'm going by what's the on the page and at the moment, she's largely along for the ride as the most significant thing she's done was undone the next issue. Calling Death Metal a Wonder Woman event is like calling Blackest Night a Flash event. And the whole Dark Multiverse concept itself has been 90% Batman and 10% everyone else (I don't even think there was a Dark Multiverse Wonder Woman issue from that Tales of... series).

    If this where WW-focused, it'd be centered around something created specifically for her or from her history like Blackest Night, Flashpoint, or Dark Knights Metal did for the characters they were inargubably centered around.

  7. #202
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I'm going by what's the on the page and at the moment, she's largely along for the ride as the most significant thing she's done was undone the next issue. Calling Death Metal a Wonder Woman event is like calling Blackest Night a Flash event. And the whole Dark Multiverse concept itself has been 90% Batman and 10% everyone else (I don't even think there was a Dark Multiverse Wonder Woman issue from that Tales of... series).

    If this where WW-focused, it'd be centered around something created specifically for her or from her history like Blackest Night, Flashpoint, or Dark Knights Metal did for the characters they were inargubably centered around.
    Yeah, I'd be more forgiving if we got more Dark Multiverse takes on Wonder Woman or something in the tie-in, but it's still all Batmen. You mean to tell me there are no Dark Multiverse versions of the other characters at DC? It's just Bruce? That's piss poor.

    Diana is a POV character who has currently accomplished nothing save helping the villain get a power up. We're only two issues in, granted, but every tie in, solicit and leak dictates that the ears on this book are only going to get pointier... But damn if Capullo won't make it look great.

  8. #203
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Yeah, I'd be more forgiving if we got more Dark Multiverse takes on Wonder Woman or something in the tie-in, but it's still all Batmen. You mean to tell me there are no Dark Multiverse versions of the other characters at DC? It's just Bruce? That's piss poor.
    I think it was fine in Metal because people were annoyed at AU's where Superman went evil and Batman was turned into a moral paragon so here's all these AU Batman's who went evil, but they've kind of run it into the ground.

  9. #204
    Mighty Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Yeah, I'd be more forgiving if we got more Dark Multiverse takes on Wonder Woman or something in the tie-in, but it's still all Batmen. You mean to tell me there are no Dark Multiverse versions of the other characters at DC? It's just Bruce? That's piss poor.

    Diana is a POV character who has currently accomplished nothing save helping the villain get a power up. We're only two issues in, granted, but every tie in, solicit and leak dictates that the ears on this book are only going to get pointier... But damn if Capullo won't make it look great.
    Yeah, Evil Wonder Woman is a concept that's been run into the ground for me but another derivative of that would make this closer a story for her than what's going on right now, which honestly it's BWL's story if it's anyones right now.

    Said this elsewhere but only feel she's the "lead" here is because the movie was supposed to be out when this first dropped and this is just more of DC's usual lip service to the character.

  10. #205
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Snyder can say that all he wants. It's not a Wonder Woman-lead event if her world has nothing to do with it.
    It was just as Batman-focused as it was Superman. Superman may have been the basis for the plot point, but Batman was in just as many, if not more, issues than Superman was and did the bulk of the legwork in solving the central mystery of the series.
    I notice some of my posts getting pruned here. buuut. . . Its a tough thing to fight against a fire sale. When everyone is saying different things even on the same side of the argument.

    I find doomsday clock to be a literal Superman-led book in which it becomes cannon that the DC universe actually DOES revolve around Superman. . . though this poster points out that Batman was involved and doing the bulk of the Legwork.

    Meanwhile... if its NOT a WW led event but her "world" has nothing to do with it.

    I agree with Siegeperilous02 here...
    Doomsday Clock didn't seem a batman led event to me, but a superman led one. Death Metal doesn't seem a WW led event for me.

    Something else I've been thinking about is how it GOOD that batman is a center point for DC. . . because normies tend to love this guy.

    Because they tend to love him... he serves as a springboard for the Dc universes OTHER characters. I don't feel like we could have just replaced B:TAS
    with anybody else back in the 90's or the old Adam west show and gotten the same results.

    Dc's efforts to promote other characters get often overlooked or ignored because they aren't the perfect thing that the fans want "At the moment, exactly as we say".

    Black lighting has a book and people complain because "Batman's name is on the cover", but he does HAVE a book. Meanwhile, conveniently ignoring that Mr.terrific has HAD a book "The Terrifics" for a couple years now, clearly his, both in name and substance.

    Batman is a success, he's the same as spidey,wolvie,punisher and others were in the 90's but him in a tittle and not only batfans but normies might pick it up.

    Introducing them other characters.
    The fact that the bat franchise makes very successful spin-offs likely helps too
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  11. #206

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    But they still took the chance with them. That is the point. They didn't let the fear that "oh, these might not do that well" stop them from actually releasing those titles. Marvel has proven in recent years that it's willing to give its lower-tier characters the chance to attract an audience and, yeah, that's partly because their profile's been heightened by the MCU and it might not always sell well, but in the long run it works out better for them. It makes their universe more diverse and therefore, more interesting.

    And why are we assuming then that a Black Lightning title wouldn't be more like Guardians of the Galaxy than Killmonger/Shuri?
    But is that smart business? Giving franchises that don't sell chance after chance seems like Marvel's way of patting it's self on the back. "Unlike DC we give unpopular characters multiple chances at their own titles!" This isn't a charity, if you run a restaurant and your vegan dishes don't sell as well as the non vegan one's maybe you should have less vegan meals on the menu.

    Btw I'm not saying you shouldn't give less popular characters chances but after awhile if you see they sell less than more popular characters maybe it's smarter to spotlight them in other ways, like team books, if they aren't strong enough draws on their own.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    But is that smart business? Giving franchises that don't sell chance after chance seems like Marvel's way of patting it's self on the back. "Unlike DC we give unpopular characters multiple chances at their own titles!" This isn't a charity, if you run a restaurant and your vegan dishes don't sell as well as the non vegan one's maybe you should have less vegan meals on the menu.

    Btw I'm not saying you shouldn't give less popular characters chances but after awhile if you see they sell less than more popular characters maybe it's smarter to spotlight them in other ways, like team books, if they aren't strong enough draws on their own.
    Sometimes low selling books require more of a push to become popular, that's why reboots are necessary. If the problem is the creative team or a certain rendition of the character that goes way when they're replaced by something more suitable to the public but DC needs to publish the new version first to test the waters. For instance, Hawkeye is a character that popular in team books but does poorly in solo stories until Matt Fraction wrote a series changing him into Hawkguy.

  13. #208
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Batman is a lot easier to get into as a character is a perfect reason why he's getting so much focus all the time
    His history is so much more streamlined compared to WW or Superman or hell any hero on JL he is essentially the gateway character for DC
    There was a time where this was Superman but that passed
    WW could have been this also but her history is a mess and there is no unifying vision that makes her a gateway character

    A lot of people take this for granted since they are hardcore DC fans but if it takes multiple books to understand what is happening in any comic book at any time they are probably not being marketed at the most possible eyeballs like you see with Batman

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Batman is a lot easier to get into as a character is a perfect reason why he's getting so much focus all the time
    His history is so much more streamlined compared to WW or Superman or hell any hero on JL he is essentially the gateway character for DC
    There was a time where this was Superman but that passed
    WW could have been this also but her history is a mess and there is no unifying vision that makes her a gateway character

    A lot of people take this for granted since they are hardcore DC fans but if it takes multiple books to understand what is happening in any comic book at any time they are probably not being marketed at the most possible eyeballs like you see with Batman
    I mean it helps that Batman has an easy bullet point history of Year One, Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Grayson’s run as Robin, introduction of Ra’s, Grayson leaves for the Teen Titans and becomes Nightwing, Jason Todd and Death in the Family, Killing Joke, Tim Drake becomes Robin, Knightfall, No Man’s Land, Hush, Jason returning, then Morrison’s run introducing Damian having Bruce go away awhile for Dick to be Batman, returning, and literally everything post 52 is after all that. It’s a very defined history.

    Meanwhile the Superman line changes its mind all the time on whether the Kent’s are alive or if he was Superboy and hung out with the Legion, the current Superman is the post Crisis one etc. He’s been married to Lois more than once I think. The only hard fact with Superman anymore is that he fought Doomsday and died once. Like that’s the lynchpin fact.

    Batman has well established milestones that are popular enough that they aren’t going to be wiped out by a reboot because they know that things like Knightfall, Death in the Family, Killing Joke, Dick being Nightwing, even Damien now etc are actually useable and popular beyond hardcore fans.

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    But is that smart business? Giving franchises that don't sell chance after chance seems like Marvel's way of patting it's self on the back. "Unlike DC we give unpopular characters multiple chances at their own titles!" This isn't a charity, if you run a restaurant and your vegan dishes don't sell as well as the non vegan one's maybe you should have less vegan meals on the menu.

    Btw I'm not saying you shouldn't give less popular characters chances but after awhile if you see they sell less than more popular characters maybe it's smarter to spotlight them in other ways, like team books, if they aren't strong enough draws on their own.
    Uh, well Marvel is consistently the #1 publisher in the market in terms of sales so...I think they know what they're doing.

    And, I've brought this up before, but since we're on the restaurant metaphor, a restaurant that sells 90% steak is more likely to go out of business than the restaurant down the street that sells steak, fish, chicken, pasta, salad, etc. That’s because, if god forbid the consumer base grows tired of steak, the first restaurant has nothing to really fall back on to offer its customers and they’ll eventually leave. Its called diversification and is a well-worn principle of business.

    If Marvel wanted, they could rest on their laurels and sell 50 Spider-Man titles. After all, titles like Black Panther and even Fantastic Four, Iron Man, and Thor are not usually big sellers for them. However, I'm pretty sure they know that they capture a more diverse and larger audience by having a diverse slate of titles about different characters.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 08-06-2020 at 06:04 AM.

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