Why having the universe revolve around Batman is a problem.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

What happened to the multiverse or Supergirl didn't stick, what happened to Barry Allen stuck for a long time. It's natural to see it as the most relevant part when it's the part DC tried to hardest to respect in the decades afterwards. Likewise Bruce Wayne not being around for a while is a much bigger deal then Darkseid not being around for a while, Darkseid isn't around that often anyway. Knowing what happened to Batman is the big reason to read Final Crisis.



Actually compare No Man's Land to the likes of Darkest Night and Zero Hour for a moment.

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Saying it just effects the bat line books is like saying it just effects the northern hemisphere. Bat line by the new 52 includes the Teen Titans, Suicide Squad and Bird of Prey, along with a host of ongoings for solo characters and several different ongoings for Batman himself Green Lantern is one or two books at this point. Even at Green Lantern height it was never as big as the bat line, not even close. Same for the super line. Do Green Lantern events, the book about the force of intergalactic spacecops generally have a wider scope then the events about a caped detective in a city, yes. So what.

Also again, Joker's Last Laugh did happen. It is not a superman story.

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Seriously? When Blackest Night came out it effected the Batman line both with its own Batman tie in and was the lead into Morrison’s middle chapters of his B&R run. Had an Adventure Comics tie in that was effectively one of the last Superboy Prime stories before the reboot and really was the last Earth Prime story for years. Had a Booster Gold tie in which was effectively the last time Booster Gold and Ted Kord shared a comic. Had a Teen Titans comic which was effectively playing off of years of Deathstroke Family history going back to the first few issues of the Wolfman/Pérez era Titans. Had another Titans cross over which was effectively the final time Donna Troy had to deal with the loss of her family and Beast Boy’s final meeting with Terra. Had James Robinson resurrect Starman after many years for a tie in epilogue and it effectively counts as Starman 81. Had a Superman tie in which ended up being the final Post Crisis story to feature the original Earth 2 Superman. Had a JSA tie in. Had a Catwoman tie in. Had a REBELS tie in which was a book they barely if at all interacted with most of the DCU. Had crossovers with Suicide Squad, Secret Six, Doom Patrol and the Outsiders. Had way Flash tie in, which was the only Flash book running at the time. There was a good couple months where most comics on the shelf were Blackest Night banners.

You really want to compare No Man’s Land to that lol??? Okay.... these are the books that crossed over into No Man’s Land

-8 issues of Azreal
-11 issues of Batman
-3 issues of Batman Chronicles
-11 issues of Legends of the Dark Knight
-the two “No Man’s Land” issues that kicked off the series
-12 Shadow of the Bat issues
-6 issues of Catwoman
-12 issues of Detective Comics
-7 issues of Robin
-1 issue of a one off special of Young Justice.

So congrats, there was a single crossover with a one off special with one non Batman book that still was basically a team led by a Batman character bringing the team to No Man’s Land. Aka it was basically entirely self contained to Batman if you rad Superman, Wonder Woman, GL, etc you would have missed the event. But GL’s crossover basically stopped DC comics.


You really can’t tell the difference between No Man’s Land and Zero Hour which effected multiple Batman books, a Superman book, Flash, Guy Gardner and a bunch of other characters?

I guess you can count Last Laugh which was a series that went from December to January and took up exactly 1 month and compare it to all these crossovers that took the better part of a year.

Come on lol

[DurararaFTW]

Seriously? When Blackest Night came out it effected the Batman line both with its own Batman tie in and was the lead into Morrison’s middle chapters of his B&R run. Had an Adventure Comics tie in that was effectively one of the last Superboy Prime stories before the reboot and really was the last Earth Prime story for years. Had a Booster Gold tie in which was effectively the last time Booster Gold and Ted Kord shared a comic. Had a Teen Titans comic which was effectively playing off of years of Deathstroke Family history going back to the first few issues of the Wolfman/Pérez era Titans. Had another Titans cross over which was effectively the final time Donna Troy had to deal with the loss of her family and Beast Boy’s final meeting with Terra. Had James Robinson resurrect Starman after many years for a tie in epilogue and it effectively counts as Starman 81. Had a Superman tie in which ended up being the final Post Crisis story to feature the original Earth 2 Superman. Had a JSA tie in. Had a Catwoman tie in. Had a REBELS tie in which was a book they barely if at all interacted with most of the DCU. Had crossovers with Suicide Squad, Secret Six, Doom Patrol and the Outsiders. Had way Flash tie in, which was the only Flash book running at the time. There was a good couple months where most comics on the shelf were Blackest Night banners.

You really want to compare No Man’s Land to that lol??? Okay.... these are the books that crossed over into No Man’s Land

-8 issues of Azreal
-11 issues of Batman
-3 issues of Batman Chronicles
-11 issues of Legends of the Dark Knight
-the two “No Man’s Land” issues that kicked off the series
-12 Shadow of the Bat issues
-6 issues of Catwoman
-12 issues of Detective Comics
-7 issues of Robin
-1 issue of a one off special of Young Justice.

So congrats, there was a single crossover with a one off special with one non Batman book that still was basically a team led by a Batman character bringing the team to No Man’s Land. Aka it was basically entirely self contained to Batman if you rad Superman, Wonder Woman, GL, etc you would have missed the event. But GL’s crossover basically stopped DC comics.


You really can’t tell the difference between No Man’s Land and Zero Hour which effected multiple Batman books, a Superman book, Flash, Guy Gardner and a bunch of other characters?

I guess you can count Last Laugh which was a series that went from December to January and took up exactly 1 month and compare it to all these crossovers that took the better part of a year.

Come on lol

Can you please tell me which of those metrics is more important to you? How long the event lasted, number of stories seriously effected or what degree of proximity it has to the next reboot? I'm pretty sure I can find you a Batman story that fits your particular tastes whichever way. Either way, you claim every single character has had a big event other then Batman, I don't think Wonder Woman manages to hang with Green Lantern, Flash, Superman and Batman by any of those standards. And that's still only 5 characters.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Can you please tell me which of those metrics is more important to you? How long the event lasted, number of stories seriously effected or what degree of proximity it has to the next reboot? I'm pretty sure I can find you a Batman story that fits your particular tastes whichever way. Either way, you claim every single character has had a big event other then Batman, I don't think Wonder Woman manages to hang with Green Lantern, Flash, Superman and Batman by any of those standards. And that's still only 5 characters.

Both metrics. If the best you can do for a Batman crossover besides Metal that impacts the entire company and effects many non Batman titles is a 1 month long Joker story, I don’t find it compelling. Like I said Green Lantern had an 8 month crossover that had tie ins that effected the Trinity, every team book from JLA, JSA, Secret Six, REBELS, Teen Titans, Titans, Doom Patrol, was the only thing relevant going on with characters like the Flash and Superboy Prime, and even effected dragged long dead comics like Starman to create the first relevant story for that segment of characters in over a decade.

You can’t compare something like that to No Man’s Land only effecting the Bat books aside from one single issue crossover with a team still led by Batman character or a 1 month special crossover. Like I said there were months where virtually every DC title on the comics shelf were connected to a Green Lantern event and if you followed non GL series you were probably going to get dragged into it.

Aside from Metal there really is no Batman crossover that effects most of the DC that goes on for the better part of the year and/or has company wide reboot implications.

Hell lessen the bar compare Sinestro Corp War which only effected GL titles but still dragged in the Anti Monitor, the entire Justice League, was a pseudo sequel to Infinite Crisis, and dragged pretty much all the major DC characters in the story. No Man’s Land had Superman show up for like one issue and it was basically to address why no other heroes were getting involved besides Batman characters which is kinda the opposite intent, Luthor at the very end to provide some resolution, and the one Young Justice issue where 1/3rd of that team is still Batman characters. So basically you have one event with nearly the entire DC cast participating vs another with 4 non Batman characters, half of which were on a team with a Batman character and it made sense they would help their buddy, 1 of which to explain why nobody else was part of the event, and then Luthor was the only real stretch to pull from the greater DCU at large for the benefit of the story. SCW has 3 of its main antagonists being alternate Superman’s and the other being the closest thing to a company wide villain as you can get

[DurararaFTW]

Both metrics. If the best you can do for a Batman crossover besides Metal that impacts the entire company and effects many non Batman titles is a 1 month long Joker story, I don’t find it compelling. Like I said Green Lantern had an 8 month crossover that had tie ins that effected the Trinity, every team book from JLA, JSA, Secret Six, REBELS, Teen Titans, Titans, Doom Patrol, was the only thing relevant going on with characters like the Flash and Superboy Prime, and even effected dragged long dead comics like Starman to create the first relevant story for that segment of characters in over a decade.

You can’t compare something like that to No Man’s Land only effecting the Bat books aside from one single issue crossover with a team still led by Batman character or a 1 month special crossover. Like I said there were months where virtually every DC title on the comics shelf were connected to a Green Lantern event and if you followed non GL series you were probably going to get dragged into it.

Aside from Metal there really is no Batman crossover that effects most of the DC that goes on for the better part of the year and/or has company wide reboot implications.

Hell lessen the bar compare Sinestro Corp War which only effected GL titles but still dragged in the Anti Monitor, the entire Justice League, was a pseudo sequel to Infinite Crisis, and dragged pretty much all the major DC characters in the story. No Man’s Land had Superman show up for like one issue and it was basically to address why no other heroes were getting involved besides Batman characters which is kinda the opposite intent, Luthor at the very end to provide some resolution, and the one Young Justice issue where 1/3rd of that team is still Batman characters. So basically you have one event with nearly the entire DC cast participating vs another with 4 non Batman characters, half of which were on a team with a Batman character and it made sense they would help their buddy, 1 of which to explain why nobody else was part of the event, and then Luthor was the only real stretch to pull from the greater DCU at large for the benefit of the story. SCW has 3 of its main antagonists being alternate Superman’s and the other being the closest thing to a company wide villain as you can get

Not out to prove The Batman Who Laughs is the first mistake DC has ever made, I'm sure Blackest Night/Brightest Day was a real drag for people that read DC but don't care much for Green Lantern. But like I said, in the new 52 Teen Titans were part of the Batline, they tie all the events, Red Hood and the Outlaws was the only book with Titans characters, it needed to tie into every Batman event too. Zero Year had Flash and Green Lantern tie ins, in the New 52 continuity, it explores a time period for these characters you don't get anywhere else.

But Blackest Nights and Flashpoint are about Flash and Green Lanterns powers. It's core conceit is that the Speed Force and the Rings can do what they do in that crossover or there is no story at all. The Dark Multiverse is not an aspect of Batman's powers, Batman is an ordinary man. What do we do with the Dark Multiverse? We get an evil Doctor Manhattan, which is to say he is a Doctor Manhattan who is an evil Bruce Wayne, we get an evil Robin, which is to say he is a Robin who is an evil Bruce Wayne, we get Hush, which is to say he is a Hush who is an evil Bruce Wayne, we get an evil Green Lantern, which is to say he is a Green Lantern who is an evil Bruce Wayne, we get an evil Flash, which is to say he is a Flash who is an evil Bruce Wayne, we get an evil Cyborg, which is to say he is a Cyborg who is an evil Bruce Wayne we get an evil God of War Bruce Wayne, we get Doomsday Bruce Wayne. And that's just the ones that got their own stories. Any of these could've been anyone else. I find it a real waste of the Dark Multiverse concept.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Not out to prove The Batman Who Laughs is the first mistake DC has ever made, I'm sure Blackest Night/Brightest Day was a real drag for people that read DC but don't care much for Green Lantern. But like I said, in the new 52 Teen Titans were part of the Batline, they tie all the events, Red Hood and the Outlaws was the only book with Titans characters, it needed to tie into every Batman event too. Zero Year had Flash and Green Lantern tie ins, in the New 52 continuity, it explores a time period for these characters you don't get anywhere else.

But Blackest Nights and Flashpoint are about Flash and Green Lanterns powers. It's core conceit is that the Speed Force and the Rings can do what they do in that crossover or there is no story at all. The Dark Multiverse is not an aspect of Batman's powers, Batman is an ordinary man. What do we do with the Dark Multiverse? We get an evil Doctor Manhattan, which is to say he is a Doctor Manhattan who is an evil Bruce Wayne, we get an evil Robin, which is to say he is a Robin who is an evil Bruce Wayne, we get Hush, which is to say he is a Hush who is an evil Bruce Wayne, we get an evil Green Lantern, which is to say he is a Green Lantern who is an evil Bruce Wayne, we get an evil Flash, which is to say he is a Flash who is an evil Bruce Wayne, we get an evil Cyborg, which is to say he is a Cyborg who is an evil Bruce Wayne we get an evil God of War Bruce Wayne, we get Doomsday Bruce Wayne. And that's just the ones that got their own stories. Any of these could've been anyone else. I find it a real waste of the Dark Multiverse concept.

Red Hood and the Outlaws was also a book that was lead by the a character that had exclusively been a Bat character for his entire history before the New 52. It wasn’t “the Outlaws” it was “Red Hood and the Outlaws”. This isn’t the 80’s where editorial could steal away Dick Grayson because the Titans sold more. Jason Todd is going to factor into most Batman events. It’s really no different then the No Man’s Land/Young Justice example where you have a 3 person team led by a Batman character and it makes sense he would bring his buddies with him. Yes Zero Year had 4 non Batman single issue crossovers. Again compare that to Blackest Night where two separate Titans books that very never had a GL character associated with the teams had 3 months worth of Blackest Night stories. Or Batman having crucial development in the main core run of Batman books come from Blackest Night. Or the two months of Booster Gold stories and the only Flash stories DC was publishing at the time being part of a GL story. Or a team like REBELS that almost never crossed over with any mainline series getting hijacked for two issues. Zero Year had one it’s tie ins effectively be a regular Superman story where the events of Zero Year were briefly mentioned and that was 25% of the tie ins that were of books that featured non Batman characters. And they were all one offs. Again when Blackest Night went on, if you read any of the DC team books, you were losing your title for 2-3 months. So if you were a Titans fan at a point no GL characters were part of these, on two separate occasions your books got taken over for several months. If you read Booster Gold, you went 60 days of having to read about Black Lanterns. Like it’s not remotely the same.

Anyways the Dark Multiverse is just a negative multiverse that’s based more off Batman as it’s central figure the way Morrison and John’s established the regular multiverse as being based on Superman.

[Holt]

After yesterday's bloodbath, look forward to fewer non-Bat titles in the future.

[The Darknight Detective]

After yesterday's bloodbath, look forward to fewer non-Bat titles in the future.

Yep. The subject of this thread, at least for the time being, has been rendered moot.

[Sacred Knight]

Maybe it will indeed turn out that continuity fixes and continuity on a large scale will indeed stop being a focus, as I've been a supporter of. Just via a means I can't exactly celebrate because lots of people lost jobs.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

After yesterday's bloodbath, look forward to fewer non-Bat titles in the future.

It’s kinda funny right.... according to this thread Batman is the problem for DC because he’s supposedly oversaturated. Then all the business people who have no agenda to any of these characters come in to clean house and make a merger more economically viable and they look across the board and say “well there’s a lot of problems here, however Batman’s not one of them.

Same as I’ve been saying. Batman’s sales justify its positioning in the company. Adding as many Bat books as they have, probably kept DC’s lineup a lot healthier financially then if they regressed him to the mean.

[prepmaster]

All these evil versions of Batman are like some sort of parody. Isn't there any evil version of Batman that has nothing to do with any existing superhero/supervillain?

[cranger]

Any of these could've been anyone else. I find it a real waste of the Dark Multiverse concept.

Sideways and Terrifics both explored different characters from the Dark Multiverse.