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  1. #226
    Ultimate Member Holt's Avatar
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    They still did try to hinge their universe on TDK to an extent. There’s a reason they went with a similarly dark take for Superman and why all the trailers for MOS trumpeted Nolan’s involvement. They were clearly banking on the dark tone of the Nolan movies working similar magic for Superman, and were taken back when the reception wasn’t as positive.

  2. #227
    Extraordinary Member Güicho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    to an extent. .
    Which is meaningless. We are talking about the character.
    It wasn't the tone, their next GL went laughably in the other direction and was a complete flop.
    It's there was no connective tissue I'm talking about. It was different universes with zero foundation in it.

    The set up was even built into the end of the movie:



    Lucius Fox's "I just need to know what I could have done" ending scene, instead of reviewing the Batwing's software patch, discovering the Batwing auto-pilot was already "fixed" ...Surprise! he survived!
    (FYI an absolutely not dark in tone happy comic book ending.)

    Should have been Licious alone, over and over, solemnly reviewing the Batwing's on-board vid-feed tapes, . .... suddenly playing them back, then he sees it ... a flash of light and and blue and red streak.

    Cut to Alfred seeing Bruce in Paris. Same scene.

    As the post credit scene. ...Universe built.

    Of course they(WB had deep pockets) would have had to throw everything at Bale to return, or signed him from the go.
    But like I said, they did not have the foresight or the vision.

    While Marvel blew past them at theaters.

    This thread has everything completley wrong, to much Batman wasn't the problem, it was the lack of building off him.
    And the missed opportunity was using that established Batman's supposed "real" wold POV as the audience surrogate to an upcoming incredible new Universe.
    Last edited by Güicho; 10-12-2020 at 05:28 AM.

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crossfist View Post
    Why "should" Jon Stewart and Cassandra Cain be doing better than BP and Ms Marvel? Is there something about them that's inherently better? Genuine question.
    The Justice League cartoon provided a strong platform to push him in any media going forward, especially in comics. He should have had an ongoing, become the main Lantern again, guest star in books, been in the Justice League title - all long before Black Panther got a movie. DC squandered it. Even to this day people see him as the Green Lantern because of Bruce Timm.

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Spider-Man and X-Men are almost consistently the big winners for Marvel every year. Maybe there is an Avengers event or something that breaks in, but they have their bread and butter too. Take away the Spider books and DC wins
    Nobody is saying that Marvel doesn't have their top-tier sellers. You're missing the point. But even though Spider-Man and the X-Men are their top sellers, they still pay attention to and develop their other characters and properties, don't they? Like you could make the good-faith argument that even if they did lose either Spider-Man or the X-Men, that they'd still be able to survive or at least have a functional universe. I mean, that's what had to happen for the MCU, wasn't it?

    There was even a time a few years ago when Marvel's publishing seemed to want to do away with the X-Men franchise. They literally had an event called the Death of X and tried to have the Inhumans take over the role of Mutants in the Marvel Universe.

    And even though there were behind-the-scenes reasons for that (and IMO it was not a good move because the X-Men are awesome), it at least shows that Marvel does throw a lot of resources behind their other franchises outside of Spider-Man and X-Men. So much so that they were willing to kill off the X-Men. And, again, a lot of the big Marvel events do not focus around Spider-Man/X-Men. The current event, Empyre, is not. Neither Spider-Man nor a single X-Man has made an appearance in that comic yet and the event revolves around a completely different set of characters. War of the Realms centered on Thor. Secret Empire focused on Captain America. Secret Wars (the 2015 version) was literally all about Doom and his rivalry with Reed Richards.

    On the DC side, you have Death Metal currently going on. But before that was Doomsday Clock, which as others have pointed out, technically revolved around Superman but even then Batman had a huge role. Before that was Heroes in Crisis, in which Harley Quinn was one of the main characters (and which made Wally West into a murderer). Then, before that, was the first Metal event (again focusing on Batman). Before that was Convergence, which...was literally a filler event that I didn't read.

    So, you get my point, yeah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    Joker is the most profitable superhero movie of all time and DC has a bigger revenue in comics.

    I don't know why you people have a weird idolization with Marvel. They were able to have a successful movie franchise thanks to Disney which is good for them, but their comic division is a freaking joke. DC for all their faults are far more competent than they are.
    Dude, I love almost everything about the Joker movie, but that is some maaaaajor spin you're putting out there. Joker isn't the most profitable superhero movie because it grossed the most (which would be what we were measuring if we were talking about its popularity with the general public). It's the most profitable because it had a much lower production budget than most other films in the comic book film genre. However, films like Avengers: Infinity War and Endgame and even Aquaman all grossed more. Aquaman is still the highest-grossing DC film. Only, Aquaman and most other superhero movies have fancy VFX that require a lot of money. Joker didn't really have special effects.

    And, again, I'm a huge DC fan, but if Marvel's comic division is a "joke," then why are they still consistently the #1 publisher in the market?
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 08-06-2020 at 10:46 PM.

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    The Justice League cartoon provided a strong platform to push him in any media going forward, especially in comics. He should have had an ongoing, become the main Lantern again, guest star in books, been in the Justice League title - all long before Black Panther got a movie. DC squandered it. Even to this day people see him as the Green Lantern because of Bruce Timm.
    That's fair.

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    Which is meaningless. We are talking about the character.
    It wasn't the tone, their next GL went laughably in the other direction and was a complete flop.
    It's there was no connective tissue I'm talking about. It was different universes with zero foundation in it.

    The set up was even built into the end of the movie:



    Lucius Fox's "I just need to know what I could have done" ending scene, instead of reviewing the Batwing's software patch, discovering the Batwing auto-pilot was already "fixed" ...Surprise! he survived!
    (FYI an absolutely not dark in tone happy comic book ending.)

    Should have been Licious alone, over and over, solemnly reviewing the Batwing's on-board vid-feed tapes, . .... suddenly playing them back, then he sees it ... a flash of light and and blue and red streak.

    Cut to Alfred seeing Bruce in Paris. Same scene.

    As the post credit scene. ...Universe built.

    Of course they(WB had deep pockets) would have had to throw everything at Bale to return, or signed him from the go.
    But like I said, they did not have the foresight or the vision.

    While Marvel blew past them at theaters.

    This thread has everything completley wrong, to much Batman wasn't the problem, it was the lack of building off him.
    And the missed opportunity was using that Batman's supposed "real" wold POV as the audience surrogate to an incredible new Universe.
    The Nolan trilogy began before the MCU existed. Of course no one was thinking about making a shared universe at the time. They just wanted good movies based on Batman. Nolan didn't even think a third movie was a good idea and Bale didn't want to play Batman past three movies. There was absolutely nothing wrong with keeping the Nolan trilogy as a standalone series when nothing even remotely hinted at it being a shared universe. To do so would have been seen as a cheap, rushed cash grab which was what people are accusing the current DCEU of being.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    Through a shade every chance they got at DC like the recent blank WEDNESDAY covers they made which rightfully pissed off the retailers.
    What are you referring to?

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    No they aren’t but DC’s problem is they are bad at making films, not that they don’t try enough characters
    We're still spouting this? You guys do know that BvS, Suicide Squad and Justice League aren't the only DC films that have ever been made and that Marvel's track record isn't perfect either right?

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    We're still spouting this? You guys do know that BvS, Suicide Squad and Justice League aren't the only DC films that have ever been made and that Marvel's track record isn't perfect either right?
    Not the point. Any DCEU issues have nothing to do with Batman being involved. Same with the comics. There’s always 20-25 issues a month DC puts out that don’t focus on Batman. Outside of the “Metal” events the majority of crossovers don’t focus on Batman as the primary character. DC fans have options.

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Not the point. Any DCEU issues have nothing to do with Batman being involved. Same with the comics. There’s always 20-25 issues a month DC puts out that don’t focus on Batman. Outside of the “Metal” events the majority of crossovers don’t focus on Batman as the primary character. DC fans have options.
    I was responding to your comment about DC being bad at making films not whether or not DC fans have options.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I was responding to your comment about DC being bad at making films not whether or not DC fans have options.
    Again context of discussion...

    MCU didn’t succeed because they had variety. Iron Man, Cap, and Thor were the three characters to launch the first Avengers film. Iron Man had two films, there was a failed Hulk film which was ignored that Iron Man was shoved into, Captain America pushed Iron Man’s father into the first film as much as possible. So really only Thor didn’t rely on Iron Man in phase one. Not to mention Iron Man’s character arc was the driving force of the initial Avengers.

    Then after that they allowed Iron Man to create Ultron, they used Iron Man to basically co lead Civil War, both Spider-Man films basically revolves around using Iron Man. His death was the lynchpin to the Thanos saga as well.

    Variety and an over reliance on Batman has nothing to do with any issues with the films receptions in the DCEU. Marvel relied far more on Iron Man to hold its series together. The only difference is DC has a perceived quality issues in there first few films while Marvel didn’t. It’s a mistake to say the problem is Batman. It was a quality issue. DC got better, but it didn’t get better because they didn’t use Batman. And Marvel didn’t succeed because of variety. If anything Marvel proved that striking gold with one character and piggybacking off of him is a fantastic way to start a franchise

  12. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    Uh, well Marvel is consistently the #1 publisher in the market in terms of sales so...I think they know what they're doing.

    And, I've brought this up before, but since we're on the restaurant metaphor, a restaurant that sells 90% steak is more likely to go out of business than the restaurant down the street that sells steak, fish, chicken, pasta, salad, etc. That’s because, if god forbid the consumer base grows tired of steak, the first restaurant has nothing to really fall back on to offer its customers and they’ll eventually leave. Its called diversification and is a well-worn principle of business.

    If Marvel wanted, they could rest on their laurels and sell 50 Spider-Man titles. After all, titles like Black Panther and even Fantastic Four, Iron Man, and Thor are not usually big sellers for them. However, I'm pretty sure they know that they capture a more diverse and larger audience by having a diverse slate of titles about different characters.
    And DC is #2 so they know what they're doing too?

    Look, I never said less popular characters should absolutely NEVER get their chance, I specifically said if a certain character or franchise REPEATDELY shows it's not popular they should get a smaller push.

    My vegan menu comparison works, if something doesn't sell you make less of it. If someone was tired of steak as you said sales would reflect that. If vegan dishes sold poorly year round your customers don't want them. Why else would McDonald's not sell things like McPizza and McLobster anymore? They tried it out to see if their customers would want it, saw they did not and got rid of it. You'd say they should've kept them anyway because McDonald's is a money making juggernaut and should diversify their menu but you don't stay #1 by routinely putting out a product no one wants.

    And how is Marvel's comic reading audience diverse? I'm pretty sure most comic fans in general are older white guys, is there any data showing their readers are more diverse than DC's?

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Again context of discussion...

    MCU didn’t succeed because they had variety. Iron Man, Cap, and Thor were the three characters to launch the first Avengers film. Iron Man had two films, there was a failed Hulk film which was ignored that Iron Man was shoved into, Captain America pushed Iron Man’s father into the first film as much as possible. So really only Thor didn’t rely on Iron Man in phase one. Not to mention Iron Man’s character arc was the driving force of the initial Avengers.

    Then after that they allowed Iron Man to create Ultron, they used Iron Man to basically co lead Civil War, both Spider-Man films basically revolves around using Iron Man. His death was the lynchpin to the Thanos saga as well.

    Variety and an over reliance on Batman has nothing to do with any issues with the films receptions in the DCEU. Marvel relied far more on Iron Man to hold its series together. The only difference is DC has a perceived quality issues in there first few films while Marvel didn’t. It’s a mistake to say the problem is Batman. It was a quality issue. DC got better, but it didn’t get better because they didn’t use Batman. And Marvel didn’t succeed because of variety. If anything Marvel proved that striking gold with one character and piggybacking off of him is a fantastic way to start a franchise
    Again, was just calling out the "DC doesn't know how to make movies" argument.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    And DC is #2 so they know what they're doing too?
    But then, wouldn't it make sense that they'd want to you know, compete with Marvel?

    Look, I never said less popular characters should absolutely NEVER get their chance, I specifically said if a certain character or franchise REPEATDELY shows it's not popular they should get a smaller push.
    Except, what characters have really gotten significant pushes in recent years outside of Batman? And I'm not talking about characters who "got a miniseries" or even those who get ongoings. A single title doesn't mean a lot if they don't promote it, don't make the events therein central to their universe, and/or don't put an A-list creative team on it. Mr. Miracle? Maybe, but I haven't seen any significant follow-up on the popularity of that title or any attempt to push Scott in the larger DCU and that series might even have been made out-of-canon. We'll see how they follow up with Adam Strange.

    However, even accepting your principle, we then also have to accept that the converse is true too: i.e. that if a property shows potential to be popular, it should receive a push. I've brought this example up again and again, but not only did Wonder Woman have a movie that performed extremely well both critically and financially, catapulting her to a new stage of pop culture awareness, but in January of this year, Wonder Woman #750 was also literally the #1 selling title. And yeah, that was a milestone issue, but nobody would buy that much of Wonder Woman if they weren't interested in her. Oh, and yeah, she has another highly anticipated movie that is due to come out this year (if that still happens). So, how did DC try to build hype around Wonder Woman's movie and then later, her newfound popularity in the general public? Uh, they came out with Dark Knights: Metal and then three years later, Death Metal, both blockbuster events centered around Batman...both in years where Wonder Woman was due to debut at the box office...So yeah....

    And how is Marvel's comic reading audience diverse? I'm pretty sure most comic fans in general are older white guys, is there any data showing their readers are more diverse than DC's?
    Well, I was more so talking about the diversity of fanbases (i.e. that "not-fans" of Spider-Man and X-Men still have plenty to enjoy), but I'm sure that it's appreciated that Marvel has consistent representation of people of color, women, LGBTQ characters, and other underrepresented groups.

  15. #240
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    delete, plz
    Last edited by DurararaFTW; 08-07-2020 at 06:18 AM.

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