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  1. #271
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Guess the best Wonder Woman can get is being a ride-along character in another Bat-centered event. Which apparently to some is enough to qualify being a Wonder Woman-story
    WW is fine at least she's getting a spotlight in an event book and the a movie this year and maybe another in 3 years after that
    She even got her own animated movie(which didn't sell well but still)
    That's more than a lot of characters can say but some would say that still isn't enough

    That's the sort of bridge we are at now some people have a treasure trove of content but want more because they envy the position another character operates at.

  2. #272
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    WW is fine at least she's getting a spotlight in an event book and the a movie this year and maybe another in 3 years after that
    She even got her own animated movie(which didn't sell well but still)
    That's more than a lot of characters can say but some would say that still isn't enough

    That's the sort of bridge we are at now some people have a treasure trove of content but want more because they envy the position another character operates at.
    Two live action films and two DTVs (spaced ten years apart) over the course of 79 years is hardly a "treasure trove of content", especially compared to Batman.

  3. #273
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    No, we don't know that at all. For example, I despise reality TV, but if I cancelled it all on a network I was in control of, does that mean I didn't consult other data first? I can assure you I would be a complete moron to do something like that without other research first. Just because he (like all of us) has a bias doesn't mean he solely acted upon it. Of course, if you have a quote of his stating otherwise, then I will admit I'm wrong regarding Didio.



    Artistic vision is great, but it still sits in the passenger seat, while profit drives the car. Now I'm not arguing whether this is right or wrong, but that's just the way it is with companies as big as DC.
    BTW, since I haven't said it here before on this thread, those who feel Batman is a little ubiquitous might be right. I, like everybody else here, just don't have all the tools to prove or dismiss it. As an egalitarian soul, though, I like the idea of other characters getting a bigger share of the pie.
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  4. #274
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Just because a movie has financial success doesn't mean that it will be transferred to the comics as well. Just look at the MCU, characters like Iron Man, Captain America, Black Panther, Thor and Captain Marvel sell moderate to low despite their movie success. There was hardly any to no crossover whatsoever. The vast majority of movie goers are not comic book readers, they just want to be entertained for a couple of hours and get back to their lives. Because they went to see Wonder Woman or Aquaman does not mean they are gonna run to the nearest comic book store to start reading their books. At best they may buy some merch for their kids and probably some video games. Could they produce some cartoons or animated films? Sure if they deem it cost effective and get some return for their efforts. Marvel attempted to push their characters to the wider audience and the results were average, the same would most likely be the same for DC's characters. WW and AM are getting sequels that will most likely be as successful as their previous movies and of course merch will go along with that but I suspect that there will be no comic bounce because people just want entertainment and are not looking to become comic book readers. Little Timmy or Suzie wants an action figure or t-shirt then fine but I don't think they'll be wanting back issues of comics. Because the next "thing" or comic movie will be right around the corner and Wonder Woman and Aquaman will be in the past like all previous comic movies. But to bring it around to the topic, Batman will continue to sell big because he is super popular just like Spider-man. The difference being that they don't need a movie or milestone issues to sell big.
    Yeah, that's exactly what I said. The comics sales will likely not be much different regardless of the film, it's the wider audience that needs to be catered to. AQUAMAN made so much money, he should have something else in mainstream media riding that wave. WONDER WOMAN, too.

    Though, no, both Aquaguy and Wonder Lady can 100% sit next to Batman and Spiderman in the public zeitgeist. AQUAMAN made serious money, which is not something to sneeze at. WONDER WOMAN is probably more vital in 2020 than ever before. Both concepts are taping into something that people are responding to, both also offer something more interesting than typical superhero fare.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 08-08-2020 at 12:51 PM.

  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    I completely agree it would be great all around, but this has been a problem for decades now. It's not just a matter of creating titles for girls/women, but to get them interested in comics in the first place. Since readerships has been dwindling for all groups since forever, that's not an easy obstacle to overcome.
    Because right now the cesspool known as the Direct Market is determine to go down dying to support a certain demographic.
    They are NOT going to come to comic book stores to get cussed out, verbal abuse, harassed or worst SHOT over asking about certain books.

    Is your readership dwindling?
    Because they tire of seeing the same folks over and over again.
    Because of TOXIC fandoms? See Green Lantern, Blue Beetle, Firestorm and Nova.
    Because of TOXIC stores? Who won't sell a book.
    Because they have found CHEAPER ways to get the books? Ebay, Amazon, Half Price Books, library and so on.

    The interest is there. A combination of the above is part of the issue.

    The other part is FORMAT.
    What are we seeing the OGNS of Cassandra Cain, Raven & Aqualad? SALES.
    What about Squirrel Girl, Miles, Shuri, Faith (YES Valiant's Faith) and Goldie Vance novels? SALES.

    I would say start moving more folks OUT of the direct market. Now some would say what about continuity? What about it??? Honest what about it?

    I think many here would settle for another universe for OGN of it means not being held hostage by Batman.
    Why waste that resource on a 6 issue Black Lightning comic that already has HATE because of Tony Isabella? Just do an OGN. Do a set number.
    Could the adventures of say Midnighter be told in 4 OGNs?

    Variants? Yes you can still do those. Motor Crush had a cover for Barnes and Nobles and everyone else had a different one.
    Because those movie folks are NOT coming to comic book stores. However an OGN can get some sales off of that movie.

    Little Timmy or Suzie wants an action figure or t-shirt then fine but I don't think they'll be wanting back issues of comics.
    Actually....they will--SORT OF.
    I have seen kids DESTROY comic bins at comic cons WORST than adults looking for comics. Now here is the TWIST-they are not looking for Batman. They are LOL looking for Wally West, Nightwing, Static, Falcon, Fantastic Four, Deadpool, WW, Aquaman, Green Lantern Kyle (really???) and others.
    I am still trying to figure out how a 10 year know who Kyle is.

  6. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    BTW, since I haven't said it here before on this thread, those who feel Batman is a little ubiquitous might be right. I, like everybody else here, just don't have all the tools to prove or dismiss it. As an egalitarian soul, though, I like the idea of other characters getting a bigger share of the pie.
    I think the issue is when does quality and quantity control hit Batman?

    Like I said in my other post-why can't some of those be OGNs?

    Wouldn't Joker War work better like that?

    Does Batman who Laughs and Death Metal have to be so many books that overcrowd the market?
    Maybe the reason WW pulls what she pulls is because someone on a BUDGET is being forced to choose between her and Death Metal.


    Yeah, that's exactly what I said. The comics sales will likely not be much different regardless of the film, it's the wider audience that needs to be catered to. AQUAMAN made so much money, he should have something else in mainstream media riding that wave. WONDER WOMAN, too.

    Though, no, both Aquaguy and Wonder Lady can 100% sit next to Batman and Spiderman in the public zeitgeist. AQUAMAN made serious money, which is not something to sneeze at. WONDER WOMAN is probably more vital in 2020 than ever before. Both concepts are taping into something that people are responding to, both also offer something more interesting than typical superhero fare.
    What you are saying there should be more.

    The thing is that MORE has to be OUTSIDE the comic book market.
    Look at Black Panther-excluding Shuri & BP Agents of Wakanda-all his increase has been done outside comic book stores. He has a toothbrush, towels, blankets, valentines, Hot Toy figures, clothes, figures included in toy lines, Black Panther related novels and now a bedroom set.
    Miles Morales-I was in Target and saw Miles Morales shirts and he has another book in 2021.

  7. #277
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Because right now the cesspool known as the Direct Market is determine to go down dying to support a certain demographic.
    They are NOT going to come to comic book stores to get cussed out, verbal abuse, harassed or worst SHOT over asking about certain books.

    Is your readership dwindling?
    Because they tire of seeing the same folks over and over again.
    Because of TOXIC fandoms? See Green Lantern, Blue Beetle, Firestorm and Nova.
    Because of TOXIC stores? Who won't sell a book.
    Because they have found CHEAPER ways to get the books? Ebay, Amazon, Half Price Books, library and so on.

    The interest is there. A combination of the above is part of the issue.

    The other part is FORMAT.
    What are we seeing the OGNS of Cassandra Cain, Raven & Aqualad? SALES.
    What about Squirrel Girl, Miles, Shuri, Faith (YES Valiant's Faith) and Goldie Vance novels? SALES.

    I would say start moving more folks OUT of the direct market. Now some would say what about continuity? What about it??? Honest what about it?

    I think many here would settle for another universe for OGN of it means not being held hostage by Batman.
    Why waste that resource on a 6 issue Black Lightning comic that already has HATE because of Tony Isabella? Just do an OGN. Do a set number.
    Could the adventures of say Midnighter be told in 4 OGNs?

    Variants? Yes you can still do those. Motor Crush had a cover for Barnes and Nobles and everyone else had a different one.
    Because those movie folks are NOT coming to comic book stores. However an OGN can get some sales off of that movie.
    You make a lot of good points, skyvolt2000, especially about the Direct Market.
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  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    No, we don't know that at all. For example, I despise reality TV, but if I cancelled it all on a network I was in control of, does that mean I didn't consult other data first? I can assure you I would be a complete moron to do something like that without other research first. Just because he (like all of us) has a bias doesn't mean he solely acted upon it. Of course, if you have a quote of his stating otherwise, then I will admit I'm wrong regarding Didio.
    Dude. I literally just gave you a quote where Didio states that he downplayed Wally because of “HIS problem” with the character. He literally says that he made the decision he did because of how “he felt” about the character. He admits the same thing when it comes to his issues with Dick Grayson. That’s straight from the horse’s mouth. If you’re still saying we don’t know, that’s just burying your head in the sand.

    Artistic vision is great, but it still sits in the passenger seat, while profit drives the car. Now I'm not arguing whether this is right or wrong, but that's just the way it is with companies as big as DC.
    Sorry but I disagree. One is not the “the passenger” of the other. The creative vision influences profits and vice verse. BUT, when you’re DC and you are only really generating profits off of one property in your larger universe, meanwhile the competition is able to do so with multiple, that’s a problem.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 08-08-2020 at 01:12 PM.

  9. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    BTW, since I haven't said it here before on this thread, those who feel Batman is a little ubiquitous might be right. I, like everybody else here, just don't have all the tools to prove or dismiss it. As an egalitarian soul, though, I like the idea of other characters getting a bigger share of the pie.
    Well, yay. We can agree on that.

  10. #280
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    Dude. I literally just gave you a quote where Didio states that he downplayed Wally because of “HIS problem” with the character. He literally says that he made the decision he did because of how “he felt” about the character. He admits the same thing when it comes to his issues with Dick Grayson. That’s straight from the horse’s mouth. If you’re still saying we don’t know, that’s just burying your head in the sand.
    Okay, let me try this again, "dude": did Didio say he didn't consult any other data or research before he made his decision? What you posted earlier didn't state anything of the kind. Now if you can post something where he said he didn't, then post it (but without the snark this time).

    Yes, he had a problem with Wally, but if he were selling like Batman, do you honestly thin he would have downplayed him? Not that he had to sell that well, of course, but it's not like he was selling like hotcakes before Bart took over.
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  11. #281
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Okay, let me try this again, "dude": did Didio say he didn't consult any other data or research before he made his decision? What you posted earlier didn't state anything of the kind. Now if you can post something where he said he didn't, then post it (but without the snark this time).

    Yes, he had a problem with Wally, but if he were selling like Batman, do you honestly thin he would have downplayed him? Not that he had to sell that well, of course, but it's not like he was selling like hotcakes before Bart took over.
    Nightwing was a ongoing solo for the first time and was selling well a 100 issues in (not Batman good (which is strawpoint, you can't do longform story telling if everything needs to be either Batman good or back to drawing board (but Wonderwoman, Supergirl, Flash good, brands that had been built up for decades). It wasn't selling poorly or well or doing anything at all before Dick. It was a new brand being built. He decided to kill Dick and drop a nuke on Bludhaven to attempt to stop this brand from being built. Jason was meant to take over but ultimately everything that's true about adult Dick and Wally is true about adult Jason (even more, really). I have trouble imaging Marketdata told him nothing was comparative or better then something.

  12. #282
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    Nightwing was a ongoing solo for the first time and was selling well a 100 issues in (not Batman good (which is strawpoint, you can't do longform story telling if everything needs to be either Batman good or back to drawing board (but Wonderwoman, Supergirl, Flash good, brands that had been built up for decades). It wasn't selling poorly or well or doing anything at all before Dick. It was a new brand being built. He decided to kill Dick and drop a nuke on Bludhaven to attempt to stop this brand from being built. Jason was meant to take over but ultimately everything that's true about adult Dick and Wally is true about adult Jason (even more, really). I have trouble imaging Marketdata told him nothing was comparative or better then something.
    I agree with you about the Marketdata, which is probably why, despite Didio's bias against Dick, he wasn't killed off.

    BTW, the idea of killing off the most popular sidekick of them all and a household name in his own right rubs me the wrong way. Now Didio might have wanted to kill Dick for a time and then bring him back (since no one really dies like they used to decades ago anymore), but still...
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!

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  13. #283
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    I agree with you about the Marketdata, which is probably why, despite Didio's bias against Dick, he wasn't killed off.
    The nuke was readied, Barbara was proposed to, the cover of a body in batman's arms was drawn, people had already been paid to start doing this story before Dick was spared.

  14. #284
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    The nuke was readied, Barbara was proposed to, the cover of a body in batman's arms was drawn, people had already been paid to start doing this story before Dick was spared.
    Then why was he spared? I have to assume Didio realized it was a stupid idea after all.
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  15. #285
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Then why was he spared? I have to assume Didio realized it was a stupid idea after all.
    Geoff Johns and editor Eddie Berganza convinced him to go a different route, I wasn't in the room to hear every argument on the subject being made.

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