Why having the universe revolve around Batman is a problem.

[The tall man]

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. The comics sales will likely not be much different regardless of the film, it's the wider audience that needs to be catered to. AQUAMAN made so much money, he should have something else in mainstream media riding that wave. WONDER WOMAN, too.

Though, no, both Aquaguy and Wonder Lady can 100% sit next to Batman and Spiderman in the public zeitgeist. AQUAMAN made serious money, which is not something to sneeze at. WONDER WOMAN is probably more vital in 2020 than ever before. Both concepts are taping into something that people are responding to, both also offer something more interesting than typical superhero fare.

I think people mostly enjoy comic book movies for the typical superhero fare. They want a exhilarating spectacle with high end special effects and a decent story. They are not looking for the Godfather or Citizen Kane, they just want to be entertained for a couple hours. What exactly is Wonder Woman and Aquaman tapping into or offering? Because if its something correlating to current times then I would argue Black Panther had a bigger cultural impact than those other two. Women are starting to dominate popular culture in terms of movies, tv, books, comics and making inroads in video games. Tons of movies and books now feature women as strong lead protagonists so Wonder Woman is not breaking any new ground there. Am not exactly sure what Aquaman is tapping into aside from people really liking Jason Mamoa. Hell in his own book most seem to prefer Mera, both as a character and ruler of Atlantis. Black Panther was unique in that it had a strong black male lead which is far more underrepresented than female characters. However in the case of all three of those movies they were big hits, made a lot of money and had people talking. Then after a short while they faded to the background and it was on to the next thing. And just because a movie made a lot of money doesn't mean that people want to be bombarded with that character wherever they turn. Yes people enjoyed Aquaman does that now mean they want to see him everywhere, promoted on everything? People will get sick of it and him, same goes for Wonder Woman. And again there is a huge distinction between general movie going public and committed comic book readers. If DC business executives see that despite the huge box office numbers for Wonder Woman and Aquaman not translating into increasing comic book sales then they will rightly conclude that those characters have a certain ceiling and it makes no sense to produce more widespread comic content because it's clearly not selling in big numbers. However they will continue to produce movies for as long as they can because that is where they're seeing huge returns. All characters are not created equally, for whatever reason some just catch fire and become popular and enduring while others for whatever reason fail to do so no matter how much of a push they are given. And some just have their small passionate dedicated fans who ride or die with their faves no matter what. And some will always see things as unfair in regards to how some characters are prioritized over others. And maybe it is in some ways but in this world we live in money matters and fan favoritism does not.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think people mostly enjoy comic book movies for the typical superhero fare. They want a exhilarating spectacle with high end special effects and a decent story. They are not looking for the Godfather or Citizen Kane, they just want to be entertained for a couple hours. What exactly is Wonder Woman and Aquaman tapping into or offering? Because if its something correlating to current times then I would argue Black Panther had a bigger cultural impact than those other two. Women are starting to dominate popular culture in terms of movies, tv, books, comics and making inroads in video games. Tons of movies and books now feature women as strong lead protagonists so Wonder Woman is not breaking any new ground there. Am not exactly sure what Aquaman is tapping into aside from people really liking Jason Mamoa. Hell in his own book most seem to prefer Mera, both as a character and ruler of Atlantis. Black Panther was unique in that it had a strong black male lead which is far more underrepresented than female characters. However in the case of all three of those movies they were big hits, made a lot of money and had people talking. Then after a short while they faded to the background and it was on to the next thing. And just because a movie made a lot of money doesn't mean that people want to be bombarded with that character wherever they turn. Yes people enjoyed Aquaman does that now mean they want to see him everywhere, promoted on everything? People will get sick of it and him, same goes for Wonder Woman. And again there is a huge distinction between general movie going public and committed comic book readers. If DC business executives see that despite the huge box office numbers for Wonder Woman and Aquaman not translating into increasing comic book sales then they will rightly conclude that those characters have a certain ceiling and it makes no sense to produce more widespread comic content because it's clearly not selling in big numbers. However they will continue to produce movies for as long as they can because that is where they're seeing huge returns. All characters are not created equally, for whatever reason some just catch fire and become popular and enduring while others for whatever reason fail to do so no matter how much of a push they are given. And some just have their small passionate dedicated fans who ride or die with their faves no matter what. And some will always see things as unfair in regards to how some characters are prioritized over others. And maybe it is in some ways but in this world we live in money matters and fan favoritism does not.

Uh Wonder Woman contributed to that. We didn't have a female lead big blockbuster superhero movie in the current age of superhero movies before that. Why else do you think the MCU finally got off their asses 21 movies in before they tried a movie with a female lead? Because the recognized it was something they had yet to tap into and DC/WB beat them to the punch, and they should get in on it.

Black male leads being less represented than female leads overall doesn't mean the superhero genre specifically had a lot of female leads before WW, or that we didn't need both of them.

Then why was he spared? I have to assume Didio realized it was a stupid idea after all.

Even if he realized it was a dumb idea and was able to be convinced otherwise, the dude admitting his personal biases influence some of his decisions didn't bode well. You have to be unbiased in that position, or as close to that state as you can get. That means characters don't necessarily need to be protected or be given unwarranted pushes, but you also shouldn't throw potential money away either, especially if there is a built in audience. Dick isn't exactly an obscure or unpopular character, he sells reliably by all accounts even when his book is **** and he moves merchandise. It seems pretty stupid to sabotage such an asset.

[The Darknight Detective]

Even if he realized it was a dumb idea and was able to be convinced otherwise, the dude admitting his personal biases influence some of his decisions didn't bode well. You have to be unbiased in that position, or as close to that state as you can get. That means characters don't necessarily need to be protected or be given unwarranted pushes, but you also shouldn't throw potential money away either, especially if there is a built in audience. Dick isn't exactly an obscure or unpopular character, he sells reliably by all accounts even when his book is **** and he moves merchandise. It seems pretty stupid to sabotage such an asset.

I agree it didn't make sense, as well as admitting his bias in the first place.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Okay, let me try this again, "dude": did Didio say he didn't consult any other data or research before he made his decision? What you posted earlier didn't state anything of the kind. Now if you can post something where he said he didn't, then post it (but without the snark this time).

Yes, he had a problem with Wally, but if he were selling like Batman, do you honestly thin he would have downplayed him? Not that he had to sell that well, of course, but it's not like he was selling like hotcakes before Bart took over.

Wally was the star of a very solidly-selling title, especially by today's standards, and was actually selling more than Flash is today. So, it's not like Wally was underperforming. So, what data could he have consulted that told him "huh, it's a good idea to get rid of this guy"?

Also, everything DuraraFTW said. Didio only spared Nightwing because Johns intervened and, unfortunately, had to offer up Superboy as the sacrificial lamb to kill off instead.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Just because a movie has financial success doesn't mean that it will be transferred to the comics as well. Just look at the MCU, characters like Iron Man, Captain America, Black Panther, Thor and Captain Marvel sell moderate to low despite their movie success. There was hardly any to no crossover whatsoever. The vast majority of movie goers are not comic book readers, they just want to be entertained for a couple of hours and get back to their lives.

Yet again, despite that, those characters are still treated in-universe as if they were the top-sellers. Numerous events have either featured or explicitly centered around them. Why is it okay for Marvel to do that, but not DC?

[Agent Z]

I think people mostly enjoy comic book movies for the typical superhero fare. They want a exhilarating spectacle with high end special effects and a decent story. They are not looking for the Godfather or Citizen Kane, they just want to be entertained for a couple hours. What exactly is Wonder Woman and Aquaman tapping into or offering? Because if its something correlating to current times then I would argue Black Panther had a bigger cultural impact than those other two. Women are starting to dominate popular culture in terms of movies, tv, books, comics and making inroads in video games.

There were successful movies starring black males before Black Panther. The first successful Marvel movie adaptation starred a black man. By your logic, T'Challa's movie didn't break any new ground either.

Hell in his own book most seem to prefer Mera, both as a character and ruler of Atlantis.

Nope.

And just because a movie made a lot of money doesn't mean that people want to be bombarded with that character wherever they turn. Yes people enjoyed Aquaman does that now mean they want to see him everywhere, promoted on everything? People will get sick of it and him, same goes for Wonder Woman.

You really don't see the irony of saying this about Wonder Woman and Aquaman while insisting that putting Batman everywhere isn't a problem? Especially when Wonder Woman and Aquaman aren't promoted nearly as often and with the same care as Batman.

[The True Detective]

Because right now the cesspool known as the Direct Market is determine to go down dying to support a certain demographic.
They are NOT going to come to comic book stores to get cussed out, verbal abuse, harassed or worst SHOT over asking about certain books.

Is your readership dwindling?
Because they tire of seeing the same folks over and over again.
Because of TOXIC fandoms? See Green Lantern, Blue Beetle, Firestorm and Nova.
Because of TOXIC stores? Who won't sell a book.
Because they have found CHEAPER ways to get the books? Ebay, Amazon, Half Price Books, library and so on.

The interest is there. A combination of the above is part of the issue.

The other part is FORMAT.
What are we seeing the OGNS of Cassandra Cain, Raven & Aqualad? SALES.
What about Squirrel Girl, Miles, Shuri, Faith (YES Valiant's Faith) and Goldie Vance novels? SALES.

I would say start moving more folks OUT of the direct market. Now some would say what about continuity? What about it??? Honest what about it?

I think many here would settle for another universe for OGN of it means not being held hostage by Batman.
Why waste that resource on a 6 issue Black Lightning comic that already has HATE because of Tony Isabella? Just do an OGN. Do a set number.
Could the adventures of say Midnighter be told in 4 OGNs?

Variants? Yes you can still do those. Motor Crush had a cover for Barnes and Nobles and everyone else had a different one.
Because those movie folks are NOT coming to comic book stores. However an OGN can get some sales off of that movie.


Actually....they will--SORT OF.
I have seen kids DESTROY comic bins at comic cons WORST than adults looking for comics. Now here is the TWIST-they are not looking for Batman. They are LOL looking for Wally West, Nightwing, Static, Falcon, Fantastic Four, Deadpool, WW, Aquaman, Green Lantern Kyle (really???) and others.
I am still trying to figure out how a 10 year know who Kyle is.

Why do you always have anecdotal evidence about people supposedly not wanting Batman stuff? Even if that is true, ok, so? Are you saying kids don't like Batman? It's blatantly obvious you have some bizarre, petty bias against Batman and are more than willing to share your stories of his books/merchandise collecting dust. I bet you've seen kids who prefer Batman to other heroes but you never tell those stories only vice versa. What do you think will happen if you admit he's popular?

[manwhohaseverything]

Why do you always have anecdotal evidence about people supposedly not wanting Batman stuff? Even if that is true, ok, so? Are you saying kids don't like Batman? It's blatantly obvious you have some bizarre, petty bias against Batman and are more than willing to share your stories of his books/merchandise collecting dust. I bet you've seen kids who prefer Batman to other heroes but you never tell those stories only vice versa. What do you think will happen if you admit he's popular?

To be fair, main reason the character is popular is because the character is treated as power fantasy. He is the "underdog" who beats up everyone. He is "ninja". He is rich. He is "smartest" man. He is "vulnerable" and "human". So on and so forth, this is specifically done by having him make jobber out of many other characters.This is what casual fans think of batman. Ultimately, the only thing that's true out if those is him being rich.Everything else is bogus claims. Look at the difference in treatment. When superman goes evil. He is a crybaby wimp who gets beaten bloody by batman, alfred... Etc and jobs. When batman goes evil, he not only takes out universes but is omnipotent. Why the hell is he called human again?

[The True Detective]

To be fair, main reason the character is popular is because the character is treated as power fantasy. He is the "underdog" who beats up everyone. He is "ninja". He is rich. He is "smartest" man. He is "vulnerable" and "human". So on and so forth, this is specifically done by having him make jobber out of many other characters.This is what casual fans think of batman. Ultimately, the only thing that's true out if those is him being rich.Everything else is bogus claims. Look at the difference in treatment. When superman goes evil. He is a crybaby wimp who gets beaten bloody by batman, alfred... Etc and jobs. When batman goes evil, he not only takes out universes but is omnipotent. Why the hell is he called human again?

That has nothing to do with his mainstream popularity, he's in Batgod mode much less often outside comics in major media appearances. He wasn't the best at everything in the Adam West show, Burton movies, Nolan trilogy, Arkham series or Batman: The Animated Series and those are all the main reasons why he's popular.

Casual fans like Batman because they think he's cool, badass and like the fact he doesn't have special powers but fights crime anyway. You can talk about him not being human and vulnerable all you want but arguably the most popular incarnation, Christian Bale's was nowhere near Batgod territory.

Also his whole dark and mysterious shtick helps his overall aura and presentation same with Darth Vader image helps big time. He's one of the first and few mainstream superheroes who was dark and powerless which contrasts with the more typical bright, superpowered heroes.

[SecretWarrior]

This is the result when the heroes in your universe don’t have distinct roles. Everything just get pored into the most popular character and all the other franchise just kind of whither on the vine.

This is how the Fox films destroyed the X-Men--by focusing everything on Wolverine and later Magneto. You couldn't invest in the X-men because they were all second fiddle to the developed, angsty, white, male lead.

This is why Marvel Studios thrives--by spotlighting several different heroes and giving the audience more than one character to invest in. No character has universal appeal, so invest in a broader demographic of equals. You didn't have to like Captain America or Iron Man to like the Avengers. This is why they're doing more groups and team ups now instead of straight solo films.

Early on, Game of Thrones worked because the writing supported several different interesting POV characters. You didn't have to like a single Stark to like the books or the show.

DC should definitely invest more in their other pillars.



Also, a street level character shouldn't be setting the story tone for an entire universe filled with magic and sci fi. They can have their own corner within a world with those elements, but their stories can't be the reason for why sci fi or magic elements exist. That's just going to undermine the character by deviating significantly from the original concept. It would be like Captain America suddenly becoming Sorcerer Supreme. Yes, they share the same universe, but I don't want Captain America stories to become Dr. Strange stories.

[manwhohaseverything]

That has nothing to do with his mainstream popularity, he's in Batgod mode much less often outside comics in major media appearances. He wasn't the best at everything in the Adam West show, Burton movies, Nolan trilogy, Arkham series or Batman: The Animated Series and those are all the main reasons why he's popular.

Casual fans like Batman because they think he's cool, badass and like the fact he doesn't have special powers but fights crime anyway. You can talk about him not being human and vulnerable all you want but arguably the most popular incarnation, Christian Bale's was nowhere near Batgod territory.

Also his whole dark and mysterious shtick helps his overall aura and presentation same with Darth Vader image helps big time. He's one of the first and few mainstream superheroes who was dark and powerless which contrasts with the more typical bright, superpowered heroes.

If we are talking dcau Then batgod was probably invented by timm. Arkham series is very self contained. Nobody is denying that the company is not goid at making batman content. But, when it comes to other properties. Their strike record is bad. Darkknight returns was one of the thibgs that turned things around for batman. That had superman being turned to a jobber. Tower of babel cemeted jl as batman's sidekicks as well.There is a huge contingent of batman fans who like him not because he fights crime. But, because he fights darkseid, mongul... Etc whoever he wants without the powers. That's shouldn't be allowed. If we are pulling the human card

If Christian bales batman started beating superman, even with plotdevices like kryptonite. I wouldn't call that barman human anymore. Him fighting crime and noir stories as human is one thing. Him doing scifi and action should have nipped in the bud. That's superman's and other powered heroes territory. Grappling darkseid, overthrowing mongul.. Etc. It's like batman can do everything now. He is a garystu.

Batman should only be jl's tech support(i am being generous), financer(if jl needs money that is. I mean, themiscra and kryptonian tech is at disposal) ,human relations and pr management (this one i think should be batman's most important job. But, alas its batman. Not bruce wayne) , detective and nothing else.

[The tall man]

That has nothing to do with his mainstream popularity, he's in Batgod mode much less often outside comics in major media appearances. He wasn't the best at everything in the Adam West show, Burton movies, Nolan trilogy, Arkham series or Batman: The Animated Series and those are all the main reasons why he's popular.

Casual fans like Batman because they think he's cool, badass and like the fact he doesn't have special powers but fights crime anyway. You can talk about him not being human and vulnerable all you want but arguably the most popular incarnation, Christian Bale's was nowhere near Batgod territory.

Also his whole dark and mysterious shtick helps his overall aura and presentation same with Darth Vader image helps big time. He's one of the first and few mainstream superheroes who was dark and powerless which contrasts with the more typical bright, superpowered heroes.

100% agree. People always go on about Batgod this and Batgod that but honestly when was the last time you could point to Batman and legitimately claim Batgod was in full effect? Probably Morrison's JLA. That accusation is so overblown and such a cheap and tired attack line. Batman has been put through the ringer for over the last decade plus, he has had no easy victories, been made to look as the biggest jerk/a-hole in the dcu and has become the whipping boy for the batfamily. And as The True Detective has stated there is no hint/trace of Batgod in any media appearances at all, he struggles and fails and nothing comes easily. Unlike Wonder Woman in her movie. And Batman became popular because of his mystique and dark persona, his relentless nature, drive and determination. How he is shown to persevere and overcome no matter what and how he accomplishes all that without any superpowers. He is not some an alien with god level powers or some immortal demigod, he is a normal man and people can relate to that on some level. And also his mythos with all the colorful characters (allies and villains) as well as the setting itself (Gotham City) adds to his popularity. Its not one specific thing its everything that encompasses Batman and his world. But some people don't like that, they'll rather blame and attack Batman for everything he's earned and built up over 8 decades than look at ther own favorite characters. Accusations of Batgod are a lazy attack line when one doesn't have a legitimate or compelling argument to make against Batman, it's returning to a dried up well. Any objective reader can see that there has been no sightings of Batgod in forever. Just read King's run and Tynion's current run as proof of that. And Synder's The Batman Who Laughs is not evidence, that character is a parody and a mcguffin who serves to fit an over the top narrative. He should not even be seen as a real character.

[manwhohaseverything]

100% agree. People always go on about Batgod this and Batgod that but honestly when was the last time you could point to Batman and legitimately claim Batgod was in full effect?

Mate! We are having a batgod event. Why shouldn't we treat bwl as an evidence for batfans wanting everything and everyfield to be dominated by batman? . And if superman's powers can be restricted for making a balanced dcu. For example, supes being less faster than flash,less intelligent than lex/bruce, .. Etc. Then batman should be restricted as well.There should genre locks for characters like batman and batman himself especially . Even if batman ventures into scifi. He shouldn't be taking on cthulu-esque entities nor supernatural beings.

[SiegePerilous02]

100% agree. People always go on about Batgod this and Batgod that but honestly when was the last time you could point to Batman and legitimately claim Batgod was in full effect? Probably Morrison's JLA. That accusation is so overblown and such a cheap and tired attack line. Batman has been put through the ringer for over the last decade plus, he has had no easy victories, been made to look as the biggest jerk/a-hole in the dcu and has become the whipping boy for the batfamily. And as The True Detective has stated there is no hint/trace of Batgod in any media appearances at all, he struggles and fails and nothing comes easily. Unlike Wonder Woman in her movie. And Batman became popular because of his mystique and dark persona, his relentless nature, drive and determination. How he is shown to persevere and overcome no matter what and how he accomplishes all that without any superpowers. He is not some an alien with god level powers or some immortal demigod, he is a normal man and people can relate to that on some level. And also his mythos with all the colorful characters (allies and villains) as well as the setting itself (Gotham City) adds to his popularity. Its not one specific thing its everything that encompasses Batman and his world. But some people don't like that, they'll rather blame and attack Batman for everything he's earned and built up over 8 decades than look at ther own favorite characters. Accusations of Batgod are a lazy attack line when one doesn't have a legitimate or compelling argument to make against Batman, it's returning to a dried up well. Any objective reader can see that there has been no sightings of Batgod in forever. Just read King's run and Tynion's current run as proof of that. And Synder's The Batman Who Laughs is not evidence, that character is a parody and a mcguffin who serves to fit an over the top narrative. He should not even be seen as a real character.

For the first bolded: yeah, no. Morrison is the only writer who can really pull off BatGod well, because when he wrote him the JLA setting he wrote EVERYONE as Gods and still had room for Batman to mess up once and while like a good character should. Waid followed up with the Tower of Babel, a pretty good execution of an idea that nerds have seized upon and exaggerated to Batman being able to beat anyone with prep time. To the point where we have him judo trowing Kalibak, outrunning the Omega Beams, knocking out Sinestro (with ring shield up) with a batarang, knocking out the Cheetah with a single punch and strangling her on two separate occasions (y'know, someone who can take a hit from Wonder Woman), Snyder's Batman trapped Wonder Woman in an illusion with another magic lasso that only he knew about and was never brought up before or since, etc.

For the second bolded: How did everything come easy to Wonder Woman in her movie vs what Batman typically goes through? She was shown working her ass off to achieve her skills, her mentor/aunt died, her boyfriend died, and she had to learn a harsh lesson from Ares that shook up how she viewed the WWI conflict and still stuck to her morals. To claim it was easy for her just because she had superpowers or whatever is laughable.

Also, don't act like he's the only character who struggles and perseveres, or that Superman being an alien or Wonder Woman being an Amazon mean they don't have relatable qualities. People don't all relate to the same things, you don't have to 100% relate to a character to find them interesting or compelling, and Batman has trappings that the average person can't relate to. On average, I think more people can relate to working a 9-to-5 job like Clark Kent, being adopted like Clark, or being raised by a single parent like Diana than those who can relate to being billionaires. People can relate to some aspects of Batman, but certainly not all of them, same with the other characters. Variety is good. Wonder Woman's movie did very well so people are responding to her similar to the way they can respond to Batman, and there was hype for Superman's rebooted film before it came out so clearly there is interest there as well.

[manwhohaseverything]

To be fair, i don't particularly think superman struggles at all. Especially, when it comes to physicality. He is pretty much god.Wonder woman does. Superman, not so much.
Having genre locks and power stucture locks is the only way a balanced universe can be made. Batman can struggle with crimes, noir style detective work..etc. Traditional Superman should be morality plays being messiah and all that. Wonder woman can be the action heroine.green lantern can be scifi/space-cop adventures. So on and so forth.