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  1. #166
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    Now I feel guilty for liking B&R.
    I mean... Chris O'Donell then... And George Clooney... And I was this teen who liked pretty colours... And Uma Thurman was cool. It was campy as hell, it was bad, buuuuuuut...

    Yeah, this is absolutely my guilty pleasure XD.
    Talent-wise, it was pretty damn good. The late Joel Schumacher was a good director, too, but his vision for superhero films left something to be desired (though Batman Forever was okay, IMO.
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  2. #167
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Talent-wise, it was pretty damn good. The late Joel Schumacher was a good director, too, but his vision for superhero films left something to be desired (though Batman Forever was okay, IMO.
    To be honest, I liked this one more than Forever. Firstly, because I wasn't really convinced by Kilmer (not because he was blond or anything; I think I've never liked his acting skills a lot ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). Secondly, because it was so different from Returns that it just throw me off centre back then. By Batman and Robin, I was already more attuned to the style. and, well, as I said, I like Clooney a lot more. I was a little picky film nerd even when I was a kid, I guess. I think I'm a lot softer now.
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  3. #168
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    B&R is a good film. Its a film that exceeds in everything it attempts to do.
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

  4. #169
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    What did anyone expect? Batman fans are less likely to admit their favourite character might be getting a disproportionately unfair push.

  5. #170
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Okay, if your favorite character was given a "disproportionately unfair push" of their own by DC, what would that translate into CB sales? Before you post, think about it for a while and remember the actual demographics involved.

    Forgot one other thing: all those Batman fans who will still be buying Bat products, regardless.
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!

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  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Okay, if your favorite character was given a "disproportionately unfair push" of their own by DC, what would that translate into CB sales? Before you post, think about it for a while and remember the actual demographics involved.

    Forgot one other thing: all those Batman fans who will still be buying Bat products, regardless.
    I think reducing the argument to people just arguing for their favorite characters is a bit unfair and inaccurate. Again, Batman is one of my favorite characters ever but even I think that almost a third of DC's output being dominated by one character, no matter who that character is, is...not a smart business decision. On top of that, Batman shows up in many other characters' titles and is, on average, presented as the most important individual in the DC Universe, more so than any other member of the JLA.

    Meanwhile, it does at times seem that other characters, which historically have proven at the very least profitable and as a source of critical acclaim, have been left by the wayside. For example, it's been years since we've had regular Swamp Thing, Lobo, or JSA titles; Green Lantern is currently reduced to only one miniseries; Green Arrow currently doesn't even have a title; the Titans franchise has been largely gutted and their most popular aspects absorbed into, you guessed it, the Batman franchise; etc.

    Plus, it's not like there isn't demand for these characters. In the age of the MCU where the general public has proven to be incredibly receptive to superhero content and where characters like Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Black Panther, etc. have found incredible mainstream success, it's hard to believe that DC can't successfully market their other characters to the comic-buying audience. And even the comic book audience has shown that they are willing to support other characters.

    I mean, again, it was only in January of this year that Wonder Woman #750 was literally #1 on the sales charts. And yes, that was a milestone issue, but its evidence that a) Wonder Woman has an audience and b) that audience is potentially a large one. So, imagine what it'd be like if DC invested in her world and her mythology the same way they did in Batman's or even just the same way that Marvel does for Thor. Imagine if Cheetah was established as just as important as Joker or Luthor or if Ares was rightully treated like the cosmic-level threat he should be and was given the importance of someone like Marvel's Loki. Imagine if Wonder Woman got cool events focusing on her supporting characters and upgrades and if the ongoings in her book spilled over into the larger DC Universe. That would, actually, be awesome. But, they don't. Not with anywhere near the same regularity that that happens for Batman.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 08-02-2020 at 07:28 PM.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    I think reducing the argument to people just arguing for their favorite characters is a bit unfair and inaccurate.

    Meanwhile, it does at times seem that other characters, which historically have proven at the very least profitable and as a source of critical acclaim, have been left by the wayside. For example, it's been years since we've had regular Swamp Thing, Lobo, or JSA titles; Green Lantern is currently reduced to only one miniseries; the Titans franchise has been largely gutted and their most popular aspects absorbed into, you guessed it, the Batman franchise; etc.
    Remember what Dark Knight Detective said-

    Forgot one other thing: all those Batman fans who will still be buying Bat products, regardless.
    Batman could beat Catwoman EVERY issue.
    Batman could abuse Damian and Duke EVERY issue.
    Batman could drop the N word for 30 straight pages Every Issue.
    Show me the comic book store that won't order it. Even with the Tom King Hate-Batman numbers did not go down that much.
    No matter how BAD the book could be-that store is not going to stop ordering it.
    You can toss the WORST or most HATED writer you can name-nothing will change. I would bet that writer would eventually get fans and prove to be good to decent.
    It's Batman-a quality story is bonus. He had guaranteed shelf space everywhere.

    and remember the actual demographics involved
    Here is another issue. The folks who made Cap Marvel, Black Panther and most of Marvel's trash popular are not in comic book stores. The ones who made Moon Girl and Ms Marvel regularly beat Batman and most of DC in trade or digital or both-are not in comic book stores.

    And lets not forget the TOXIC behavior we have seen over the years. Not just from comicgate. DC shutdown their messgeboard for a REASON. We don't need to discuss the war of Lanterns or Blue Beetles or Firestorms. How many Batman books have been stabbed, peed on, eaten, burned or defaced?

    From a business stand point you are correct with trade sales supporting you. However with this direct market and the baggage it brings that logic doesn't work. Which is why you are seeing more pushing of trades and OGNS. They are BYPASSING the problem.

  8. #173
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    So, what are we talking about, the business side or creative side? Why are people/readers here talking about business when the cosumers should be talking about why having the universe revolve around batman is bad for storytelling and from world building perspective. What are we? The management? We won't get an ounce of money these corporate companies make from spiderman, batman and superman. So people talking about money like "hah! My side win. Because my character sells more". In fact, we are essentially pouring money into the machine.So,regardless of whomever wins, you lose. So,people should be debating wether the product they bought or the story they are reading is good or not.In this case, why having universe spinning around batman creates bad or good stories as consumers.I guess, this is my humble suggestion to take this discussion back to the creative side as a consumer.
    BECAUSE the "Batman's push is a problem (i.e. for them) crowd, inevitably say something like

    Again, Batman is one of my favorite characters ever but even I think that almost a third of DC's output being dominated by one character, no matter who that character is, is...not a smart business decision.
    I think reducing the argument to people just arguing for their favorite characters is a bit unfair and inaccurate.
    I don't. I think its pretty much bog standard and accurate. Thought it may not be their self-proclaimed "FAVORITE" but charaters that someone feels for whatrever personal reason are more deserveing of a push.
    Case in point:
    Meanwhile, it does at times seem that other characters, which historically have proven at the very least profitable and as a source of critical acclaim, have been left by the wayside. For example, it's been years since we've had regular Swamp Thing, Lobo, or JSA titles; Green Lantern is currently reduced to only one miniseries; Green Arrow currently doesn't even have a title; the Titans franchise has been largely gutted and their most popular aspects absorbed into, you guessed it, the Batman franchise; etc.

    Plus, it's not like there isn't demand for these characters. In the age of the MCU where the general public has proven to be incredibly receptive to superhero content and where characters like Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Black Panther, etc. have found incredible mainstream success, it's hard to believe that DC can't successfully market their other characters to the comic-buying audience. And even the comic book audience has shown that they are willing to support other characters.
    Well you could just blame everything on racism like the above poster but they're probably a lot more nuance to the situation than that.


    And I love Captain Atom too. But I don't think he'd ever be bigger than Superman. Doesn't mean he shouldn't be given focus. A new title, a central role in an event, etc. Something like his Armageddon: The End miniseries would be great. But, again, the point is that DC puts too much effort into propping up the Bat-line for such a focus on B- or even other A-list characters to be feasible now.
    ...
    I don't think you get it.


    They keep trying to do this exact thing and meandering. You keep saying they need to do XYZ to push characters. . . Yet right alongside Bats and Supes they tried to push
    MARK SHAW: Manhunter. IN the LEVIATHAN story.

    As a case study of what happens. That was a really good story that people ignored.
    Lots and lots of things like that occur but people Don't... support... these things. There's more to it than that though.
    Also attributing marvels success to pushing outside characters is just untrue as well.

    I also think if... you can't conceptualize how Captain Atom could become as big as big as superman which being a big name translates to financially viable from a companies perspective
    then it behooves the companies to NOT listen to people with that attitude.
    Your positions don't get.

    You don't get a Billion Dollar Carol Danvers movie without the thought that she's a billion dollar property that could be as big as wonder woman.
    Last edited by Midnight_v; 08-02-2020 at 10:55 PM.
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  9. #174
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    For everybody here who feels their favorites are being slighted, here's something that you can actually do about it (beyond purchasing those products featuring them, of course): have your non-CB friends and family check them out. Yes, you can have current readers you know read them, too, but they most likely know about them already or only have enough money to spend on their own favorites. That's how you can change the industry, IMO.
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  10. #175
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Batman could beat Catwoman EVERY issue.
    Batman could abuse Damian and Duke EVERY issue.
    Batman could drop the N word for 30 straight pages Every Issue.
    Show me the comic book store that won't order it. Even with the Tom King Hate-Batman numbers did not go down that much.
    No matter how BAD the book could be-that store is not going to stop ordering it.
    You can toss the WORST or most HATED writer you can name-nothing will change. I would bet that writer would eventually get fans and prove to be good to decent.
    It's Batman-a quality story is bonus. He had guaranteed shelf space everywhere.
    But Batman gets the best creative teams always, so how can his stories be remotely bad?
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!

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  11. #176
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    If you put a top creative team on a book and then the fans complain that the book is not good and then refuse to buy said title
    Then you already know why DC won't be pushing some of your favorite characters anymore

    Now Batman and other characters are different because no matter how much fans complain about how bad certain characters are the sales always remain more or less the same
    The only character I've seen drop in sales so far is Superman under Bendis but even that is a small drop

  12. #177
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing
    If you put a top creative team on a book and then the fans complain that the book is not good and then refuse to buy said title
    Then you already know why DC won't be pushing some of your favorite characters anymore

    Now Batman and other characters are different because no matter how much fans complain about how bad certain characters are the sales always remain more or less the same
    The only character I've seen drop in sales so far is Superman under Bendis but even that is a small drop
    For everybody here who feels their favorites are being slighted, here's something that you can actually do about it (beyond purchasing those products featuring them, of course): have your non-CB friends and family check them out. Yes, you can have current readers you know read them, too, but they most likely know about them already or only have enough money to spend on their own favorites. That's how you can change the industry, IMO.
    This so much this.

    Even at that... Mr.Terrific has a book. The people who say "the universe revolving around batman is a problem, but they haven't Supported & more importantly promoted things like "The Terrifics" really aren't doing anything to HELP them problem.

    Also... when a non-batman character gets a book and all people do is complain about mischaracterization for example and then refuse to support it... the beancounters over there likely don't see that.

    What works is bats, and supes... any desires beyond that have the burden of proof be on them and the people clamoring for it.

    and distantly... there needs to be a writer that WANTS to write a title, AND have the ability to do so. Alan Moore isn't going come back to write swamp thing, and the last run was what? So you get things like
    Swampthing in hollywood. *facepalm*. Buut... do you wants swampthing or no?
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  13. #178
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    It seems the solution is buying bad to mediocre stories of minor characters I like or titles from top creators writing the same 3 characters over and over again? Makes me more grateful for Lemire's Green Arrow or Simone's Plastic Man.
    Last edited by batnbreakfast; 08-03-2020 at 07:19 AM.

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    BECAUSE the "Batman's push is a problem (i.e. for them) crowd, inevitably say something like
    I don't. I think its pretty much bog standard and accurate. Thought it may not be their self-proclaimed "FAVORITE" but charaters that someone feels for whatrever personal reason are more deserveing of a push.
    Case in point:
    Then, you just haven’t been paying attention. I don’t think anyone here is saying that any character is “more deserving” of a push than Batman is. But are they deserving of a push even if that means that there will be one or two less Batman titles? Uh, yes. Especially when at least a few of those characters are considered (or at least once were considered) central characters to DC lore. And framing it as “well you’re just pushing for your favorites” is reductive.

    As I’ve said ad nauseum at this point, Batman is one of my favorites. However, I don’t think it’s wise for DC to revolve solely around Batman because a) it does start to strain credulity when Batman is just automatically the best at everything in a world populated by gods, demigods, and ultra-powerful aliens (at least some of which should by all logic outclass him); b) it starts to take away some of that grounded relatability that makes Batman popular in the first place; and c) it makes the DCU less diverse because when everything is in support of Batman and the Batverse, nothing else can really get the attention it deserves or is just shoehorned into the Batman universe.

    That last point is very important. This is not about saying “I think Green Arrow is better than Batman and should be getting more attention.” No. It’s just about making sure that characters like Green Arrow and the JSA and Swamp Thing just get their due. However, there are only so many books DC can put out, so putting out 20 Batman titles…yeah, that tends to necessitate a lot of resources and capital, capital that could go towards promoting other characters

    Well you could just blame everything on racism like the above poster but they're probably a lot more nuance to the situation than that.
    Again, I think just reducing it to “blaming everything on racism” is reductive and an attempt to simply disregard the argument without actually engaging with it. Do I think that the current situation is solely due to racism? No. But do racial biases play a role or at the very least, does Batman benefit from those biases? More than likely, yes. Bruce Wayne is, after all, a straight, cisgender white man. And while that in no way means he should be vilified for being those things, such intense focus on the Batverse means that a) characters who are people of color, LGBTQ, women, etc. get less focus and b) those that do get focus tend to be presented as supporting characters of Batman, who is again a straight, cisgender white man.

    After all, who is considered DC’s biggest LGBTQ character? Batwoman. And it’s only been recently, with Wonder Woman’s bisexuality being confirmed in canon, that Diana might now be able to claim that position. Additionally, we don’t see that many black characters in the current state of the DCU and the ones that we do see are usually presented as supporting characters of Batman (and other white characters) as opposed to actually being the center of their own franchise.

    Let’s take Black Lightning as an example. Black Lightning for all intents and purposes should be his own franchise. He was one of DC’s first black heroes, he didn’t debut as a member of a team, he has his own established supporting cast, and he currently has a pretty popular and well-received TV series. However, comic-wise, we currently only see Jefferson as a member of Batman & the Outsiders alongside Duke Thomas (a Batman supporting character) and as such he’s presented as an extension of Batman’s world. I mean, why doesn’t Jefferson have his own ongoing? Why isn’t he leading a team that’s just called “the Outsiders”? I mean, they could absolutely capitalize on the success this character has found in other media, but no…let's make him dependent on Batman instead.

    Contrast that with how Marvel holds up Black Panther. Black Panther, as far as I know, has never really been a top-tier seller. However, in response to the movie’s awesome success and even before that, Marvel invested in the property and that mythology. They put one of the most famous writers in the world right now, Ta-Nehisi Coates, on the Black Panther title and gave him access to some of the best artists in the business, like Daniel Acuña. And let's not forget Christopher Priest's groundbreaking run from 20 years ago. Furthermore, the book itself explores revolutionary themes of Afrofuturism and on top of that, T’Challa is also the current leader of the Avengers with a starring role in Empyre and many other events before that.

    And while BP is not the strongest seller, Marvel is still willing to take that chance on him. That is the point. They don't shoehorn him into someone else's book. They don't make him into a supporting character of Spider-Man. They let him stand on his own. And it works out for them.

    So…can we really say that DC is doing what it can by its minority characters in comparison?

    I don't think you get it.


    They keep trying to do this exact thing and meandering. You keep saying they need to do XYZ to push characters. . . Yet right alongside Bats and Supes they tried to push
    MARK SHAW: Manhunter. IN the LEVIATHAN story.
    Okay, saying that Mark Shaw got a “push” is pretty much the definition of an overstatement. Can you point me to the maxiseries that centered exclusively on Mark Shaw Manhunter? Or even one that starred just him or Kate Spencer and examined the Manhunter legacy in detail? Or can you tell me that he was the one who garnered the favor of a multiversal goddess and was granted the power to reshape the universe in his image? No, because the Batman who Laughs got all of that. The story of Mark Shaw hasn’t even really been that expanded upon and is mostly contained to the Superman books and, while compelling, has taken a back seat to all the Death Metal stuff.

    However, I wouldn’t say people “ignored” it. Event Leviathan actually debuted to strong numbers and last I heard, it was getting a follow-up miniseries.
    I also think if... you can't conceptualize how Captain Atom could become as big as big as superman which being a big name translates to financially viable from a companies perspective
    then it behooves the companies to NOT listen to people with that attitude.
    Your positions don't get.

    You don't get a Billion Dollar Carol Danvers movie without the thought that she's a billion dollar property that could be as big as wonder woman.
    Do I think Captain Atom will be as bigger than Superman, a character who has been around for over 80 years and is embedded in the American psyche? I mean, it’s a tall order. However, do I think that he should be headlining his own comic and/or receiving attention and that he can be incredibly successful in his own right as a franchise? Yes, yes I do.

    And here's the thing: you don't have to think "this property will be bigger than X" in order to show your full-fledged support. All you have to do is show that you think that whatever property you've got can be successful. The point is that DC seemingly doesn't think anything in their universe that's not tied with Batman or Superman (but mostly Batman) has the chance to be successful.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 08-03-2020 at 11:09 AM.

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post

    Let’s take Black Lightning as an example. Black Lightning for all intents and purposes should be his own franchise. He was one of DC’s first black heroes, he didn’t debut as a member of a team, he has his own established supporting cast, and he currently has a pretty popular and well-received TV series. However, comic-wise, we currently only see Jefferson as a member of Batman & the Outsiders alongside Duke Thomas (a Batman supporting character) and as such he’s presented as an extension of Batman’s world. I mean, why doesn’t Jefferson have his own ongoing? Why isn’t he leading a team that’s just called “the Outsiders”? I mean, they could absolutely capitalize on the success this character has found in other media, but no…let's make him dependent on Batman instead.
    .
    To be fair,sucess in other media doesnt always translate to a successful comic book run.Which is why you dont just throw a ongoing at him and hope that it doesnt tank.

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