Why having the universe revolve around Batman is a problem.

[manwhohaseverything]

So, what are we talking about, the business side or creative side? Why are people/readers here talking about business when the cosumers should be talking about why having the universe revolve around batman is bad for storytelling and from world building perspective. What are we? The management? We won't get an ounce of money these corporate companies make from spiderman, batman and superman. So people talking about money like "hah! My side win. Because my character sells more". In fact, we are essentially pouring money into the machine.So,regardless of whomever wins, you lose. So,people should be debating wether the product they bought or the story they are reading is good or not.In this case, why having universe spinning around batman creates bad or good stories as consumers.I guess, this is my humble suggestion to take this discussion back to the creative side as a consumer.

[Midnight_v]

So, what are we talking about, the business side or creative side? Why are people/readers here talking about business when the cosumers should be talking about why having the universe revolve around batman is bad for storytelling and from world building perspective. What are we? The management? We won't get an ounce of money these corporate companies make from spiderman, batman and superman. So people talking about money like "hah! My side win. Because my character sells more". In fact, we are essentially pouring money into the machine.So,regardless of whomever wins, you lose. So,people should be debating wether the product they bought or the story they are reading is good or not.In this case, why having universe spinning around batman creates bad or good stories as consumers.I guess, this is my humble suggestion to take this discussion back to the creative side as a consumer.

We're talking about both, and the context of that is to say "Why this situation exists" and further "Why" we're unlikely to get a Simon Dark movie. Seeing this thread monthly pop up is a bummer in a way.
Though lets move away from the "why this is happening" because I get you, but frankly I don't lose anything by there being great and infinite batman stories. The no-so-secret belief that "Batman having things is keeping B'wanna Beast down" ...
I just don't see that as a remotely true.
Creatively...Narratively... whatever ... the truth is some of our favorite characters just don't have the universal appeal bats and supes and wonder woman has. Ymmv.

Leviathan. Mark shaw talking about how only on earth would a manhunter be no big deal... It was poignant. People didn't read that and he's not my favorite but when a b-lister gets a shot it just gets ignored.
Everyone wants the dynamic to change, but they're waiting on their favorite to get a shot. So it defaults to the core 2 1/2 characters

[Zaresh]

Just to add my piece to some previous discussion.

Superman IV is one of the worst movies I've ever watched. It also is the first movie I did watch in a theater, when I was 4 or 5. B&R was a masterpiece compared to it. Like, for real.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Most of what you have said I think is nonsense but this I do agree with.
It SHOULD BE MORE THAN THAT.

Can you actually refute anything I said? And I mean with actual evidence or examples? Especially since one of the things I said was simply that you should not call people selfish for having a different opinion than you.

But, yes, we agree that it should be more than that. So, let's both agree that the DCU should be larger than just Batman.

but its not that big a problem to them, because outside of the "safe space" of this forum enough people love batman that its a non-issue.

Again, most of the people outside this forum probably prefer Marvel because they don't know enough about DC properties outside of Batman and Superman. That is kind of the point we're addressing. That DC has allowed that to be the case by not promoting their other characters. I say this as a huge Batman fan, but I'm also a DC fan.

Well ... that's somebody's job... and thankfully not the people on this forum.
Neither you nor I seem to be qualified to do it but I at least like to acknowledge that all properties are not created equal.

Which is honestly the Crux of my feelings on the matter. Dc pours a lot into the batworld, sure.

Doesn't mean that them throwing that same energy into whatever it is you like is going to get a positive result.

It would be like me insisting that Captain Atom or Captain Triumph should be more pushed that superman... because superman "shouldn't be the most important".

Like wth "Should" is just a nonsensical and subjective thing I don't think they "should" make big changes to the strategy too much because I'm sure they know what works.

Except, we can't really say that because it's not like DC has even tried, especially in recent years, to shine the spotlight on any other property besides Batman and (occasionally) Superman. And, I feel like I've said this a million times, but I am a Batman fan. I love Batman. But, I'd like to see other things share the spotlight once in a while because too much of one thing, even if that thing is deservedly popular, leads to oversaturation and fatigue.

Also, despite the hyperbole you're using here, it's not like we're actually talking about Captain Atom or Triumph (even though Captain Atom becoming popular is not as outlandish as you think; he was one of my favorite things about Justice League Unlimited). Uh, no, I'm talking about just the other big-name DC characters like Wonder Woman, Flash, or Aquaman.

Also, do you know who was actually one of the most B-list characters as recently as the 90s? Uh, Iron Man. He was a character that was so forgotten that he didn't even make appearances in a lot of the big story arcs of the 90s, like the big DC vs. Marvel crossover, and they even attempted to make him into a teenager in the late 90s. Now Iron Man is considered one of the tentpoles of the Marvel Universe in the comics and there's rarely an event that happens without him. And I'm not saying that he didn't have a solid foundation before the movies came out, but the movies did do a lot to prove to Marvel's publishing division that he could be a big deal on the same level as Batman or Spider-Man.

So why, despite the fact that characters like Wonder Woman and Aquaman have made hundreds of millions at the box office (and in the case of the latter, billions), is it so ridiculous to you that they should maybe be given renewed focus or made the center of a universe-wide event in the comics?

If DC operated the way that Marvel did when Wonder Woman's movie came out, there would have been a prestige-format Wonder Woman mini-series, Wonder Woman would have been the star of that summer's blockbuster event, etc. Instead, they didn't really capitalize on the movie's success at all, and that summer, we got the first Dark Knights: Metal, another event centering on Batman.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Just to add my piece to some previous discussion.

Superman IV is one of the worst movies I've ever watched. It also is the first movie I did watch in a theater, when I was 4 or 5. B&R was a masterpiece compared to it. Like, for real.

Superman IV is literally made for tv garbage that looks downgraded and nonsensical in every way possible. It’s like a bad PSA commercial that Supes was licensed for

[SiegePerilous02]

Also, despite the hyperbole you're using here, it's not like we're actually talking about Captain Atom or Triumph (even though Captain Atom becoming popular is not as outlandish as you think; he was one of my favorite things about Justice League Unlimited). Uh, no, I'm talking about just the other big-name DC characters like Wonder Woman, Flash, or Aquaman.

Also, do you know who was actually one of the most B-list characters as recently as the 90s? Uh, Iron Man. He was a character that was so forgotten that he didn't even make appearances in a lot of the big story arcs of the 90s, like the big DC vs. Marvel crossover, and they even attempted to make him into a teenager in the late 90s. Now, Iron Man is considered one of the tentpoles of the Marvel Universe in the comics and there's rarely an event that happens without him. And I'm not saying that he didn't have a solid foundation before the movies came out, but the movies did do a lot to prove to Marvel's publishing division that he could be a big deal on the same level as Batman or Spider-Man.

This is a good point. Iron-Man has been around since the 60s, and he still doesn't have widely known stories or runs to speak of besides being made into an alcoholic. As far as I'm aware, he still doesn't light up the sales charts.

Yet now he's one of the most popular heroes among the mainstream, which is a far bigger deal than comic sales. DC/WB had access to far bigger and better characters that provided far more to work with and they've done next to nothing with any of them. They are only just now getting around to the non Supes-Bats members of the JL, and the efforts put into Superman aren't that impressive considering he's the granddaddy of the genre and this is the cinematic superhero boom where they are more mainstream than ever.

[Mr.B]

If most of the fans only want Batman that's all there is to it.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

If most of the fans only want Batman that's all there is to it.

It's that kind of thinking that will keep DC coming in second to Marvel. As popular as he is, there's only so much Batman an average consumer will want to buy. Meanwhile, Marvel will be offering big story arcs for Amazing Spider-Man and the X-Men, and events with the Avengers and Fantastic Four like Empyre, and big runs on Thor, Captain America, Iron Man, etc., showcasing a diverse universe that has something for everyone.

And again, I love Batman. But I'm not gonna buy 7 different Batman titles, when I can just buy one or two Batman titles and then also buy Spider-Man, the Avengers, Thor, etc. The question is, will DC put enough effort into their other IPs to make sure the other titles consumers buy are also DC characters.

People have forgotten that, in January of this year, Wonder Woman #750 was the #1 selling title, moving over 167k units. So other DC characters besides Batman can sell. It basically boils down to a real "if you build it, he will come" scenario. If DC markets them, people will want to read about their other characters.

[Zaresh]

Superman IV is literally made for tv garbage that looks downgraded and nonsensical in every way possible. It’s like a bad PSA commercial that Supes was licensed for

I've only watched a movie worse than Supes IV in my whole lifetime. And it was an actual direct to video movie. It was so bad that I can remember how bad it was despite being a child.

[Buried Alien]

SUPERMAN IV vs. BATMAN AND ROBIN for the awful movie stakes? That's a tough one. I'm going to need to think about it.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[SiegePerilous02]

SUPERMAN IV vs. BATMAN AND ROBIN for the awful movie stakes? That's a tough one. I'm going to need to think about it.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Whoever wins, we lose!

[Midnight_v]

Can you actually refute anything I said? And I mean with actual evidence or examples? Especially since one of the things I said was simply that you should not call people selfish for having a different opinion than you.

HAHAHAHAHA, you want me to refute with evidence and example about how you "Feel" about my statement?
I mean the "especially" part? That's... just, bruh.
I'm just gonna move on.
You've said a lot of things I disagree with and basically have dominated the thread with long blocks of text so, yeah I could refute points here and there but it probably not worth it as others have done so but you haven't relented any so okay. "Conceptually" dc should be more than just "batman" but the honest to god truth is... *whisper* it actually IS bigger than just batman don't let it irk you.

Also, despite the hyperbole you're using here, it's not like we're actually talking about Captain Atom or Triumph (even though Captain Atom becoming popular is not as outlandish as you think; he was one of my favorite things about Justice League Unlimited). Uh, no, I'm talking about just the other big-name DC characters like Wonder Woman, Flash, or Aquaman.

Captain atom and Captain triumph... are my personal favorites. So its not hyperbole, try not to be SO sensitive about it that you're misreading hyperbole where there is none.

I think thing Captain Atom should/could legit be bigger than Superman. I think his narrative is as good and misses a few points of interest though.
Captain triumph is a pet favorite of mine.

[The Darknight Detective]

SUPERMAN IV vs. BATMAN AND ROBIN for the awful movie stakes? That's a tough one. I'm going to need to think about it.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

The former is high-gloss crap, while the latter is merely crap.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

HAHAHAHAHA, you want me to refute with evidence and example about how you "Feel" about my statement?
I mean the "especially" part? That's... just, bruh.
I'm just gonna move on.
You've said a lot of things I disagree with and basically have dominated the thread with long blocks of text so, yeah I could refute points here and there but it probably not worth it as others have done so but you haven't relented any so okay. "Conceptually" dc should be more than just "batman" but the honest to god truth is... *whisper* it actually IS bigger than just batman don't let it irk you.

Ah, so in other words, you can't refute anything I said. That's what I'm getting from this statement. Also, most of my post really wasn't about how I "feel."

And I know that the DCU is larger than Batman. It'd just be nice if it was treated it that way.

Captain atom and Captain triumph... are my personal favorites. So its not hyperbole, try not to be SO sensitive about it that you're misreading hyperbole where there is none.

How am I being sensitive? You brought up Captain Atom and Triumph, apparently in an effort to dig up two relatively obscure characters who'd never have a chance of being as big as Batman. I said that I wasn't talking about Captain Atom or Triumph, but at the very least, the other supposed A-list characters of the DC Universe.

I think thing Captain Atom should/could legit be bigger than Superman. I think his narrative is as good and misses a few points of interest though.
Captain triumph is a pet favorite of mine.

And I love Captain Atom too. But I don't think he'd ever be bigger than Superman. Doesn't mean he shouldn't be given focus. A new title, a central role in an event, etc. Something like his Armageddon: The End miniseries would be great. But, again, the point is that DC puts too much effort into propping up the Bat-line for such a focus on B- or even other A-list characters to be feasible now.

[Zaresh]

The former is high-gloss crap, while the latter is merely crap.

Now I feel guilty for liking B&R.
I mean... Chris O'Donell then... And George Clooney... And I was this teen who liked pretty colours... And Uma Thurman was cool. It was campy as hell, it was bad, buuuuuuut...

Yeah, this is absolutely my guilty pleasure XD.