Why having the universe revolve around Batman is a problem.

[Badou]

In one book you have Batman running the Justice League and funding their entire function while fighting universe ending threats on the regular, but in another book you still have Batman running on rooftops punching street thugs. There is a massive disconnect with the character and what his purpose is, but it is at the point where it will never stop or change because the character is DC's most popular IP. They want to sell him in as many stories as they can. It's why I don't really look at Batman as a character anymore, since he doesn't really have a character anymore, but just a vehicle for creators to jump into for whatever scenario they want to write.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Agreed, Batman sucks and is overrated.

That's not at all what he's saying...

[Noodle]

My feeling has always been if Batman is the focal point of big "event" stuff like Death Metal, they need to stop with the Batman-family events like Joker War. You don't need two Batman events (in this case, both essentially being "Batman v. Joker") going on at the same time.

[Güicho]

If Flash and Green Lantern had been more popular, the universe would hinge around them (and you'd be complaining about them instead) .
As it is, it was Batman and Superman who became and have been the tent-poles (add Wonder Woman although more symbolically) of the universes' franchise.
No one ever took anything from the other characters, to the contrary, the others wouldn't stand a chance without being hinged around everything Batman and Superrman wrought.
I mean this isn't new people.
The reason people care about ________ character, is cause they are in Batman and Superman's Universe.
And most can't compete on their own.

So some think let's "fix" (the most successful) Batman, and how he's used. ....Hysterical!

[randomideaguy]

I do not like that we established Batman as able to clone himself upon death. Seems like way too much for the character.

[protege]

Its a refreshing change of pace and actually works because Batman is popular and paranoid enough to justify being everywhere and involved in everything
BWL for all the grief he gets on this forum is actually their most popular new character in forever

The fact that some on the internet don't like change is usually a sign DC is doing something good

That’s a bit of a dichotomy; batman on the obe hand, is depicted as a character who doesn’t like being invooved in the rest of the dcu, because he’s too busy protecting “ his” city, yet he’s paranoid about what else is going on so he sticks his nose in everywhere else? He’s got his own trained army of teenaged soldiers, To watch this city in his abscence, so he can involve himself in Whatever else is going on in the dcu? For a guy who sleeps during the day, he sure has a lot of time on his hands.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Here's the thing. Metal and Death Metal being essentially "Batman events" is mostly because Snyder is an absolute Batman fanboy (and I don't mean that as a negative, just as an observation). I remember I saw an interview with him years back where he basically just said that, obviously, his favorite superhero was Batman and it's basically what he read most as a kid. So, for him, the DC Universe is perceived largely through the lens of Batman.

And yes, we can obviously make the argument that DC is too reliant on Batman when it comes to their publishing slate...but its largely just about pushing what's popular. It was only about 10 years ago, right before the New 52, when the popularity of Geoff Johns's Green Lantern was reflected in pretty much everything tying into what was going on in the Green Lantern books: Sinestro Corps War, Blackest Night, Brightest Day, etc. Of course, one could say that this was a welcome respite from everything being Batman-related.

This is part of the reason why I think the mid-aughts were actually some of the best years for the DC Universe: Batman was relatively self-contained to Gotham and his world, meanwhile, we had a lot of great stuff happening in the wider DC Universe: Infinite Crisis and 52, Sinestro Corps War, Final Crisis, Blackest Night, etc. And say what you will about Identity Crisis, but at the very least, it was a Justice League story at its heart that was about the larger JLA and didn't come off as "Batman and friends." Now, of course, Batman had a part to play in those events, but he should have a part to play in the wider DC events. He's DC's most popular character.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

In one book you have Batman running the Justice League and funding their entire function while fighting universe ending threats on the regular, but in another book you still have Batman running on rooftops punching street thugs. There is a massive disconnect with the character and what his purpose is, but it is at the point where it will never stop or change because the character is DC's most popular IP. They want to sell him in as many stories as they can. It's why I don't really look at Batman as a character anymore, since he doesn't really have a character anymore, but just a vehicle for creators to jump into for whatever scenario they want to write.

I used to think quite similarly and still think that Batman is at his best when he is street-level and has his feet more on the ground than up in space. However, it's not that different than how Marvel treats Spider-Man. Yes, Peter is a street-level hero at heart, being the "Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man", but he also has a fair share of high-flying cosmic adventures:

- He's joined the Fantastic Four

- He was a part of Secret Wars

- He fights alien symbiotes on the reg and Knull, the symbiote god, is one of the most powerful beings in Marvel's cosmic landscape

- He has teamed up with his time-traveling "successor" from 2099

- He just recently stopped a city-wide invasion from Dr. Doom

- Oh and the Spider-Verse, where Spider-Man has infinite versions of himself across the multiverse, is its own franchise at this point.

So, yeah, I've decided to start looking at Batman as the Spider-Man of DC. Now, does that mean I think Batman should be the center of everything in the DC Universe? No. Not necessarily. But there might be room in the DC canon for Batman to be both street-level and have a fair share of cosmic adventures.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

The fact that Batman can work in different contexts, means he’s versatile, which is a good thing. The Bat envy is real.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

The fact that Batman can work in different contexts, means he’s versatile, which is a good thing. The Bat envy is real.

I wouldn't call it envy. It's more like...fatigue.

[Noodle]

The fact that Batman can work in different contexts, means he’s versatile, which is a good thing. The Bat envy is real.

That's not versatility. That's writing a story around a character. There's a reason one of his nicknames is the Bat-God.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Marvel always managed this better than DC.

DC fell in love with the Omega Hero, the Alpha of Alphas, from the beginning.

From 1938 thru 1988, the Omega was Superman. He got the corporate push far more than any other DC hero did, to the point of oversaturation (for that time). The Reign of Superman lasted a full 50 years.

Since 1989 thru the present day, the Omega has been Batman. He gets all the top creators wanting to work on him, and the character is explicitly made to put other DC heroes down. We are over 30 years into Batman's Reign.

Marvel didn't do it like that. Yes, Spider-Man was their face of the company and their bestseller, but he was no Omega. His status within Marvel always remained far below Captain America or Thor.

So, thanks to over-reliance on one property, DC is far behind on the rest of their stable of heroes, while Marvel has Spider-Man, the Avengers, the X-Men, and Deadpool, at the very least.

I think if DC/WB kept just the Batverse properties and sold everything else (Supes, Wondy, Aqua, GL, Flash, Justice League, Titans, Doom Patrol, Legion, New Gods, Swamp Thing, etc) to Disney or someone else, DC could still be doing OK financially.

And that's actually not good for DC.

Eh that has more to do with the MCU. When I grew up Marvel shoves Spidey and X-Men into everything they had and the main Avengers got scraps. This lasted until Marvel was gearing up for their movie universe and really had to start pushing the Avengers more.

[Dr. Ellingham]

It's both envy and fatigue, and on a deeper level - probably some cognitive dissonance due to lack of control as well. Because unless you're over 60 years old, Batman's been at the heart of DC's machinations for your whole life. Superman too.

Mathew101281 makes a valid point - Batman is a non-powered cape, and street-level is his world. But he's been teaming up with Superman since the 1950s, and started the original JLA in the 1960s. He's been dealing with universal powers and threats for our whole lives. This isn't new.

Batman and Superman are the core DC products, and it will likely stay that way. If fans are sick of that, they're sick of DC being DC - and maybe recognizing DC isn't going to change their products to match our individual expectations. Which is a bitter pill.

But so many of the topics on this forum boil down to - "This is not how I want the DCU to function. DC, please change for me."

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Here is the deal, if you all owned businesses that had a large product portfolio and one element of that portfolio was extremely popular, sold well, and was proven to increase sales in whatever product you integrated it into, most companies would just do it unless it was completely incompatible. Batman works and sells in so many books that it is stupid for them not too do it. People get into other books because Batman showed up in a cross over.


It’s just business. And quite frankly Bats has worked in JL books and big time crossovers for years at this point. And you know what, it’s not like Supes or someone else is exactly proving they can pioneer and build books and universe in that sector. So they might as well go with the heavy hand

[superduperman]

Marvel always managed this better than DC.

DC fell in love with the Omega Hero, the Alpha of Alphas, from the beginning.

From 1938 thru 1988, the Omega was Superman. He got the corporate push far more than any other DC hero did, to the point of oversaturation (for that time). The Reign of Superman lasted a full 50 years.

Since 1989 thru the present day, the Omega has been Batman. He gets all the top creators wanting to work on him, and the character is explicitly made to put other DC heroes down. We are over 30 years into Batman's Reign.

Marvel didn't do it like that. Yes, Spider-Man was their face of the company and their bestseller, but he was no Omega. His status within Marvel always remained far below Captain America or Thor.

So, thanks to over-reliance on one property, DC is far behind on the rest of their stable of heroes, while Marvel has Spider-Man, the Avengers, the X-Men, and Deadpool, at the very least.

I think if DC/WB kept just the Batverse properties and sold everything else (Supes, Wondy, Aqua, GL, Flash, Justice League, Titans, Doom Patrol, Legion, New Gods, Swamp Thing, etc) to Disney or someone else, DC could still be doing OK financially.

And that's actually not good for DC.

All of this. Others have pointed this out before but I think it bears repeating. Marvel has never had a "trinity" that their universe revolves around and everyone else has to make deference to. And I think that has helped them in a way that has hindered DC. Spiderman is the public face of Marvel but he's more of a mascot. The universe itself doesn't revolve around him. When they lost the movie license to Spiderman and the X-Men, they just bolstered the Avengers and boosted their sales. Using the success of the movies to sell them. Now, Marvel's method has it's own share of problems. If a legacy character takes over a role, that can harm the franchise but nothing at Marvel ever lasts forever.

Fictional characters are only as popular as the people who own them put into their promotion. Batman is successful because DC has chosen to promote him over everyone else. They stuck a Batman fan on a Superman movie and made it Batman with super-powers. That's not Superman's fault, and it's not really Batman's fault either. It's just a mindset that what works for Batman applies to everyone else as well. Which is incorrect. The most successful DCEU movie so far has been WW which didn't follow this model. They let an actual WW fan write her movie and let her do her own thing. If Vixen got her own show and DC went out of their way to promote Vixen, I imagine you might see a boost in Vixen action figures or Halloween costumes or whatnot. I noticed a big jump in Flash merch when the show came out. Batman is only what TPTB make him.