Why having the universe revolve around Batman is a problem.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

But: How much of that is because they haven't really given other properties the chance or the investment versus just...fate? I mean, I've talked about this before but Batman is given pretty much everything. The best up-and-coming writers, artists, multiple events and spin-off books, etc. So, what emerges is a whole chicken/egg question. Is Batman getting all of this because he's popular or is he popular because he's getting all of this? Or is it both: a circle that feeds into itself?

Either way, it does mean that other titles and characters are suffocated for the slightest investment.

But your reasoning does have a familiar ring to it. For decades, executives traditionally shunned the notion of superhero blockbusters with a female or POC lead, citing that only white male leads could be financially successful. And then, Wonder Woman and Black Panther came along and shattered that notion. So, two things from that: 1) why isn't Diana receiving a more consistent push when its proven that she has a wider appeal? And 2) is the traditional "wisdom" that only Batman is capable of selling well among DC properties another example of an outdated assumption?

I’d say next to none.


Let’s take Superman.

Geoff Johns was on and off Superman and Action Comics throughput the 2000’s writing over 30 issues. He was easily the top DC writer at the time, headed up the big crossover of the mid 2000’s and was on GL which became a flagship book. Arguably the most important DC writer of the last 20 years and he wrote a total of 4 Batman comics and Earth One in his tenure with DC.

Grant Morrison wrote All Star Superman considered arguably the greatest modern Superman comic and he was chosen to relaunch Action Comics in the New 52 getting an over a year and a half run. You could argue Grant is the only writer who even comes close to John’s for DC post 2000.

JMS who was a huge get for DC at the time was also given Superman’s main book and was also given the main Superman book (sure it wasn’t good, but they gave a prolific big time writer the book)

James Robinson has a run on the book that heralded the new Krypton storyline.

Now Bendis who was the king of Marvel is on Superman.

Scott Snyder is like the only big name DC has that hasn’t gotten some type of extensive run on the character and he did a limited series.

Superman always has multiple titles and he has a decent family of books. He almost routinely is the focal point of the Justice League and of a lot if not most crossovers. In fact Superman was the main star of Final Crisis, Infinite Crisis, and Doomsday Clock. His main villain played arguably the most important role in Forever Evil.

There is no world where Superman didn’t get every showcase, opportunity, high end creative team, or innovative direction that Batman got. In fact the biggest crossover Batman led was Dark Knights: Metal. You could argue that was the only company wide crossover where Batman was the primary focal point.

Is it really DC’s fault nothing ever sticks and Batman’s stuff is just more popular?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I’d say next to none.


Let’s take Superman.

Geoff Johns was on and off Superman and Action Comics throughput the 2000’s writing over 30 issues. He was easily the top DC writer at the time, headed up the big crossover of the mid 2000’s and was on GL which became a flagship book. Arguably the most important DC writer of the last 20 years and he wrote a total of 4 Batman comics and Earth One in his tenure with DC.

Grant Morrison wrote All Star Superman considered arguably the greatest modern Superman comic and he was chosen to relaunch Action Comics in the New 52 getting an over a year and a half run. You could argue Grant is the only writer who even comes close to John’s for DC post 2000.

JMS who was a huge get for DC at the time was also given Superman’s main book and was also given the main Superman book (sure it wasn’t good, but they gave a prolific big time writer the book)

James Robinson has a run on the book that heralded the new Krypton storyline.

Now Bendis who was the king of Marvel is on Superman.

Scott Snyder is like the only big name DC has that hasn’t gotten some type of extensive run on the character and he did a limited series.

Superman always has multiple titles and he has a decent family of books. He almost routinely is the focal point of the Justice League and of a lot if not most crossovers. In fact Superman was the main star of Final Crisis, Infinite Crisis, and Doomsday Clock. His main villain played arguably the most important role in Forever Evil.

There is no world where Superman didn’t get every showcase, opportunity, high end creative team, or innovative direction that Batman got. In fact the biggest crossover Batman led was Dark Knights: Metal. You could argue that was the only company wide crossover where Batman was the primary focal point.

Is it really DC’s fault nothing ever sticks and Batman’s stuff is just more popular?

A few problems with your argument. Geoff Johns never really had a consistent run on Superman titles. Like you said, he was on and off. He did, however, have a long and consistent run on Green Lantern, during which time Green Lantern became a best-selling title and even outsold Batman. So, yeah, proof that, with the right investment, other titles are able to rise to prominence.

The only time that Grant Morrison wrote Superman before 2011 was a miniseries, even if it was an instant classic. And his Action Comics run actually did sell very well, but was, unfortunately, part of the much-maligned New 52, during which time much of DC was subject to editorial mismanagement.

And having a few all-star writers on the title is not the same as meaningful investment when 1) at least a few of those stories aren't really considered the best and 2) DC still doesn't do much to hype those storylines. Looking at the last 10-20 years at DC, can you really say that they've hyped up what's going on in Wonder Woman's book or Superman's book or Flash's book nearly as much as they have for Batman? I mean, pretty much every arc of Snyder's Batman run was treated as its own event. The only thing that's come close was when Geoff Johns was on GL...and GL was a top 10 title every month.

But most importantly, your post boils down to: "but they also do a lot of stuff with Superman." Yes, we know they do. Superman is literally the only other character in DC's canon that has gotten a comparable amount of attention as Batman over the years, even if not as much. The point is that DC has much more to offer than just Batman and (sometimes) Superman and should do more to showcase that...

...But they can't because they're too busy giving us 80th-anniversary issues for not just Batman, but Robin, the Joker, and Catwoman too. And I'm not saying those characters shouldn't get anniversary issues, but I don't remember Lex Luthor's 80th anniversary, which was also this year, even getting a mention. Or Dr. Fate's. I mean, you know when Dr. Strange turns 50 three years from now, Marvel's gonna have a whole month of variant covers to celebrate and a special anniversary issue planned.

And no, it's nobody's "fault" that Batman's stuff is popular. But it's just smart business to invest in more than one property's popularity and to ensure a diverse slate of titles because a) there are some people who don't like Batman and b) there's always the possibility that the public will get fatigued with Batman. I'm a HUUUUUGE Batman fan, but even I can get fatigued with all the focus on him sometimes. And, honestly, part of me can't help but wonder if that was part of the appeal of the MCU in that it offered "new" heroes that most people hadn't heard of yet.

[9th.]

I'm not being 100% serious here and it's mostly just coincidence. But the character tends to be even more grim and unlikable the further away he moved from that look, and I can't stand him like that.

You're sure to find awful Bat-Dickery with that look and better written Batmen without, but that's not what I've generally experienced.

You may be on to something, I think this warrants it's own thread

[Agent Z]

Who told you that? He is more of watchmen fan. I am fairly certain if he isn't a fan most people wouldn't be superman fans.Anyways, this argument is boring and repetitive from both sides.if people don't like batman they should just stop buying his stuff.let's face it dc as cohesive universe or world is far inferior to marvel. Dc is built around characters. Marvel is built as a universe with characters, largely. It feels like a huge universe and it is a bigger universe . It's not anything new. it would take a systematical rethinking of the dc world by the management and creative from the bottom up to change that. And i don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon .

Apparently being more serious than the Reeves movies means you're just aping Batman.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

A few problems with your argument. Geoff Johns never really had a consistent run on Superman titles. Like you said, he was on and off. He did, however, have a long and consistent run on Green Lantern, during which time Green Lantern became a best-selling title and even outsold Batman. So, yeah, proof that, with the right investment, other titles are able to rise to prominence.

The only time that Grant Morrison wrote Superman before 2011 was a miniseries, even if it was an instant classic. And his Action Comics run actually did sell very well, but was, unfortunately, part of the much-maligned New 52, during which time much of DC was subject to editorial mismanagement.

And having a few all-star writers on the title is not the same as meaningful investment when 1) at least a few of those stories aren't really considered the best and 2) DC still doesn't do much to hype those storylines. Looking at the last 10-20 years at DC, can you really say that they've hyped up what's going on in Wonder Woman's book or Superman's book or Flash's book nearly as much as they have for Batman? I mean, pretty much every arc of Snyder's Batman run was treated as its own event. The only thing that's come close was when Geoff Johns was on GL...and GL was a top 10 title every month.

But most importantly, your post boils down to: "but they also do a lot of stuff with Superman." Yes, we know they do. Superman is literally the only other character in DC's canon that has gotten a comparable amount of attention as Batman over the years, even if not as much. The point is that DC has much more to offer than just Batman and (sometimes) Superman and should do more to showcase that...

...But they can't because they're too busy giving us 80th-anniversary issues for not just Batman, but Robin, the Joker, and Catwoman too. And I'm not saying those characters shouldn't get anniversary issues, but I don't remember Lex Luthor's 80th anniversary, which was also this year, even getting a mention. Or Dr. Fate's. I mean, you know when Dr. Strange turns 50 three years from now, Marvel's gonna have a whole month of variant covers to celebrate and a special anniversary issue planned.

And no, it's nobody's "fault" that Batman's stuff is popular. But it's just smart business to invest in more than one property's popularity and to ensure a diverse slate of titles because a) there are some people who don't like Batman and b) there's always the possibility that the public will get fatigued with Batman. I'm a HUUUUUGE Batman fan, but even I can get fatigued with all the focus on him sometimes. And, honestly, part of me can't help but wonder if that was part of the appeal of the MCU in that it offered "new" heroes that most people hadn't heard of yet.

Okay just to go through this. Yes John’s never had one long run on Supes. He however was on off very consistently and wrote some significant stories and a crossover that pretty much started Superman when there was a never a big effort to get him, literally the most popular writer they had, on Batman. Anyways yeah I would say every big name talent coming in is a show of effort.

But okay let’s move off Superman. Green Lantern had a run from 2004-2012/13 where John’s pretty much made it premier book. It was given two massive crossovers, many would argue Bkackest Night was probably the most hyped crossover since the original Crisis, and GL always has multiple books and now Morrison is being given it to have a run. They clearly invested in that character and it showed.

Wonder Woman they made a big deal having Gail Simone on her, they had JMS in an extremely hyped run. And Azzarello was givzen the reign to pretty much define her and create a solid mythology for her when the new 52 started. They also had her paired with Superman as an additional way to generate more interest. Also got multiple books at points. That is investment in a character.

Aquaman. Okay let’s start with the fact that he’s always been sort of a joke character and was sidelined dear a lot of the 2000’s. When he was brought back, Johns had a two year run on him and he was given big storylines that are currently some of his most notable.


Sorry it’s just the stuff for Bats and Green Lantern took and Superman and Wonder Woman didn’t. And quite frankly a lot of that is that those particular fanbases are very divided on what they want out of the characters.


It’s just smart business for DC to push Batman when he can support multiple titles and people will read other books for him. Like I said in another post, if everyone here owned a company and one product/feature of a product just priced over and over again, most people would want to incorporate that into as much as they could. That’s just maximizing profits.

And as much as we can praise Marvel, the first Superhero films crossing a billion dollars was Batman over a decade ago. Marvel proved its branding more than anything else. DC also tried to start with Green Lantern and it got a poor reception. Then they shifted to Superman and it got a mixed reception. So they went to Batman and it at least took a franchise that was having trouble getting off the ground and gave it a kickstart even if everyone wasn’t crazy about it.

Like I really don’t know what to say besides Batman has just consistently proven it’s a powerhouse IP that the public loves to eat up

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Who told you that? He is more of watchmen fan. I am fairly certain if he isn't a fan most people wouldn't be superman fans.Anyways, this argument is boring and repetitive from both sides.if people don't like batman they should just stop buying his stuff.let's face it dc as cohesive universe or world is far inferior to marvel. Dc is built around characters. Marvel is built as a universe with characters, largely. It feels like a huge universe and it is a bigger universe . It's not anything new. it would take a systematical rethinking of the dc world by the management and creative from the bottom up to change that. And i don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon .

This is something a lot of fans miss btw. Marvel was always set up as one cohesive universe where characters went in and out of each other’s stories. It wasn’t uncommon for Spider-Man to crossover with the fantastic four or or for Hulk to fight an X-Men even very early on. Also villains were used across titles and most heroes were based in the same city. DC was typically every character having its own thing going on in a separate city and then when they eventually did a team up book it was its own isolated thing. It wasn’t until much later on where they tried to be more cohesive like Marvel, but DC just works better with characters in their silos unless you specifically write a big universe team up or have a specific concept to team them up (Batman and Superman for instance)

The truth is the Marvel universe as a whole props up a lot of characters that are kind of lacking if you strip them down to just exclusively their own book original concepts. Spider-Man and X-Men are the two biggest that buck the trend and until the MCU they were the most popular IP’s Marvel had (hence why people paid to make films of them).

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Okay just to go through this. Yes John’s never had one long run on Supes. He however was on off very consistently and wrote some significant stories and a crossover that pretty much started Superman when there was a never a big effort to get him, literally the most popular writer they had, on Batman. Anyways yeah I would say every big name talent coming in is a show of effort.

Again, did they out some big writers on Superman? Yes. But a) they keep shoveling more big-name talent onto Batman and Batman titles and b) they still don't give as much attention to other characters' titles and lore as they do to Batman. Again, we got not just one but three 80th anniversary issues celebrating Batman characters (Robin, Joker, Catwoman). Meanwhile, Lex also debuted in 1940 so this is his 80th year too. Where's his anniversary issue? Last year was Supergirl's 60th anniversary. Where was her celebratory issue?

Did we get one for Lois Lane two years ago? How about Jimmy Olsen?

So, you see, its about perpetuating the atmosphere that says this: every single piece of the Batman mythos is important and iconic in its own right and deserves to be celebrated as such, whereas for other characters...meh, even where those characters have proven themselves very important to the larger DC canon.

But okay let’s move off Superman. Green Lantern had a run from 2004-2012/13 where John’s pretty much made it premier book. It was given two massive crossovers, many would argue Bkackest Night was probably the most hyped crossover since the original Crisis, and GL always has multiple books and now Morrison is being given it to have a run. They clearly invested in that character and it showed.

Yes, Green Lantern was a very big title...when they were hyping it. Not long after Johns left though, they cut it from like four titles to one. And now, that title that doesn't even come out regularly like their other books. Like, the Green Lantern anniversary issue (which grouped all the Green Lanterns into one issue, even though they're all unique characters) was the first I've seen of Hal in months.

Wonder Woman they made a big deal having Gail Simone on her, they had JMS in an extremely hyped run. And Azzarello was givzen the reign to pretty much define her and create a solid mythology for her when the new 52 started. They also had her paired with Superman as an additional way to generate more interest. Also got multiple books at points. That is investment in a character.

It might be the passing of time, but I honestly don't remember those runs really getting any fanfare. And your second sentence kind of proves the point. Wonder Woman didn't need Azzarello to "create" a mythology for her. She already had one. But, for some reason, they seem to think that they have to reinvent the wheel with Diana every few years because they don't have faith in what's already there. On top of that, putting her with Superman to "generate" more interest was not something I'd say was a good thing, since it meant that DC didn't care about their individual continuity enough to maintain Superman's marriage to Lois or anything. But, ya know...

Also, can you remind me of the last time a Wonder Woman character was given any sort of prominence in a major event? Like, honestly. When was the last time we had an event with Cheetah at the center of it all? Or Ares? I mean, never mind that one of Diana's main villains is the literal god of war and should theoretically be a cosmic-level threat to the whole DCU. Nah...let's do a Joker dragon and a Jokerized version of Bruce instead...

And again, not bashing the Joker dragon. I thought that was dope as heck. Nor am I bashing Batman Who Laughs. I actually find him quite interesting. BUT, it would be nice if, once in a while, DC actually let another hero's villains be the center of something for once, aside from Darkseid that is.

Aquaman. Okay let’s start with the fact that he’s always been sort of a joke character and was sidelined dear a lot of the 2000’s. When he was brought back, Johns had a two year run on him and he was given big storylines that are currently some of his most notable.

And again, what did they do once Geoff left? Weren't we promised a Seven Seas event that was delayed for essentially years if it ever really came out at all? You can't just stick a big name creator on a title and say "here" and then once they leave throw away their contributions when the next writer comes on.

Sorry it’s just the stuff for Bats and Green Lantern took and Superman and Wonder Woman didn’t. And quite frankly a lot of that is that those particular fanbases are very divided on what they want out of the characters.

Actually a lot of that is because of the apparent inability to stick to a concrete direction for said characters. They keep letting pretty much every Wonder Woman writer throw away the things that the previous writers contributed. I mean, Azzarello got rid of a lot of the stuff that had defined Diana for decades. The only writers in the past 15 years who ever really seemed to get Diana were Gail Simone and Greg Rucka and, uh, yeah, I can't say they treated those guys especially well.

They completely rebooted Superman for the New 52, getting rid of a large chunk of his mythos and supporting cast in the process. But that's starting to veer into different territory. The point is: they'd likely never completely reboot Damian Wayne or Dick Grayson, but Kara, Donna Troy, Cassie Sandsmark, and Conner Kent? Yeah, we can just erase them from continuity completely, no big deal.

It’s just smart business for DC to push Batman when he can support multiple titles and people will read other books for him. Like I said in another post, if everyone here owned a company and one product/feature of a product just priced over and over again, most people would want to incorporate that into as much as they could. That’s just maximizing profits.

Except that's not nearly the only way to run a successful business. There's a reason why diversification is an established business model and why there's even just the common proverb "don't put all your eggs in one basket." DC, a lot of the time, puts all their eggs in the Batman basket.

And as much as we can praise Marvel, the first Superhero films crossing a billion dollars was Batman over a decade ago. Marvel proved its branding more than anything else. DC also tried to start with Green Lantern and it got a poor reception. Then they shifted to Superman and it got a mixed reception. So they went to Batman and it at least took a franchise that was having trouble getting off the ground and gave it a kickstart even if everyone wasn’t crazy about it.

Like I really don’t know what to say besides Batman has just consistently proven it’s a powerhouse IP that the public loves to eat up

Wait, don't you mean they finally turned to Wonder Woman and Aquaman? I mean, Wonder Woman is the movie that pretty everyone fell in love with and got people on the DCEU's side. And Aquaman is currently the highest-grossing film based on any DC character, including the Nolan Batman trilogy.

[Steel Inquisitor]

This is something a lot of fans miss btw. Marvel was always set up as one cohesive universe where characters went in and out of each other’s stories. It wasn’t uncommon for Spider-Man to crossover with the fantastic four or or for Hulk to fight an X-Men even very early on. Also villains were used across titles and most heroes were based in the same city. DC was typically every character having its own thing going on in a separate city and then when they eventually did a team up book it was its own isolated thing. It wasn’t until much later on where they tried to be more cohesive like Marvel, but DC just works better with characters in their silos unless you specifically write a big universe team up or have a specific concept to team them up (Batman and Superman for instance)

DC may not have done this first but they caught up eventually and they've been identical with these practices for longer than most of us have been alive, they even use the same talent pool. There's also the various team titles which have various characters from numerous titles in a single group, like JSA and Justice League. The only thing hampered ing DC lately is because the editors have problems keeping continuity straight and wanting more than one canon to be active at once - like with Legion. Marvel gets over this by adjusting the time line and trying not to be too self ware with canon to avoid a 5G.

The truth is the Marvel universe as a whole props up a lot of characters that are kind of lacking if you strip them down to just exclusively their own book original concepts. Spider-Man and X-Men are the two biggest that buck the trend and until the MCU they were the most popular IP’s Marvel had (hence why people paid to make films of them).

Both those franchises get very complicated very fast, and X-men has a Game of Throne cast which keeps growing. They're not unlike DC's Batman and Superman comic lines. Marvel did a massive reboot of its X-men concept recently which decontructs everything like Superior Spider-man. Written by a huge DC fanboy.

[manwhohaseverything]

From my knowledge,Marvel as a universe and as a Structure was built by ditko, lee and kirby. DC never had a stewards with a cohesive vision like that. Except for kirby's fourth world which was added on and separate from dc in a sense. They would have to break the universe, rethink many characters entirely and actually world build. if they hope to be something like marvel universe. I don't think dc is planning to innovate that way. They like batman as the only wishfulfilment character and people do buy into his stuff.

As for superman, the character's problem is simple. Idiotic dogma, drama and essays being shoved down as great storytelling. Superman fans are reluctant for any changes in character. Heck! They wouldn't even except siegel and shuster's superman. The character has nothing to offer, other than stupid messiah nonsense, drama and idiotic love story between same woman ane man. God forbid! Superman has to make real choices, look badass or fights for those who can't fight for themselves without feeling out of touch or like royalty. There is nothing superman can offer me that i can't get anywhere else.Infact, i find better alternatives most of the time. Heck! People have started saying **** like all might is a better superman. It's really a shame considering these are modelled after superman. The only way i see superman getting any better is if they rethink the character as not a "superhero" and "flying paragon". That interpretation has overstayed its existence. He is a freaking alien vigilante who hides among people by being a fraud and beats up bullies. People read superman like bible or quran or whatever. That's the mindset. Pa kent can't do this. Ma can't do that. Jor el is a paragon. Superman can't kill. Blah! Blah!Blah!

[The True Detective]

Do you guys draw straws to see who gets to start the monthly "Batman is overexposed" thread?

I swear there's a new thread like this what feels like every week, when does it become beating a dead horse? We get it, the majority of you think DC relies too heavily on Batman to the detriment of other characters. No offense but this is like making a thread about how awful Batman & Robin, Catwoman, Green Lantern were.

Clearly neither side is going to change their minds, those who think DC uses him too much will continue to do so until they see some sort of change that's satisfactory to them. And people who think the way DC pushes him is smart business because of his popularity aren't going to change their stances either.

[Restingvoice]

Please keep in mind that the reason the comic DCU becomes so Batman centric is because the writer hits gold when he wrote Batman that he kept going up.

Although Johns hit gold on Green Lantern but didn't make him the hero of the universe, even though he made Hal the main character of Justice League Origin, and instead focus it back on Superman

Same with Morrison, who also defined Batman for his time but still focused on general DCU when it comes to generald DCU and created Multiversity

So I guess my conclusion is, if you're a DC writer, git gud at whatever you're writing and be fair once you get to the top

[Midnight_v]

...irritating in a way this perpetual thread.
So lets tell some truths.

Truth #1 Batman's popularity isn't keeping your favorite from getting their shine. If he was gone your favorite wouldn't suddenly get the accumulated estats properties and followers of the bat world.
They wouldn't have that shine even if there was NEVER a Batman. People keep saying "at the expense of other characters" but it really isn't that they're not getting pushed because of the bat

they're not getting pushed because...

#2 ...few writers join comics to write Paste-Pot-Pete.
This is a "built on for years thing" but realistically most people who write comics don't want to write a character that has little traction or that no one has heard of... they want to become steward of a successful franchise.

There are exceptions to this. . . like Alan Moore... but even he did superman etc.

3. When events like... Leviathan or what have you occur they don't get as much fan support or attention as the "We are all batman" or "Superman is the center of everything book"
When the fans don't support the things that could move the pillars expect no change to occur then.

4. A event with your favorite let say... Vixen for example... is harder to sell, takes more investment, and is more likely to fail. Doesn't make business sense.

[Aahz]

Yes, Green Lantern was a very big title...when they were hyping it. Not long after Johns left though, they cut it from like four titles to one.

IIRC because without Johns sales went down again.

[Steel Inquisitor]

From my knowledge,Marvel as a universe and as a Structure was built by ditko, lee and kirby. DC never had a stewards with a cohesive vision like that. Except for kirby's fourth world which was added on and separate from dc in a sense. They would have to break the universe, rethink many characters entirely and actually world build. if they hope to be something like marvel universe. I don't think dc is planning to innovate that way. They like batman as the only wishfulfilment character and people do buy into his stuff.

Marvel did start like that but it's grown so far into its own universe and inspired how DC does things so everything fits. Both universes are fine, have you read Morrison's JLA or Johns and Goyer's JSA?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

IIRC because without Johns sales went down again.

Of course, they did. He was the star writer so obviously when he left, some of his following would also leave. The point is that, instead of really putting in an effort to increase the sales and build the franchise, they decided that it meant that the GL franchise couldn't sustain itself without Johns, even though it had a large fanbase. Meanwhile, there were several Bat-family titles like Catwoman and Red Hood that were selling at the same level that they didn't cancel or have continuously relaunched in an effort to increase their sales.

In other words, they're more willing to give Batman and Bat-family titles some slack even where they're underperforming, but other properties aren't given the same luxury because they're not viewed as "essential" to DC's business. That's a mistake.