Which two Fantastic Four members lives will be forever changed?

[Oberon]

I said that too. But I think there is other stuff beside poly that may be a sliding/alt perspective.

[Oberon]

The fact that this is the only consistent conversation people have about Sue shows Marvel's failure and incompetence with utilizing the character.

Believe it or not, I'm not interested in all those what if stories with Sue with Logan, Black Bolt, Doom, Havoc, etc.

I'm just intrigued with the stuff between Sue and Namor; it transcends 'sexual' for me, it seems deeper.

[Crimz]

My backup choice is Johnny comes out.

[Crimz]

Believe it or not, I'm not interested in all those what if stories with Sue with Logan, Black Bolt, Doom, Havoc, etc.

I'm just intrigued with the stuff between Sue and Namor; it transcends 'sexual' for me, it seems deeper.

To Me, Sue and Namor represents how writers don't have a clue how to write Sue/don't care. They fall back on that tired plot instead of doing anything new to develop the character. Sue has grown past Namor decades ago and their relationship being platonic is much more interesting and shows how much the characters have grown. Trying to make it romantic or sexual is lazy imo.

Sue being one if the few people Namor respects is much better than him throwing himself at her every 10 minutes.

[Digifiend]

Plus Reed could give the boy an image inducer.

His name is Jo-Venn.

[Oberon]

I know a lot of platonic relationships that have some shades of sensuality. We just come from different eras or times. I don't think it is a shame for anyone to be interested in some one else. To me, marriage is mostly a societal creation to reign in what seems to be natural. That is why soap operas are / have been mostly so popular. Now a days, with younger folks eschewing all the moralisms of anti LBGQ, etc, trans/phobia, etc, this is just really seems misplaced.

I get it, you'd rather have stories where Sue and the others are just heroes, scientists, explorers, etc. But I've always seen this side of the comics; the relationships, the back and forth with all of that. It is indeed a valuable or necessary part of the stories.

So my view is that Sue is not playing around with Reed, loyal, etc. but resonates sensually to him, because, after all, he is Namor.

i wouldn't mind horribly if Sue and Namor did eventually have an affair. It would ruin nothing for me, because to me

I've always seen that as potential of her character, her feelings.

I tend to think that she won't ever, but the dangling hook of this, seems to be more intended for readers like me.

I get you don't want it, but this is a discussion forum. I'll just pop back out, like I usually do. I almost always respond just to what it seems like others agree or see that seems similar.

[Crimz]

I know a lot of platonic relationships that have some shades of sensuality. We just come from different eras or times. I don't think it is a shame for anyone to be interested in some one else. To me, marriage is mostly a societal creation to reign in what seems to be natural. That is why soap operas are / have been mostly so popular. Now a days, with younger folks eschewing all the moralisms of anti LBGQ, etc, trans/phobia, etc, this is just really seems misplaced.

I get it, you'd rather have stories where Sue and the others are just heroes, scientists, explorers, etc. But I've always seen this side of the comics; the relationships, the back and forth with all of that. It is indeed a valuable or necessary part of the stories.

So my view is that Sue is not playing around with Reed, loyal, etc. but resonates sensually to him, because, after all, he is Namor.

i wouldn't mind horribly if Sue and Namor did eventually have an affair. It would ruin nothing for me, because to me

I've always seen that as potential of her character, her feelings.

I tend to think that she won't ever, but the dangling hook of this, seems to be more intended for readers like me.

I get you don't want it, but this is a discussion forum. I'll just pop back out, like I usually do. I almost always respond just to what it seems like others agree or see that seems similar.

Of course married couples think of other people, they're married not dead. My problem is that the Sue/ Namor thing is the only consistent story she gets. The character has been around for nearly 60 years and yet is still very underdeveloped, she got her first mini only last year. It's just frustrating to see a character with so much potential reduced to the same thing over and over again. Especially when there are many aspects of the character in need of development.

[Oberon]

I hear you. I mostly see that with a lot of female characters. Why did the original idea of Jean Grey as Phoenix have cosmic suicide?

I don't really feel that any of the other characters are so much better in that department.

They're archetypes to me, this is a core thing for me, and informs my feelings. Besides being the obvious 4 magical elements of the world, they each have other archetypes.

I admit that I mostly like Sue as I understand these concepts for 'me'.

But i've always enjoyed whatever stories or guest appearances she's had over the years. She had the part in a Captain Universe story some 10 years ago and I thought she was rather cosmic, beyond her own abilities.

Could it be that if Sue were portrayed as the end all be all, eventually this would demand a Phoenix/Moondragon (toooo arrogant, which I never believed, btw) and certainly a number of female characters with great powers or presence.

Blame the gosh darn writers, which you do, but that is what it is. They can't see anything beyond what they're doing.

So I agree with you, mostly, but I like Sue being 'alive' not just married, as you say. I've said this before, but I see their friendship as transcendent. She is possibly the real one human who stands in, as "the human race" to him. The conscience of the collective of earth. Not the haters, but the good people. Cap or Hammond may be incredible close friends or bonds with Namor (unless . . . recently) but Sue means more than that.

we just don't see the importance of that in the same way. By all means I would want bigger and better adventures for Sue.

[markhyperion]

Here is my thing, and I've said it before. The Namor and Sue relationship was interesting as a thing in the past. I agree they've both moved past it. From a character writing perspective it doesn't do much for either character. In fact, it sidelines them both.

I would make the claim that no one has ever really known what to do with Namor either. Byrne had a comic that lasted with him. One in the 90s . But other than that, he is always just added to teams like Xmen or Avengers to shake things up. Sometimes he's evil again. Why not.He is a tremendously liked character and has a lot of interesting potential that has never been realized.

You want to see Sue and Namor . But you dont want it to last more than one issue. Because there isnt anywhere to take it.

Unless it's like some game of thrones thing with sue and Namor representing atlantis. .

I would almost bet anyone that a book featuring Namor and sue would be cancelled in two issues

[Marvel Forever]

Here is my thing, and I've said it before. The Namor and Sue relationship was interesting as a thing in the past. I agree they've both moved past it. From a character writing perspective it doesn't do much for either character. In fact, it sidelines them both.

I would make the claim that no one has ever really known what to do with Namor either. Byrne had a comic that lasted with him. One in the 90s . But other than that, he is always just added to teams like Xmen or Avengers to shake things up. Sometimes he's evil again. Why not.He is a tremendously liked character and has a lot of interesting potential that has never been realized.

You want to see Sue and Namor . But you dont want it to last more than one issue. Because there isnt anywhere to take it.

Unless it's like some game of thrones thing with sue and Namor representing atlantis. .

I would almost bet anyone that a book featuring Namor and sue would be cancelled in two issues

The only realistic way for a Namor-Sue relationship to have a chance would be if it is shown that Reed had an affair with either Medusa or Alyssa Moy, back when Reed and Sue were separated in the mid 1970's, and that Reed fathered a child from said relationship. I have been pushing for this scenario to happen for probably 8 years now. Few of us here want Sue to suddenly be unfaithful to Reed. I certainly would never favor such a move. I only want Sue to leave Reed, if it is shown that Reed was unfaithful to her during their separation, and that he fathered a child from said affair. The concept of a child is critical to this plan of mine, as it would make it much more difficult for Sue to overlook Reed's unfaithfulness.

[Oberon]

You're right. These memes, tropes or ideas are not long-lasting. They could be, with MUCH work, but the result would be fan backlash.

I prefer a mature interpretation of their past/present, that could give some nods to the almost naughty thing - but are not the point. I think that is all I want. They all had a history and I don't know that pretending it didn't happen changes anything.

For what it is worth, this is how I look at the Hank Pym problem. No one, mostly, can ever get over the one time he slapped Jan. Some things can't be forgotten, so it is best to find a mature way to give it context.

Let me be clear:

No Sue breaking up with Reed because ____ reasons.

No Namor ultra-flirting/suggestive with Sue

Yes, some amount of relevant affection, without Reed going Alpha - even outside of the poly community folks I know, no one goes that alpha because an ex stroked someone's hair or cheek, so why should Reed?

Yes, to exploring more of Reed and Sue and what does appear to be their dynamic; he seems to ignore all of them for science. Either this is his archetype as Sue and the others have their own, or it should also move on. After all this time. *** As far as the latest FF volume, I'm not really loving or hating it.

[Oberon]

This seems to manufactured to get the story you want; Sue leaving Reed and going to Namor. Even if this story could be true

and I don't believe that Reed is portrayed this way ever. I don't think he was interested in Medusa and after all, she was pretty faithful to BB at that time. I know it was retconned, the Alyssa MOY stuff, but again, just to give color to a rather colorless character. Reed is too bland to have an affair.

Reed, even if somehow seduced, would be too responsible to not use protection or be concerned over the possibility of child birth. I really don't see this.

The only realistic way that Sue would ever go to someone else, Namor or whoever, would be if Reed died and this was an Uncle Ben death. And it would still take a pretty long time, if only in 'canon' somehow ( "Five Years later" type of story)

[jwatson]

Johnny and Ben, both of their ladies end up pregnant at the same time.

[jwatson]

The fact that this is the only consistent conversation people have about Sue shows Marvel's failure and incompetence with utilizing the character.

Her series was REALLY good imo. I would love to see more of her working as a spy. her powers are beyond perfect for it.

[Oberon]

The series was really good and presented some new ideas about her powers.

"For an archetype" she sure has some interesting innovations. That is a cool thing about Sue, always, her power only has limits per a writer's awareness.