Which two Fantastic Four members lives will be forever changed?

[markhyperion]

I take the traditionalist stand with Sue. I see her as being able to ground Doom. I truly believe he sees this too, which is why he chose an alternate reality Sue for a consort. I don't think it was to spite a dead and forgotten Reed. But the time for this was wayyy back in the sixties whn Sue could be thought of as a prize to be won. Her relationship with Namor is much more about her than Reed and a Sue/Doom pairing is so full of Reed.

Reed/Medusa I don't see. Reed really hasn't had eyes for anyone since he and Sue got together. Sure, there was Alyssa Moy, but nothing from Reed has shown he'd be interested in anyone else even if the marriage were to end for whatever reason.

The concept of Doom and Sue together is one of many ideas that I bounced off the FF Bullpen 4-5 years ago. I am not sure how it would be accepted, but it is an interesting idea. My main desire is to see some change in the Reed-Sue marriage, be it just a separation or an eventual divorce, though I am uncertain how I feel about a divorce. It would be most enjoyable to see Reed with Medusa for a while and Sue with Namor, especially if Medusa returns and shows Reed their love child from the 1970's.....

I don't think that the Doom thing is such a problem that could have only worked when Sue was a damsel in the 6os. Secret wars showed it and it wasn't only about Reed.

The problem with Namor being with Sue is the same overall problem writres have had with FF. Let me explain

In sixties a family of heroes having real world issue and fighting villains across universe was brand new. Today it's not and its nor that interesting. It isnt the characters, or the writing, it's that the ff family dynamic isnt easy to write engaging stories anymore.

Which is same thing with the Sue and Namor arc. It isnt interesting. Would anyone read a comic with those two? What would it even entail? It's a nice little love triangle to create tension is all. Even that is boring today.

Let me spell it out. Namor and Sue is a boring result with no payoff unless it's to have them ride off into sunset and never return expect for occasionally guest spots. It essentially kills both characters for any momentum.

Doom and Sue does the opposite. It makes them both engaging and interesting and the overall dynamic of Doom, Sue, Val and Frank. As well as how Johnny and Ben would deal.

I'd imagine Reed does something, but I doubt its involving medusa.

And I'm a FF traditionalist too. It's taken me a long long time to get to this point. I just dont think it will remain if it doesnt drastically change. I dont want FF to go away again.

Namor and Sue is like putting a nail in that coffin. More so than her staying with Reed

[Crimz]

Sue leaving Reed for Doom or Namor does not benefit her character at all. All she's be doing is being their emotional caretaker trying to keep them on a moral path. She already does that for Reed. That alt reality Sue in Secret Ward did that and she has no character because all she was was a trophy that Reed fought Doom over. And that's all she's be if 616 Sue left Reed for either of them.

What Sue needs is to develop as an individual, something that can be done while married to Reed or alone. Having her leave him for someone else is cheap drama that benefits neither character in the long run.

A way to create drama as well as benefit the character would be to have her be the leader. Reed would pretend to be ok with it for her dale but would unintentionally undermine her often, creating tension. Sue would have a proactive role instead of reactive, and it could change the family dynamic as well because she could have less time to look after the kids which would mean Reed can't lock himself away in his lab for days anymore. That would also create tension as he'd likely not be pleased with that.

[phantom1592]

Have they ever killed off Sue before? I know there have been MULTIPLE times that Reed has been 'killed'... and Johnny died not that long ago. But I don't remember them ever actually killing Sue or Ben before. Ben gets depowered or stays on Battleworld or goes off on solo adventures... but Sue's generally left alone except for the occassional costume change.

Not that I think they will. Honestly the idea of screwing over ANY of the four after how long they've been gone is just silly. Let's get to know them and actually have FUN with the main group and play around with the status quo before the need to 'shake things up forever!!!'

I'm pretty sure it'll be Ben and alicia adopting the kids. 1) The idea of 'winning them and owning them' is pretty distasteful, so they'll go for some kind of more established family orientated thing.... 2) Now there will be '4' kids in the family group for any potential future 'fantastic four' stories they can play with.

But yeah, I've been hit and miss over the decades. Have they ever done any major shake ups that involved Sue dying? The closest I rememeber is that Death in the Family one-shot about a sue in an alternate universe dying...

[Crimz]

Also, Sue hates Doom. He's the man that has tormented her and her family for years and for no reason. She has made it apparent that she is not fond of the man. That's why that relationship only happens in alt realities, it's for shock value because in 616 it makes zero sense. If anything, it makes more sense for Reed to leav[QUOTE=phantom1592;5064870]Have they ever killed off Sue before? I know there have been MULTIPLE times that Reed has been 'killed'... and Johnny died not that long ago. But I don't remember them ever actually killing Sue or Ben before. Ben gets depowered or stays on Battleworld or goes off on solo adventures... but Sue's generally left alone except for the occassional costume change.

Have they ever killed off Sue before? I know there have been MULTIPLE times that Reed has been 'killed'... and Johnny died not that long ago. But I don't remember them ever actually killing Sue or Ben before. Ben gets depowered or stays on Battleworld or goes off on solo adventures... but Sue's generally left alone except for the occassional costume change.

Not that I think they will. Honestly the idea of screwing over ANY of the four after how long they've been gone is just silly. Let's get to know them and actually have FUN with the main group and play around with the status quo before the need to 'shake things up forever!!!'

I'm pretty sure it'll be Ben and alicia adopting the kids. 1) The idea of 'winning them and owning them' is pretty distasteful, so they'll go for some kind of more established family orientated thing.... 2) Now there will be '4' kids in the family group for any potential future 'fantastic four' stories they can play with.

But yeah, I've been hit and miss over the decades. Have they ever done any major shake ups that involved Sue dying? The closest I rememeber is that Death in the Family one-shot about a sue in an alternate universe dying...

Sue has never died outside of the Secret Wars story where practically everyone died. It's likely because it's a bad look to have your only female lead die. So they found other ways to take her out of the picture when they wanted to. I'd prefer her leaving temporarily than dying because that gives the opportunity for her to appear in other books. She'd benefit greatly being on a team that's nothing to do with her family and isn't those occasions when Marvel makes an all-female team (that shouldn't be the only time she's considered to be on a different team).
Death just sends the character to limbo, for however long the writer has it, and is a waste.

[Keyotheseasons]

Do I think the book could use a bit of a shake up? Definitely. But I don't want to see it at the expense of Marvel's longest running relationship. I am still convinced you can have Sue grow as a character while being happily married.

I don't know how the books are doing in terms of sales but I highly doubt the book would go away even if it were to sell poorly, especially with Marvel Studios having already mentioned them for a future movie. If the sales do badly they will do what they have been doing with Captain Marvel and other titles for years- relaunch with a new number 1 every few years.

Now that Marvel/Disney owns the rights to the Fantastic Four completely I would be very surprised to see a cancellation. Also, let's not forget that they just put one of their best artists on the title. That doesn't read to me as a sign of any impending doom (no pun intended).

[Digifiend]

Reed and Sue is the third oldest still ongoing romance in superhero comics, right? After Clark and Lois, and Barry and Iris. And the oldest marriage, as both Clark and Barry took decades to get a ring on their ladies' fingers, Reed did it in only a few years.

[Oberon]

I have actually discussed this in other forums. I hate to admit it but the dynamic of Sue with Doom, trying to keep him grounded, human etc. is far more interesting now to me than Sue/Reed status quo.

I know it's a hated idea but it's been visited as a future time and again. And Secret Wars shows it can be done without being too creepy.

I dont know. The idea of Doom leading some version of FF with Sue is interesting.

Let's face it. SOMETHING drastic needs to happen or it will get shelved again

I'm an older, classic fan, but I've never stopped reading the FF. I remember when the Overmind (who may or may not come from some other source of Eternals or similar) had taken over Reed and Sue turned to Dr. Doom to lead the FF. Was that vol. 1 # 113, classic Buscema art. One of my favorites! Sue, guided by a vision from Agatha Harkness, goes to Doom.

** beyond that, maybe I'm confused, but i always thought that first iteration of a child Valeria present in the FF's life, Claremont's run way back, . . . . The was Reed, trapped in Doom's armor. Reed was always the father of Valeria. No ?

[Oberon]

I take the traditionalist stand with Sue. I see her as being able to ground Doom. I truly believe he sees this too, which is why he chose an alternate reality Sue for a consort. I don't think it was to spite a dead and forgotten Reed. But the time for this was wayyy back in the sixties whn Sue could be thought of as a prize to be won. Her relationship with Namor is much more about her than Reed and a Sue/Doom pairing is so full of Reed.

Reed/Medusa I don't see. Reed really hasn't had eyes for anyone since he and Sue got together. Sure, there was Alyssa Moy, but nothing from Reed has shown he'd be interested in anyone else even if the marriage were to end for whatever reason.

I'm of the boomer/'60s era. The idea of Sue being interested in another partner is almost hard-wired, lol, but the whole 'Namor' cheapens Sue or whatever, is harsh for me.

I tend to see Sue in a very symbolic way. She is a sort of modern version of Betty Dean, she is a sort of humanity's conscience/proxy. Not just with Namor, and maybe not as some 'constant' part of her, shows up a little more subtle. The gentling effect that she has had on Dragon Man, when he was controlled by Diablo, or any number of other times where her presence seems to be *our* proxy, in a way.

Maybe not many of us feel that way. But this is the reason why she ends up being used in alternate stories where she is a villain. She is a consort and possible equal to Doom, or Namor. Sue is very symbolic of things that men and women might relate to but in subtle, or subconscious ways. Namor has called her (long ago) the symbolic best of humanity. I think Cap sees that in Sue and vice a versa.

Now there is a thought, but isn't there an alt or What if where Sue and Steve become closer? See what I mean. Sue can work on different levels than a number of other female characters. A projection of a more quiet strength. Invisible almost.

[Oberon]

Totally, Sue and Reed are soulmates considering they're Marvel's longest lasting couple. I want Sue to get some character growth/development and think it can be done while she is still married to Reed, she just needs to get some alone time or join another team, either way I think she's consistently a damn good wife to Reed and mother to the rest of the FF.

I happily settle for this / main version of Sue being Reed's soul mate. I don't think that belies a mothering, semi-sensual facet to her character. One of my most endearing scenes is when the 3 rescued Sue and the just-a-birthing Franklin and she said "Come in Reed, come in and meet your son". Just beautiful.

I like this aspect of Sue and want to see that more with her other newer teams and appearances.

[pageturner]

hard to believe anything is forever

[Marvel Forever]

I'm of the boomer/'60s era. The idea of Sue being interested in another partner is almost hard-wired, lol, but the whole 'Namor' cheapens Sue or whatever, is harsh for me.

I tend to see Sue in a very symbolic way. She is a sort of modern version of Betty Dean, she is a sort of humanity's conscience/proxy. Not just with Namor, and maybe not as some 'constant' part of her, shows up a little more subtle. The gentling effect that she has had on Dragon Man, when he was controlled by Diablo, or any number of other times where her presence seems to be *our* proxy, in a way.

Maybe not many of us feel that way. But this is the reason why she ends up being used in alternate stories where she is a villain. She is a consort and possible equal to Doom, or Namor. Sue is very symbolic of things that men and women might relate to but in subtle, or subconscious ways. Namor has called her (long ago) the symbolic best of humanity. I think Cap sees that in Sue and vice a versa.

Now there is a thought, but isn't there an alt or What if where Sue and Steve become closer? See what I mean. Sue can work on different levels than a number of other female characters. A projection of a more quiet strength. Invisible almost.

I have two main complaints about the Byrne storyline and one of them is when he turned Sue evil.

[Oberon]

I dug that story, if only because it showed how easy it was to mop the floor with the rest of the FF.

But I think the ending and solution was not the right one, rather with Defalco's run and the Infinity tie in during that ( I really loved Sue NOT backing down from a squabble with the Hulk! ) she was more controlled by some other entity. I am trying to remember her more recent re appearance, Malice, in the red costume era and I think it is sort of both, an aspect and something else. Someone else can set me right on any of this.

So, can I guess that the other main complaint was the revealing costume Sue wore? Again, not really a problem for me. Costume are so skin tight its just flesh coloring or whatever.

[Marvel Forever]

The story did nothing to help Reed's image. I have read several complaints online about Reed slapping Sue near the end of FF 281.

[markhyperion]

Now there is a thought, but isn't there an alt or What if where Sue and Steve become closer? See what I mean. Sue can work on different levels than a number of other female characters. A projection of a more quiet strength. Invisible almost.

There actually is. It's the Marvel Adventures volume 1 and 2. Sue and Cap lead an avengers team. It shows Sue's ability as a leader and that grows on Cap who falls for her. But she only has eyes for Reed. Who also happens to be the villain sort of. It's an interesting 30 issue arc

Further, when Reed died in 90s, Sue was supposed to end up with Cap. But they didnt pull trigger

[jackolover]

If Reed and Sue ever split up I would stop reading comics first of all. But in this hypothetical the last thing Sue needs is to be paired with someone else, especially not Doom who she hates, and definitely not to be another man's emotional support. It'd be squandering the opportunity to finally develop her as an individual.

I can’t see a problem here. Valeria is in close ties with Victor, who is obviously besotted by her. That Sue would warm to Victor because of his relationship with Valeria is so loving, cannot go unnoticed by Sue as supportive and seeing Victor as an uncle Doom would be the first steps to that.

My own view is that the ties between Victor and Sues birthing of Val, Reed trying to rectify that Doom deserves recognition for saving the Multiverse, and Reed was in the wrong, and that Reed wants to make Doom the hero of his story, giving Victor the recognition he deserves, despite Dooms shortcomings. All these things I see mounting up and converging at some point in history. I don’t think it can be avoided. The power of Valeria in this dynamic is too strong.

Sue leaving Reed for Doom or Namor does not benefit her character at all. All she's be doing is being their emotional caretaker trying to keep them on a moral path. She already does that for Reed. That alt reality Sue in Secret Ward did that and she has no character because all she was was a trophy that Reed fought Doom over. And that's all she's be if 616 Sue left Reed for either of them.

What Sue needs is to develop as an individual, something that can be done while married to Reed or alone. Having her leave him for someone else is cheap drama that benefits neither character in the long run.

A way to create drama as well as benefit the character would be to have her be the leader. Reed would pretend to be ok with it for her dale but would unintentionally undermine her often, creating tension. Sue would have a proactive role instead of reactive, and it could change the family dynamic as well because she could have less time to look after the kids which would mean Reed can't lock himself away in his lab for days anymore. That would also create tension as he'd likely not be pleased with that.

I don’t want to get into the whole weak or strong character of Sue here. I agree the Sue in Secret Wars was more a trophy wife for Doom, but the concept attracted me, because it led Sue to be reconciled with Victor, and we saw that with how she was so in agreement with what Doom did in Battleworld. I would point out that Sue interrupted Dooms judgement (to kill all the family of the Brittons) in SW#1, and how Victor respected Sue in this way. This is a big diversion from the murderous Doom we are used to. Then in the ending of SW’s, Doom pleaded with Sue to trust him. This is not a Doom we usually see.

I am not that convinced Sue is a leader of the FF if you have Reed or Doom there who find the solutions to a problem with their inventions. My opinion is that Sue is suited to and likes to be the parent of the kids, and helps out in fights when she can. We have seen Sue have tantrums of frustration at Reed for not being there when he is required. That doesn’t say she can enforce respect from Reed, because Reed gets distracted too often. But with Doom she was more tender, and Doom respected what input she made. I don’t think Reed does. What I think Reed needs to do is own that he can’t be there for Sue and his family. That is his character. Val complains about Reeds lying all the time.

I’m a little intrigued that the coupling on alternative Earth FF of Doom and Sue from 1997, was also on the Moon at that time, considering Reed and Stark are on the Moon right now trying to fix the black hole out of control, that Doom is about to fix.