Does Joker kill too many people?

[Tzigone]

The move from "the thing about Joker is that he's a clown" to "the thing about Joker is that he's a pestilential force of death who kills hundreds at a pop and has no motive apart from making Batman do Batman things" feels like a representation of all that's gone a little off-beam in comics.

It doesn't help that most Batman writers wouldn't actually know a joke if it Exposed The Dark Truth About Gotham in front of them.

I would sort of disagree, in that I liked the Joker best early, when the clown aspect really wasn't fundamental to his character. It was a look more than attitude. He wasn't chaotic. He didn't go for humor, for the most part. Deadly, a fantastic planner, and with specific targets. Give me Golden Age Joker over Silver or Modern Age Joker.

And it also makes it harder for reader to have sufficient suspension of disbelief to fully enjoy the ongoing Batman/Joker saga.

Very true.

It just feels like run of the mill boring writing. Perhaps I’m wrong..after all I deliberately avoid reading Joker stories nowadays.

Same here.

And it makes the hero look less competent when wide-scale death happens over and over and he never prevents it. And, frankly, in some instances the Joker has been used to highlight Batman's no-kill rule in a way that makes Batman look like a monster. Like his rule, or his family abiding by his rule, is more important than the lives of the thousands of people that the Joker will inevitably go on to kill. Him not killing is one thing, but what he does to prevent others from killing the Joker when the man is a clear and present danger...yikes.

[Restingvoice]

I am pretty sure the Joker is either
A- paying corrupt Arkham Staff members
or
B- making direct threats on the live of any unfortunate Arkham staff member that happened to make any sort interaction with him

That being said, it really amuses me how neither Batman, the GCPD, or Arkham higher-ups could figure that already, or work on it to prevent Joker from making any more harm.. smh

(A) is in the game Arkham Asylum
(B) is confirmed in the same game and Death of The Family but Batman acted only after he found it suspicious or Joker left behind a clue that he's been taking over Arkham, same with Bane

In the stories, it's usually 1-2 people he paid or threatened (Officer Boyle and Doctor Young in the game) so the higher-ups won't know and it only stands out to the outside world after the takeover (Death of The Family, Arkham Asylum)

Joker's usually in the Maximum Security part of Arkham so visitors and securities are limited, and the people who can get access are long time staff members excepting Intern Harley early on when Joker threat isn't as big as it is today.

I don't remember what he did to convince another inmate to act as him in The Killing Joke but it's not just staff

He's allowed time outside in the early stories where he's mainly a prankster and so he can talk to other inmates and wardens, but I don't know if he's allowed out today.

[prepmaster]

Its a way of making Joker this big bad that our hero Batman must take down but portraying Joker as a mindless killing machine just makes him less interesting. Its not hard to write a villain that just kills people without reason every time he appears.

[Somecrazyaussie]

The last decade or so has seen a need by writers to "up the stakes" when it comes to stories featuring The Joker. In a way, it artificially ups the threat level by having him kill hundreds or thousands in one hit. Plus, when Batman inevitably wins, it makes him appear to be a greater hero. What most writers fail to realise is that killing people isn't what makes the Joker scary, it's the fact he does so without rhyme or reason.

Most serial killers can be profiled by how they operate/who they target/and evidence at crime scenes. The Joker doesn't fall into a set pattern. The only constant with him is that his crimes are a means to draw Batman's attention. But I have never been big on him as a mass murderer. A serial killer, yes. But not killing hundreds or thousands.

[Rac7d*]

I would sort of disagree, in that I liked the Joker best early, when the clown aspect really wasn't fundamental to his character. It was a look more than attitude. He wasn't chaotic. He didn't go for humor, for the most part. Deadly, a fantastic planner, and with specific targets. Give me Golden Age Joker over Silver or Modern Age Joker.

Very true.



Same here.

And it makes the hero look less competent when wide-scale death happens over and over and he never prevents it. And, frankly, in some instances the Joker has been used to highlight Batman's no-kill rule in a way that makes Batman look like a monster. Like his rule, or his family abiding by his rule, is more important than the lives of the thousands of people that the Joker will inevitably go on to kill. Him not killing is one thing, but what he does to prevent others from killing the Joker when the man is a clear and present danger...yikes.

Why does it make batman look like a monster? It’s the people who never decide to kill him when joker is arrested Bruce did his job

[Vordan]

Joker is just Zsaaz in clown make up these days. He just wants to acquire a massive body count. There’s no jokes, no colorful crimes, just massive slaughterfests.

[Alan2099]

Classic Joker stories where more along the lines of Joker is on the loose. If Batman doesn't stop him, lots of innocent people will get hurt.

Now they seem to follow more of the pattern or Joker is on the loose. He just killed a truck load of people so that batman will come and try to stop him.

And it makes the hero look less competent when wide-scale death happens over and over and he never prevents it. And, frankly, in some instances the Joker has been used to highlight Batman's no-kill rule in a way that makes Batman look like a monster. Like his rule, or his family abiding by his rule, is more important than the lives of the thousands of people that the Joker will inevitably go on to kill. Him not killing is one thing, but what he does to prevent others from killing the Joker when the man is a clear and present danger...yikes.

My favorite example of this was during the Batman/Punisher crossover.

Punisher has Joker dead to rights, is about to shoot him, and Batman jumps in attacks the Punisher and tells Joker to run away.

[Tzigone]

The last decade or so has seen a need by writers to "up the stakes" when it comes to stories featuring The Joker. In a way, it artificially ups the threat level by having him kill hundreds or thousands in one hit. Plus, when Batman inevitably wins, it makes him appear to be a greater hero. What most writers fail to realise is that killing people isn't what makes the Joker scary, it's the fact he does so without rhyme or reason.

Still disagree on that one. Joker had very specific reasons for who he targeted in his first appearance. It was not at all chaotic, instead being excellently and meticulously planned. I really like that story and that mindset. I'm not all that fond of the high-insanity angle used with him later. For me, it gets tiring after a story or two. I feel similarly about mystery books or shows where the reveal in the end is the killer did it because they were crazy.

Classic Joker stories where more along the lines of Joker is on the loose. If Batman doesn't stop him, lots of innocent people will get hurt.

Now they seem to follow more of the pattern or Joker is on the loose. He just killed a truck load of people so that batman will come and try to stop him.

This is true.

The last decade or so has seen a need by writers to "up the stakes" when it comes to stories featuring The Joker.

I'd say the need to up the takes has been affecting comics in general much longer. Kinda ties in with all the big events to me. How often do we see an entire story devoted to Batman stopping a thief anymore? Even the Joker used to be motivated by just greed sometimes. Most stories have bigger stakes now. Of course, long stories contribute to that decision.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Still disagree on that one. Joker had very specific reasons for who he targeted in his first appearance. It was not at all chaotic, instead being excellently and meticulously planned. I really like that story and that mindset. I'm not all that fond of the high-insanity angle used with him later. For me, it gets tiring after a story or two. I feel similarly about mystery books or shows where the reveal in the end is the killer did it because they were crazy.

Reading back over my previous comment, I realise I could have worded it a bit better. But I do agree I prefer a Joker who is meticulous. The Dark Knight did do a good job of highlighting this quality (he was targeting high profile people and still getting to them despite police protection). The Joker has his own reasons for why he is offing his targets. But to a profiler, I'd imagine they'd have a hard time pinning him down. Just because his methods and motives can be wild and unpredictable.

In any case, I dislike the mass murderer angle. All of Batman's rogues have suffered a similar fate to some degree. Riddler got a kick out of playing mind games with the police/Batman, now even he kills a number of people every time he pops up.

[Tzigone]

In any case, I dislike the mass murderer angle. All of Batman's rogues have suffered a similar fate to some degree. Riddler got a kick out of playing mind games with the police/Batman, now even he kills a number of people every time he pops up.

I certainly agree there. And it makes the heroes being willing to accept the villains into their teams, etc. (either temporarily or as part of a villain-to-antihero-or-hero stoyrline) much more problematic. I can't accept those, and have major issues with how the heroes just ignore all the killing the former villain did.

[Frontier]

I would sort of disagree, in that I liked the Joker best early, when the clown aspect really wasn't fundamental to his character. It was a look more than attitude. He wasn't chaotic. He didn't go for humor, for the most part. Deadly, a fantastic planner, and with specific targets. Give me Golden Age Joker over Silver or Modern Age Joker.

Very true.

I think Joker's manicness and insanity is used as a tool to mask or obscure what his real target is and keep people on their toes. He has a grand master plan but you (or at least Batman) might not figure it out until it's too late. He doesn't want people to take him too seriously so he can catch them off guard.

[Tzigone]

I think Joker's manicness and insanity is used as a tool to mask or obscure what his real target is and keep people on their toes. He has a grand master plan but you (or at least Batman) might not figure it out until it's too late. He doesn't want people to take him too seriously so he can catch them off guard.

I do like that idea. That the insanity/chaos really is primarily an act of the Joker's to hide his true nature and/or intentions. Of course, he wouldn't be cutting off his own face in that case, but I'm happy about that.

[Nite-Wing]

Its a comic book don't think about it
I don't know why this is ever an issue
Joker is a killer
So are many other villains throughout DC they kill people outlandishly
The problem is that you have to find convincing reasons for Bruce and others to not take their lives
That's stopped being a point of interest because the medium is per Grant Morrison always going to fall back on the "Its a comic book" rhetoric

Maybe comics should go back to the wordy children's books and force all the manchild fans to let them go
Not likely but as long as there are super villains who exist I think every hero in DC is a failure on some level

[Restingvoice]

Its a comic book don't think about it
I don't know why this is ever an issue
Joker is a killer
So are many other villains throughout DC they kill people outlandishly
The problem is that you have to find convincing reasons for Bruce and others to not take their lives
That's stopped being a point of interest because the medium is per Grant Morrison always going to fall back on the "Its a comic book" rhetoric

Maybe comics should go back to the wordy children's books and force all the manchild fans to let them go
Not likely but as long as there are supervillains who exist I think every hero in DC is a failure on some level

As OP said and I agree, it's less about the justification, but it's the fact that it's boring. Too many murders make you numb because the stake can't get any higher without it feeling ridiculous.

In Death of The Family, he strung and sew together the still-living bodies of a few Arkham guards to make a tapestry depicting Batman as a knight on a horse while Batman's being forced to ride in Arkham on a horse.

That's not funny. That's just gross. He's made a point before that Batman is a king of a castle and the castle is Arkham, and this is the second to last issue after he committed one mass murder per issue, so this is just unnecessary excess.

So then when the next stories are telling that Joker declare war on Gotham be it Endgame, War of Jokes and Riddle, or Joker War, I'm just... okay. So how many people are gonna die this time. It's not interesting. (There maybe small moments that are funny, but the setup is just boring now)

One of the good issue of Joker killing people is Paul Dini writing Joker kidnapping Tim to go a joyride on Christmas night. Tim has to make Joker laughed, otherwise he starts running over innocents. At one point, Tim managed to make him debate on the lore of clowns to distract him because Joker's proud of his knowledge of the classics. The situation is serious, but you got a setup where Joker is being a troll, Tim has to use his smart, and many jokes, while the stake is high.

Killing or not killing, Joker has to be funny, and when they have him kill too many people or the torture became too sadistic, it's not gonna be fun.

It may start that way because they tried to surprise, but we way pass surprise now

...and who knows, maybe you're right, maybe we need light Joker now.

[Gaius]

Yes, in the same way "Bruce is the fake one, Batman is the real guy" has ruined Batman making Joker some nonsensical "agent of chaos" has made the character a completely unenjoyable bore and a waste of page space.