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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Yes, in the same way "Bruce is the fake one, Batman is the real guy" has ruined Batman making Joker some nonsensical "agent of chaos" has made the character a completely unenjoyable bore and a waste of page space.
    I kind of agree. He often ends up more like a force of nature than an actual character. Even, dare I say it, some sort of evil god. I don't like Batgod, and I certainly don't want to see Jokergod.

    That's not funny. That's just gross.
    I'm not really big on funny Joker, either, but I'll agree it's gross. Intentionally so, of course. But it's par for the course, with actions/stories getting increasingly big in scale, and increasingly "shocking" - be that through number of deaths or grotesqueness or whatnot. They always have to one-up the last outing. Not my thing.

    Killing or not killing, Joker has to be funny, and when they have him kill too many people or the torture became too sadistic, it's not gonna be fun.
    Strongly disagree there. Despite his name, he was not funny on origin, and that's probably my single favorite story featuring him.

    I also think the Joker needs to be less about Batman. They even made fun of it with Legos. For me, Lex Luthor can be consumed with Superman (though not a requirement), but the Joker should not be with Batman. Certainly he has laser-focused been for a long time, but I think I prefer old school where sure, sometimes he taunts Batman, but he's got way more things going on and has life outside Batman. And wants to steal jewels occasionally or whatnot.

    For a long time now there's been a sort of setup where the Joker at least wouldn't be what he is without the Batman, where Batman's presence indirectly ends up causing the mass deaths. That's not a good thing to me. I, at least, generally prefer the versions where Lex would have basically done most of the same evil things regardless of Superman's existence (and began doing them before ever met Superman - don't like the childhood buddies bit). I think heroes shouldn't be the reason villains cause the deaths of scores of innocents. At least if they are, only very sparingly. At this point, given how many the Joker kills, and how often it's been specifically to taunt Batman, one has to wonder if Batman causes a net loss of life for Gotham. Still doesn't make the Joker's actions Batman's fault, of course. I guess if he was doing all the same things before Batman ever appeared, and Batman is just a focal point in the present, it's not as bad. Still not fan.

  2. #32
    Mighty Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I kind of agree. He often ends up more like a force of nature than an actual character. Even, dare I say it, some sort of evil god. I don't like Batgod, and I certainly don't want to see Jokergod.
    Yes, at the moment Joker has less of a personality than Doomsday.

  3. #33
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I kind of agree. He often ends up more like a force of nature than an actual character. Even, dare I say it, some sort of evil god. I don't like Batgod, and I certainly don't want to see Jokergod.

    I'm not really big on funny Joker, either, but I'll agree it's gross. Intentionally so, of course. But it's par for the course, with actions/stories getting increasingly big in scale, and increasingly "shocking" - be that through number of deaths or grotesqueness or whatnot. They always have to one-up the last outing. Not my thing.

    Strongly disagree there. Despite his name, he was not funny on origin, and that's probably my single favorite story featuring him.

    I also think the Joker needs to be less about Batman. They even made fun of it with Legos. For me, Lex Luthor can be consumed with Superman (though not a requirement), but the Joker should not be with Batman. Certainly he has laser-focused been for a long time, but I think I prefer old school where sure, sometimes he taunts Batman, but he's got way more things going on and has life outside Batman. And wants to steal jewels occasionally or whatnot.

    For a long time now there's been a sort of setup where the Joker at least wouldn't be what he is without the Batman, where Batman's presence indirectly ends up causing the mass deaths. That's not a good thing to me. I, at least, generally prefer the versions where Lex would have basically done most of the same evil things regardless of Superman's existence (and began doing them before ever met Superman - don't like the childhood buddies bit). I think heroes shouldn't be the reason villains cause the deaths of scores of innocents. At least if they are, only very sparingly. At this point, given how many the Joker kills, and how often it's been specifically to taunt Batman, one has to wonder if Batman causes a net loss of life for Gotham. Still doesn't make the Joker's actions Batman's fault, of course. I guess if he was doing all the same things before Batman ever appeared, and Batman is just a focal point in the present, it's not as bad. Still not fan.
    It seems you really want to see the character return to his Golden Age roots, but I think for most people the definitive take on The Joker is Mark Hamill's Joker who was as entertaining as he was dangerous, and was utterly obsessed with Batman as much as he was committing some laugh-out-loud and darkly comedic crimes.

    Luthor (at least going by Post-Crisis) was a shady wheeler and dealer with some criminal ties but he didn't have an excuse to become a full-on Supervillain until he became obsessed with killing Superman.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Yes, at the moment Joker has less of a personality than Doomsday.
    I wouldn't go that far. When we get stuff like that possible future in the first arc of King's run where he's just standing around killing people until Gotham and Gotham Girl come in, yeah, but at least with actual dialogue I think there's enough of a difference between the two. Snyder and King's Joker's have never felt like Doomsday.

  4. #34
    Wakanda Forever Xero Kaiser's Avatar
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    Yes. Not just Joker, but comic book villains in general. You have these guys murdering thousands, millions or even billions of people and the heroes just mindlessly drone on about, "wE HaVe tO ShOw tHeM OuR WaY WoRkS!1!" when...clearly it doesn't...

    At best, it makes the heroes seem like they have a childlike lack of awareness of the situation. At worst, as if the heroes only care about proving a point and being, "right".

    If they don't want to have their heroes killing people, that's fine. I'm not saying that Batman should be chopping heads off. But...maybe have them stop the villains before they commit weekly omnicide so that maybe we can actually see that their way works.

  5. #35
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    To me, Joker should not be all about mass murder. Its the chaotic way he murders people that makes him the Joker. He is the kind of guy that when you put into a room full of innocent people, he would kill a lot of them but also spare some of them. And you don't simply know why he does that.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    To me, Joker should not be all about mass murder. Its the chaotic way he murders people that makes him the Joker. He is the kind of guy that when you put into a room full of innocent people, he would kill a lot of them but also spare some of them. And you don't simply know why he does that.
    Lot of people like that for Joker, but I'm just not one of them - I like the sane planner who may at times seem random, but isn't. This is more Carnage to me (admittedly, I've only read a little Carnage, so could be totally wrong about that), and I don't like Carnage.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Joker having a huge bodycount is somewhat annyoing but to be fair is his 1st or 2nd story not about poisoning the water supply? Jack Nicholson used poison gas on a parade as well. If it happens with every appearance of the character it gets old fast. While I like Frank Miller's DKR Joker many writers fail when characterizing the Clown Prince like that. Give him a few years of rest.

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Joker having a huge bodycount is somewhat annyoing but to be fair is his 1st or 2nd story not about poisoning the water supply?
    Not that I recall. His first story was about him killing several specific individuals to steal jewels. In a very pre-planned and showy way. He hijacked a radio signal and said he'd kill Henry Claridge at midnight and steal the Claridge diamond. He'd actually already injected Claridge the night before with Joker venom that took 24 hours to kill. So it looks amazing that he got to someone who (now) had police protection, but really, is a lot of showmanship. Another he warned about, then killed from a distance 5 minutes later. But none were random, and he wasn't killing the masses. Second story he kills the chief of police and a man making speeches against him. By sneaky means, sort of, even though he did public warnings. I don't know about the third or fourth or so on stories, though, so he may have poisoned a water supply very early.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xero Kaiser View Post
    Yes. Not just Joker, but comic book villains in general. You have these guys murdering thousands, millions or even billions of people and the heroes just mindlessly drone on about, "wE HaVe tO ShOw tHeM OuR WaY WoRkS!1!" when...clearly it doesn't...

    At best, it makes the heroes seem like they have a childlike lack of awareness of the situation. At worst, as if the heroes only care about proving a point and being, "right".

    If they don't want to have their heroes killing people, that's fine. I'm not saying that Batman should be chopping heads off. But...maybe have them stop the villains before they commit weekly omnicide so that maybe we can actually see that their way works.
    Quoted for truth.

    At certain point, Batman isnít really a counterpoint to the Joker if the Clown Prince is going to murder and ruin hundreds of lives and all Batman does is punch him out.

    Only for Joker to later murder and ruin more lives down the line.

    Itís something the creators need to think about.
    "Obviously not all conservatives are racists/bigots but all racists/bigots claim to be conservative"- Unknown

    RIP Chadwick Boseman.

  10. #40
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Lot of people like that for Joker, but I'm just not one of them - I like the sane planner who may at times seem random, but isn't. This is more Carnage to me (admittedly, I've only read a little Carnage, so could be totally wrong about that), and I don't like Carnage.
    There was a time when Joker would ahve agreed with you.



    Sadly, Carnage's "plan" here could easily come from modern day Joker.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    There was a time when Joker would ahve agreed with you.



    Sadly, Carnage's "plan" here could easily come from modern day Joker.
    To be fair, I think modern Joker still focuses on the theater for his target (that is usually Batman).

    The pile of dead bodies around Joker are not his target, they are simply part of their theater for Joker.

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Not that I recall. His first story was about him killing several specific individuals to steal jewels. In a very pre-planned and showy way. He hijacked a radio signal and said he'd kill Henry Claridge at midnight and steal the Claridge diamond. He'd actually already injected Claridge the night before with Joker venom that took 24 hours to kill. So it looks amazing that he got to someone who (now) had police protection, but really, is a lot of showmanship. Another he warned about, then killed from a distance 5 minutes later. But none were random, and he wasn't killing the masses. Second story he kills the chief of police and a man making speeches against him. By sneaky means, sort of, even though he did public warnings. I don't know about the third or fourth or so on stories, though, so he may have poisoned a water supply very early.
    The poisoning water supply is his debut story in Post Crisis, and before doing that, he kept an experiment of multiple people in an abandoned... plant? It was pretty gory.

    New 52 Death of The Family uses both backstories. Henry Claridge is the first, the water supply is the second.

    The difference is, in Post Crisis the water supply happened before Dick became Robin, while in New 52, it happened after.

    Wait... now that I mention it... I don't remember if they use Henry Claridge in Post Crisis or not... I only remember the story started with Gordon finding the experimented bodies, and the climax is the water supply. In between those, a reporter was gassed on air when Joker delivered the warning that he's going to do something that was actually a distraction and his actual plan is the water supply. That's all I remember.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 07-25-2020 at 07:32 AM.

  13. #43
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    No he debuted specifically as a guy who goes around killing people. Even when OíNeil/Adams brought him back in use his first storyline was going around killing people.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    No he debuted specifically as a guy who goes around killing people. Even when O’Neil/Adams brought him back in use his first storyline was going around killing people.
    Yes, but when he debuted it wasn't mass murder - dozens or hundreds at a time.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Lot of people like that for Joker, but I'm just not one of them - I like the sane planner who may at times seem random, but isn't. This is more Carnage to me (admittedly, I've only read a little Carnage, so could be totally wrong about that), and I don't like Carnage.
    The guy is a planner when he is serious in enacting criminal schemes. But when he isn't serious, he is that kind of guy that could kill people in chaotic ways.

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