X-Men Fantastic Four # 4 (of 4) Review & Spoilers

[Metal Sphere]

We're continuing to see Marvel set up a future Mutants vs the Marvel Universe. Violating and threatening allies for things that might be misused in the wrong hands is complete foolishness. In a desperate attempt to prevent one future where mutants are extinguished, Charles may be ensuring another one exists. Walking down the road of eliminating and erasing ANY human progress that might be deleterious to the future prosperity and dominance of mutants is going to lead down an ugly road. We already saw that with Beast doing his part for the safety of the mutant species.

I cannot wait.

To eventually see even mild heroes like Spider-Man against mutants simply because they're causing chaos worldwide in preemptive strikes is going to be wild. BTW, there is plenty of use for a device that permanently deletes the X-gene from someone. Humanity would finally have a way of ridding themselves of horrors like Apocalypse, Selene, Magneto, etc...

Edit: Thinking about this more, Charles' action is completely indefensible. If Charles were doing this to a good guy female super-genius people would wretch. The violation and the hanging threat of more violation should they not behave in the way they demand.

[Iron Maiden]

Yes. And I'm still placing money on Doom being a far larger piece of that particular puzzle.

That's probably unlikely. Come September his solo series comes back and he'll be tied up trying to get Latveria back from Symkaria.

That would be awesome: Have it be shown that her super-genius capabilities are actually due to her being a mutant and she get's to spend lots of time in Emma's palace while Franklin get's combat training from Wolverine.

Reed and Sue would blow gaskets with Franklin calling everyone "Bub" and Val calling everyone "Darling."

Val doesn't have the mutant gene or Reed would have detected it. Her super-genius is probably due to her birth where Doom used magic to stop to counter the effect of her being conceived in the Negative Zone. I know, sounds strange. She really is the daughter Sue lost in Byrne's story ages ago but guided by Roma Franklin saved her in an alternate reality. Fast forward to where Reed uses the Ultimate Nullfier to defeat Abraxas and reality gets rebooted and Sue gets pregnant again with the child she lost. Although I think part of her is Valeria von Doom also who came from an AU where Reed died and Victor was her second husband. But yeah, Valeria's definitely is linked to Doom in some supernatural way.

[JB]

I find it hilarious that you're trying to defend him with "He hasn't committed genocide in at least a few months."

I'm going to remember this one. If it hasn't happened in the current storyline it doesn't count.

Hey, I guess mutants really DON'T have anything to worry about from people.

It's been agreed upon by the mutants that the past will be left in the past as they move forward on Krakoa. At some point people will just have to accept that and, move forward. Whether one likes it or dislikes it, that's where we are.

The entire conversation between Moira and the Librarian is about the fact that "Mutants are an evolutionary response to an environment. You are...naturally occurring" but for humankind, "But what happens when humanity stops being beholden to its environments? When man controls the building blocks of biology and technology... Evolution is no match for genetic engineering. What good was one mutant adapting to its environment when we could make ten super men?"

Correcto. I've read that scene countless times and it clicks deeper and deeper each time.

[Chris0013]

That's probably unlikely. Come September his solo series comes back and he'll be tied up trying to get Latveria back from Symkaria.

Considering the lack of continuity these days...what with the Doom series going on and him on the run...and at the same time him still being ruler of Latveria in Savage Avengers and hosting Conan....editorial will not care if he is used anywhere a writer wants to use him.

Val doesn't have the mutant gene or Reed would have detected it. Her super-genius is probably due to her birth where Doom used magic to stop to counter the effect of her being conceived in the Negative Zone. I know, sounds strange. She really is the daughter Sue lost in Byrne's story ages ago but guided by Roma Franklin saved her in an alternate reality. Fast forward to where Reed uses the Ultimate Nullfier to defeat Abraxas and reality gets rebooted and Sue gets pregnant again with the child she lost. Although I think part of her is Valeria von Doom also who came from an AU where Reed died and Victor was her second husband. But yeah, Valeria's definitely is linked to Doom in some supernatural way.

I would assume powers are a possibility...considering they say that Valeria von Doom reverted to an unborn child in Sue's womb...x-gene or otherwise.

[Alan2099]

It's been agreed upon by the mutants that the past will be left in the past as they move forward on Krakoa. At some point people will just have to accept that and, move forward.

There are a number of problems with that line of thought.

Part of that is that they only apply it to other mutants. Everything bad humans have done before, still counts. It's just the bad things mutants have don't count count.

The rest of the world didn't agree to that either. Magneto, Apocalypse, and the like are still terrorists that have killed a lot of people. Just because they haven't killed a lot of people in the last two weeks doesn't mean they're suddenly innocent.

It also means the X-men are going to do really stupid things like trusting Sabretooth not to kill people or trusting Shaw and Sinister not to stab them in the back. Just because suddenly their past actions things don't count doesn't mean they've changed.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

There are a number of problems with that line of thought.

Part of that is that they only apply it to other mutants. Everything bad humans have done before, still counts. It's just the bad things mutants have don't count count.

The bad things that humans have done is what led the X-Men to open the doors to all the problem mutants. And Xavier said very clearly that in exchange for diplomatic recognition of Krakoa and economic ties, a new relationship could be established between mutantkind and mankind.

The rest of the world didn't agree to that either.

Actually, they did. When they recognized and granted Krakoa recognition in the United Nations, and Krakoans made it clear that part of the deal was that mutants would now be judged and tried by mutant law, i.e. Krakoan Law.

So the rest of the world agreed to Apocalypse being allowed a return to civilian life.

Magneto,

Again. Magneto has been reformed for several years now. He hasn't been a villain for a really long time. He spent most of the last two decades as a hero or anti-hero, most notably he saved the entire city of San Francisco from an Earthquake, and sacrificed his life in an attempt to save the Earth from the final incursion.

Magneto likewise was put on trial for his original career as a terrorist in UXM#199-200 and he was ultimatley exonerated by the jury because his original actions was the result of mental illness caused by powers that faded when he was de-aged into a baby, and regrown into a functional and mellower person, and also for saving the life of the human judges of the court when terrorists attack the trial. Magneto also got amnesty for his actions in Fatal Attractions when the rest of the world agreed to his demands to rule Genosha.

Apocalypse, and the like are still terrorists that have killed a lot of people. Just because they haven't killed a lot of people in the last two weeks doesn't mean they're suddenly innocent.

The real world has long established a tradition of pardoning terrorists in the name of peace, or for harboring terrorists of some kind. Like Cuban terrorists who attacked and killed civilians living in Castro's Cuba have been harbored in USA, likewise, some of the extreme figures involved in Israel's war of independence against the English, and also the Irish Troubles ended when an agreement was negotiated between the paramilitary and terrorist group spokesman in both Northern Ireland and the Republic. Likewise, Nelson Mandela had a period in his life when he condoned acts of terrorism committed by the African National Congress.

As far as the Marvel Universe is concerned...villains like Loki, Doom, and Norman Osborn have long gotten a free pass in civilian and business affairs by various governments and societies.

So I don't know why Apocalypse doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt.

[EMagnum]

Actually, they did. When they recognized and granted Krakoa recognition in the United Nations, and Krakoans made it clear that part of the deal was that mutants would now be judged and tried by mutant law, i.e. Krakoan Law.

So I don't know why Apocalypse doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt.

Hmm. I was under the impression that Emma tampering with the vote for Krakoa was allusion to real life accusations of Russian voter tampering in the 2016 election. That just means any objectors were silenced.

Also, I don't think an elected bodies decision to make something a law changes peoples feelings about a genocidal mad man over night. Oh look, Its Hitler, but reformed.

[Kingdom X]

I’m just now realizing... isn’t an X-gene removing weapon kind of meaningless now because of the Crucible? Obviously it’s still a huge violation and I’m not a huge fan of the gladiatorial death match thing, but did Charles really need to violate Reed’s mind based on the fact that there’s already a solution?

[EMagnum]

I’m just now realizing... isn’t an X-gene removing weapon kind of meaningless now because of the Crucible? Obviously it’s still a huge violation and I’m not a huge fan of the gladiatorial death match thing, but did Charles really need to violate Reed’s mind based on the fact that there’s already a solution?

I still think its Moira in his head. His attitude and expressions kind of remind me of her recent depictions. Maybe he doesn't place as much faith in the solution as he would have people think. Maybe he's hiding something......Uh again.

[Wolverine12]

I’m just now realizing... isn’t an X-gene removing weapon kind of meaningless now because of the Crucible? Obviously it’s still a huge violation and I’m not a huge fan of the gladiatorial death match thing, but did Charles really need to violate Reed’s mind based on the fact that there’s already a solution?

I would argue that yes Xavier and Magneto were right to do what they did to Reed. I will also conceded it was immoral and borderline villainous. My argument to justify them removing Reed's memory of the Code-X hinges on the fact that he was willing to use in on his own son without his consent or knowledge. Total violation of Franklin imho. If he is will to do this to his own kid I don't see him having an issue with using it against other mutants for whatever he deems is a "just" cause. To be honest nobody comes out looking like a hero in this mini.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Hmm. I was under the impression that Emma tampering with the vote for Krakoa was allusion to real life accusations of Russian voter tampering in the 2016 election. That just means any objectors were silenced.

Well the ambassador who she tampered was a Russian diplomat. So analogy doesn't make sense there.

[Steel Inquisitor]

The bad things that humans have done is what led the X-Men to open the doors to all the problem mutants. And Xavier said very clearly that in exchange for diplomatic recognition of Krakoa and economic ties, a new relationship could be established between mutantkind and mankind.

But when mutants kill and threaten other nations and people they get a pass, promoted even. That's not a compelling argument. Xavier couldn't wait get into bed with cartels and is ok with his former enemies abusing his pupils, he has no moral high ground over anything.

Actually, they did. When they recognized and granted Krakoa recognition in the United Nations, and Krakoans made it clear that part of the deal was that mutants would now be judged and tried by mutant law, i.e. Krakoan Law.

By Emma mentally manipulating votes, with Xavier's approval.

So the rest of the world agreed to Apocalypse being allowed a return to civilian life.

The rest of the world didn't get a say. Apocalypse could have become a civilian at any time, he's a shapeshifter who's really good at hiding. He loves being an active super-villain.

Again. Magneto has been reformed for several years now. He hasn't been a villain for a really long time. He spent most of the last two decades as a hero or anti-hero, most notably he saved the entire city of San Francisco from an Earthquake, and sacrificed his life in an attempt to save the Earth from the final incursion.

Please stop making him look like a hero because he did some good things once.

Magneto likewise was put on trial for his original career as a terrorist in UXM#199-200 and he was ultimatley exonerated by the jury because his original actions was the result of mental illness caused by powers that faded when he was de-aged into a baby, and regrown into a functional and mellower person, and also for saving the life of the human judges of the court when terrorists attack the trial.

That "mellower" version went on to commit global acts of terror, tried to go to war with the entire world to conquer it and kill X-men in storylines like "Magneto War," "Eve of Destruction," "Surviving the Experience." When he was an anti-hero he was like the Punisher or Ghost Rider, not mutant Captain America.

These attempts to whitewash his past as some sort of hero is baffling, as is minimising the destruction he caused in the 60'd and 70's as though that was another Magneto on another Earth.

Magneto also got amnesty for his actions in Fatal Attractions when the rest of the world agreed to his demands to rule Genosha.

Which was done when he threatened the world again with an EMP, they believed him so they gave into it. What a hero.

The real world has long established a tradition of pardoning terrorists in the name of peace, or for harboring terrorists of some kind. Like Cuban terrorists who attacked and killed civilians living in Castro's Cuba have been harbored in USA, likewise, some of the extreme figures involved in Israel's war of independence against the English, and also the Irish Troubles ended when an agreement was negotiated between the paramilitary and terrorist group spokesman in both Northern Ireland and the Republic. Likewise, Nelson Mandela had a period in his life when he condoned acts of terrorism committed by the African National Congress.

There's no people on Earth who are in Magneto's or the groups like the Brotherhood's league with power to reshape the world. And its not America pardoning them, it's a mutant nation founded by his best friend and he's its unofficial vice president. This is, what, the third mutant nation he's been at the top of the government with? All that examples pale at the depths evil mutants have accomplished in Marvel, and Krkao's ok with what they did. No punishment, they get promotions.

In the real world there world didn't forget what those people did, they are still judged by their pasts. Magneto isn't Nelson Mandela, he's Osama bin Laden. People like Selene, Sabretooth and Apocalypse are even worse than he is. We don't have real life equivalents of them in our world.

As far as the Marvel Universe is concerned...villains like Loki, Doom, and Norman Osborn have long gotten a free pass in civilian and business affairs by various governments and societies.

Loki has to be reincarnated into a new person to even try to redeem himself, and it wa sa long road and he's actually done more including battling against his evil self than the others on that list. If this was old Loki all that goes out the window. Doom is a tyrant, and absolutely no-one thinks he's a hero. He's not. Norman's like Lex Luthor, when that happens he's not supposed to be trusted. The Avengers went to war over him about it. He's a monster, even the Thunderbolts knew that.

So I don't know why Apocalypse doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt.

Because he hasn't changed, he's just more polite. He still wants to kill any human he runs across and mutants are expendable minions to him. The main change is that Xavier's on board with his tactics, a huge red flag for Xavier being compromised.

Well the ambassador who she tampered was a Russian diplomat. So analogy doesn't make sense there.

She didn't "tamper" with them, they're a person not a tv set. She violated his mind without his consent, but that does appear to be a thing in krakoa.

[Micabe]

I’m just now realizing... isn’t an X-gene removing weapon kind of meaningless now because of the Crucible? Obviously it’s still a huge violation and I’m not a huge fan of the gladiatorial death match thing, but did Charles really need to violate Reed’s mind based on the fact that there’s already a solution?

[EMagnum]

Well the ambassador who she tampered was a Russian diplomat. So analogy doesn't make sense there.

Yeah it does. Actually that might make it funnier. The Russian diplomat got his vote tampered with.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

But when mutants kill and threaten other nations and people they get a pass, promoted even. That's not a compelling argument.

This feels like a tried rephrase, but again look at the Avengers roster and count the number of former villains and criminals there. Including I might add, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch, who became Avengers after their original introduction as members of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. Later Avengers include the likes of Spider-Man supervillain Sandman/Flint Marko. So again, the Avengers established precedent in the Marvel Universe for absolving mutant terrorists.

That's not getting into Hank Pym, founder of the Avengers, and creator of Ultron. Ultron alone has killed far more people than Magneto has by several degrees when it slaughtered the entire nation of Slorenia.

Please stop making him look like a hero because he did some good things once.

When you save a city from an earthquake by using your powers, "looking like a hero" isn't something people need to do. It comes with the territory. At the end of the day, Magneto has saved more people than he has killed.

These attempts to whitewash his past as some sort of hero is baffling, as is minimising the destruction he caused in the 60'd and 70's as though that was another Magneto on another Earth.

Again that was exonerated in the pages, Magneto submitted to a trial and everything by a human jury.

In the real world there world didn't forget what those people did, they are still judged by their pasts.

Some are, others aren't for the sake of political expediency. You look at Spain, a lot of the people who served the government of Franco were never caught or went to jail. Franco himself still has a monument and memorial to him still standing in Spain.

Loki has to be reincarnated into a new person to even try to redeem himself,

Fact is Marvel Universe 616 set a precedent with Loki. If he can go in and out of the revolving door and generally be considered an anti-hero or hero...then the X-Men have grounds for giving Apocalypse a second chance.