X-Men Fantastic Four # 4 (of 4) Review & Spoilers

[Veitha]

It also doesn't help that Krekoa has been systematically cutting off all possible deterrent's through out this entire run so far. They wage an economics war by way of a miracle drug making humanity rely on them. Then they take out the fanatics and there tech. Then the criminal organizations tech next. Now they've effectively cutoff former allies. Next will probably target super villains. That deals with humans ability to defend itself with technology. Apocalypse has effectively been working on a way to attain mutant magic while cutting off humanity effectively eliminating mankind's ability to defend itself using magic. If they've formed an alliance with the Shi'ar then they could cut humanity off from space too. Sounds like the bloody cold war all over again.

Blame that on human policies against mutants during the years and how human governments act towards mutants. Just look at Russia or Brasil in X-Force and Marauders. Or Latveria.

Just a random thought and genuine question.

If Reed gave every human on the planet a telepathy blocker, would that be a slight against mutants or a good thing that protects people?

That might be a good thing that protects people if it's made in a way that doesn't hurt the telepath or doesn't affect the telepath's freedom, and it could prevent situations such as Purple Man/Jessica Jones. Tampering with genetics without your kid's consent is bad, and the X-Gene is part of a mutant's identity, as their powers do. I didn't want to make the association, but the possible comparison to conversion therapy is still pretty much there.

Telepaths can still work around psi-blockers btw. See Emma in this issue or when she's gone pass O*N*E tp defenses. But this is more of a featz talk haha.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Blame that on human policies against mutants during the years and how human governments act towards mutants. Just look at Russia or Brasil in X-Force and Marauders. Or Latveria.

This argument would have more merit if it was just about country's governments, instead it's defined by what species people are as if that is whet determines someone's moral worth. As well as ignoring Krakoa doing their best to imitate humanity's worst policies and calling it right because, again, they belong to a certain species.

It's not like mutants have ever given humanity reasons to fear them before.



It's not like acts like the would have allowed the mutant bigots even more propaganda to work with. And yet we're supposed to let the monsters be lionised as heroes, rather than condemning humans and mutants when they do bad things.

That might be a good thing that protects people if it's made in a way that doesn't hurt the telepath or doesn't affect the telepath's freedom, and it could prevent situations such as Purple Man/Jessica Jones. Tampering with genetics without your kid's consent is bad, and the X-Gene is part of a mutant's identity, as their powers do. I didn't want to make the association, but the possible comparison to conversion therapy is still pretty much there.

Telepathic dampers are passive, Shaw wears them in Krakoa. Purple man's not even a telepath, he influences people with pheromones. I agree Reed should have got FRanklin's consent, except it's not like Krakoa cares about consent from their own citizens before they do something. It's got nothing to do with conversation therapy, you'd think mutants would want to hide from Sentinel technology safety, but nope they prefer to be sitting ducks.

Telepaths can still work around psi-blockers btw. See Emma in this issue or when she's gone pass O*N*E tp defenses. But this is more of a featz talk haha.

Yeah, nothing will stop her from violating peoples minds and Xavier will back her up when she does it.

https://abload.de/image.php?img=12j4k8g.jpg

Our "heroes," ladies and gentlemen.

[Glio]

Just a random thought and genuine question.

If Reed gave every human on the planet a telepathy blocker, would that be a slight against mutants or a good thing that protects people?

It's good, just like a bulletproof vest is good and a gun is bad.

[Veitha]

This argument would have more merit if it was just about country's governments, instead it's defined by what species people are as if that is whet determines someone's moral worth. As well as ignoring Krakoa doing their best to imitate humanity's worst policies and calling it right because, again, they belong to a certain species.

It's not like mutants have ever given humanity reasons to fear them before.



It's not like acts like the would have allowed the mutant bigots even more propaganda to work with. And yet we're supposed to let the monsters be lionised as heroes, rather than condemning humans and mutants when they do bad things.



Telepathic dampers are passive, Shaw wears them in Krakoa. Purple man's not even a telepath, he influences people with pheromones. I agree Reed should have got FRanklin's consent, except it's not like Krakoa cares about consent from their own citizens before they do something. It's got nothing to do with conversation therapy, you'd think mutants would want to hide from Sentinel technology safety, but nope they prefer to be sitting ducks.



Yeah, nothing will stop her from violating peoples minds and Xavier will back her up when she does it.

https://abload.de/image.php?img=12j4k8g.jpg

Our "heroes," ladies and gentlemen.

Why are you using movie scenes here?

Human governments have been anti-mutants almost all the time. It's a fact in the comics and it's still happening. Apocalypse has nothing to do with it. Sentinels hunt innocent mutants, not just the villains. Actually, they've done more harm to innocents than villains such as Apocalypse.

Your arguments are really falling apart. Yes Reed should have asked for consent and he didn't and he's wrong. Stop it with the misdirection. Krakoa has nothing to do with it. It's a lot like conversion therapy, since he tried to hide his nature so that he wouldn't be able to meet his own community.

It's on Reed if he had that kind of tech and only used it for his own means instead of sharing with the X-Men. And the mutants are now in a position where they don't need to hide anymore, but they're able to fight back and not be afraid of showing their mutation. What do you want them to do? Hide forever? Pretend they're humans forever?

[EMagnum]

Yes and with good reason. Mutants are an abnormally powerful and destructive anomaly that appears randomly among the populous. In many cases with disastrous results. Not unlike a time bomb waiting to go off. Case in point we have the most recent issues of New Mutants.

Tampering with genetics without your kid's consent is bad, and the X-Gene is part of a mutant's identity, as their powers do. I didn't want to make the association, but the possible comparison to conversion therapy is still pretty much there.

That's a terrible comparison. A persons sexual identity is not the equivalent of a mutant power. Having the power to kill people instantly with a touch rendering you a biohazard to all you know and love is not something a person should base there identity off of. That's one example of countless insane random powers mutants get and humanity is not equipped to deal with it. In fact I'd say the Inhumans were the only ones properly equipped and they had a catalyst that triggered it.

[Veitha]

Lol most mutants have 6 fingers instead of 5. But good to know we have human governments apologists here. Sentinels, experimentations and harming children is always done for the good of human citizens, I guess.

In-universe, mutant powers and the X-Gene are part of a mutant's identity as much as their sexuality.

Yeah Inhumans had such great means of containing their catalyst and mutations that they just almost eradicated a species and released a chemical hazard in the atmosphere.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Why are you using movie scenes here?

It's an example of what Apocalypse can do, and is a faithful rendition of him.

Human governments have been anti-mutants almost all the time. It's a fact in the comics and it's still happening.

Not as much as you'd think, mutants didn't really come to prominence until Magneto started assaulting military bases in broad daylight. Governments aren't completely against mutants, the government shut down Operation: Zero Tolerance.

Apocalypse has nothing to do with it. Sentinels hunt innocent mutants, not just the villains.

Apocalypse is a high profile mutant who routinely engaged in super-villain schemes against humanity, and mutant kind. He's worse than Magneto is with PR for mutant kind.

Actually, they've done more harm to innocents than villains such as Apocalypse.

That's very debatable. Apocalypse was committing genocide on humanity long before Sentinels are invented.

[quote]Your arguments are really falling apart. Yes Reed should have asked for consent and he didn't and he's wrong. Stop it with the misdirection. Krakoa has nothing to do with it.

Krakoa has everything to do with this, the highest levels of the Krakoan government were involved in this mini-series and violated Reed's mind for their own agenda. Krakoan citizens can't vote in elections, either. Don't pretend like this Xavier cares about consent. He's not even caring when Apocalypse does it to his own former students like Rogue or Betsy.

It's a lot like conversion therapy, since he tried to hide his nature so that he wouldn't be able to meet his own community.

Because Sentinels track mutant with their x-gene. Xavier speculated that's how it could be used but that's not Reed actually did, it was a straw man.

It's on Reed if he had that kind of tech and only used it for his own means instead of sharing with the X-Men. And the mutants are now in a position where they don't need to hide anymore, but they're able to fight back and not be afraid of showing their mutation.

This is an interesting stance because Magneto was a pioneer in technology that dampened mutant powers - as a weapon against the X-men. Do you blame him for what they were used for by Genosha? We'll never know if he would because Krakoa, not the X-men, put their foot down on Reed and would rather bury it then use it to protect themselves from mutant tracking technologies. Which is really curious, if you think about it. Why would a mutant nation want to suppress technology that hides mutants from Sentinels?

What do you want them to do? Hide forever? Pretend they're humans forever?

I want them to be safe, it's not about "pretending" to be humans it's to keep off Sentinel radar.

[Veitha]

Oh no we're back into separate quotes arguments. Let me twirl out of here while I reread Sue admitting to mutants that she screwed up.

[EMagnum]

There not concerned with 6 fingers, 5 or even 4 its the nuclear level threat fingers that gets government attention with a lesser nod to the ones that kill a few accidentally. It also doesn't help that every single peaceful answer to try to normalize or reduce the threat level fails.

In-Universe, that is a poor way to identify yourself. I sorely doubt the 6 fingered mutant revolves his entire identity around having an extra finger. Much less the guy who kills with a touch. Did it ever occur to you that one day with the random nature of this insane deus ex machina gene it would result in a truly biohazardous mutant. A mutant that could very well wipe them as well as a good chunk of humanity out in one fell swoop?

Oh and the Inhumans seemed to handle things just fine the way they were until recent years.....or writers. Better then mutants did anyway.

[Kingdom X]

Yes and with good reason. Mutants are an abnormally powerful and destructive anomaly that appears randomly among the populous. In many cases with disastrous results. Not unlike a time bomb waiting to go off. Case in point we have the most recent issues of New Mutants.
That's a terrible comparison. A persons sexual identity is not the equivalent of a mutant power. Having the power to kill people instantly with a touch rendering you a biohazard to all you know and love is not something a person should base there identity off of. That's one example of countless insane random powers mutants get and humanity is not equipped to deal with it. In fact I'd say the Inhumans were the only ones properly equipped and they had a catalyst that triggered it.

Of course powers and sexuality aren’t the same thing, but the metaphor is made pretty clear even in this comic. Franklin talks about wanting to explore his own identity and find his community. Plus the fact that powers pop up during puberty and the X-Men have often acted as a found family. Lastly, we know that powers are incredibly important to mutants identities because of how depressed and lost so many mutants felt after House of M. So yeah a mutant having their powers forcibly taken away or hidden is really messed up.

On the other hand, I’m also in the camp that thinks that what Charles did at the end of the issue was inexcusable. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

[Veitha]

There not concerned with 6 fingers, 5 or even 4 its the nuclear level threat fingers that gets government attention with a lesser nod to the ones that kill a few accidentally. It also doesn't help that every single peaceful answer to try to normalize or reduce the threat level fails.

In-Universe, that is a poor way to identify yourself. I sorely doubt the 6 fingered mutant revolves his entire identity around having an extra finger. Much less the guy who kills with a touch. Did it ever occur to you that one day with the random nature of this insane deus ex machina gene it result in a truly biohazardous mutant that could very well wipe them as well as a good chunk of humanity out in one fell swoop?

Oh and the Inhumans seemed to handle things just fine the way they were until recent years.....or writers. Better then mutants did anyway.

That just isn't true. Human response to mutants has targeted everyone, from the most docile mutant to the dangerous ones. Just check Rosenberg run for a more recent example. Or just look at what Russia and Brasil are doing currently.

Inhumans seemed to handle things better (did they? Slavery based on genetics doesn't seem better but ok) because they were essentially an alien species that lived in complete isolation. As soon as they came to live on Earth they endangered an entire species and released a bio-hazard. So yeah, that's not true either.

[Killerbee911]

Just a random thought and genuine question.

If Reed gave every human on the planet a telepathy blocker, would that be a slight against mutants or a good thing that protects people?

It would be fine depending on how it was implement if every human had to individually get a device or with confines of a city that is where block telepaths it would probably be fine. If he created a device that stop all telepaths from using their powers that would be wrong. Also in inventing a device he has consider how the device will be used in the future, The makers of the atomic tech( bomb) realized after the fact it has potential for misuse I believe I read in hindsight some said they wouldn't be involved. So in creating a device with a good intent but potential to be abused the creator has some responsibility. It is not just a simple one or the other thing imo.

[EMagnum]

That just isn't true. Human response to mutants has targeted everyone, from the most docile mutant to the dangerous ones. Just check Rosenberg run for a more recent example. Or just look at what Russia and Brasil are doing currently.

Inhumans seemed to handle things better (did they? Slavery based on genetics doesn't seem better but ok) because they were essentially an alien species that lived in complete isolation. As soon as they came to live on Earth they endangered an entire species and released a bio-hazard. So yeah, that's not true either.

Yeah that would probably be how third world or even second world governments would work. They aren't exactly as well equipped as first world countries.

Yeah, I'd say committing genocide still beats slavery by a sliver. Apocalypse pretty much takes the trophy. God only knows what Sinister's done. Also as of the most recent X-Force issue Krekoa is responsible for the mass genocide of an entire country. Within in three months of it's existence! That's got to be a record. Oh and the bio-hazard was meant to stop Thanos not kill mutants.

[Chris0013]

Context, what he did was questionable and he did it rarely, this Xavier laughs about it (like with Emma) and probes people in nearly every conversation. He did that to Phoenix to make sure she didn't harm people since she was a time bomb I can't remember why he did that to Kitty's parents but that's not the same thing. He didn't mind wipe Kitty's parents because he thought they were going to destroy the universe. And the mindwiping for this Xavier is just this Xavier's regular behaviour because doing controversial things like getting Shaw to work under the table for cartels and letting Apocalypse off for abusing his own students is the new "normal" to him. This is the tip of the iceberg where it comes to this Xavier, add it to the list.

Jean did it to Kitty's parents because they took their daughter out to talk about the school and the shop they were at was attacked and they had no idea where there daughter was or if she was safe or alive. Phoenix/Jean was like "hey...it's easier to just wipe their minds than to explain."

[Veitha]

Yeah that would probably be how third world or even second world governments would work. They aren't exactly as well equipped as first world countries.

Yeah, I'd say committing genocide still beats slavery by a sliver. Apocalypse pretty much takes the trophy. God only knows what Sinister's done. Also as of the most recent X-Force issue Krekoa is responsible for the mass genocide of an entire country. Within in three months of it's existence! That's got to be a record. Oh and the bio-hazard was meant to stop Thanos not kill mutants.

Do you read X-Men comics? The US government did Sentinels, forced vaccination and experimentation on mutants. It's not "just" third world countries. And still, being an apologist for this kind of thing is pretty bad, be it an act from a first world country or a third world country.

Apocalypse hasn't committed genocide since being a member of the Krakoan society. Single villain crime != Hate crime != crime committed by a nation. Beast is the only one who acted badly, but we don't know the extent of that. I'll guess we need to see how the Council reacts to that and we need to know if Jean cured those people. Again, he did it by himself and not because Krakoa ordered him to. While just take a look at War of Kings and Realm of Kings to see the level of mass killings and despair that the Inhumans have caused as a species and as a nation. Not even counting IvX.

Throwing in mutant crimes vs inhuman crimes doesn't change the fact that it is not true that Inhumans handle things better. Like, we're going way off topic anyway from your first comment.

The bio-hazard is still a bio-hazard. Ill conceived plan with a following policy that got thousands of mutants dead. It doesn't justify them in the slightest.