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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    The perfect response to a ludicrous fail at a burn reply.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  2. #17

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    in the modern day, I am staunchly opposed to spider-man getting pwned in fights against "average" super powered folks like Black Tarantula. I hated that with a passion.
    Peter also has martial arts training from Shang Chi-- which is probably forgotten by now-- so there's even less of an excuse for him to have a 50% chance of losing in every fight where it's not just a human involved.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    in the modern day, I am staunchly opposed to spider-man getting pwned in fights against "average" super powered folks like Black Tarantula. I hated that with a passion.
    Exactly. That's why stuff like Spider-Man v. Firelord has aged so much better than the sentiments of oversmart fans.

    Spider-Man v. Firelord is the natural order of the Marvel Universe.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Exactly. That's why stuff like Spider-Man v. Firelord has aged so much better than the sentiments of oversmart fans.
    Two wrongs don't make a right.

    Spider-Man v. Firelord is the natural order of the Marvel Universe.
    If that is the case, then the Marvel Universe sucks at storytelling.

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Two wrongs don't make a right.
    One is preferable, and vastly more entertaining, than another.

    If that is the case, then the Marvel Universe sucks at storytelling.
    1) Spider-Man V. Firelord comes from the 80s widely considered the second golden age for Marvel Comics and Spider-Man as a whole. So this story comes from a time that's a golden period.

    2) Spider-Man V. Firelord was well received and widely liked on release and is still considered a classic story by many such as Roger Stern, Chip Zdarsky, as well as other comics critics like Allen Scherstahl and Mark Ginocchio. This idea that this fight is ridiculous is a very minority

    The negative view of this fight, is a minority-of-a-minority view and not at all representative of the actual reception and influence of that story.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    One is preferable, and vastly more entertaining, than another.
    One is how you get nonsense like Deathstroke vs the Justice League. There is a reason why stuff like Spider-Man vs Firelord doesn't happen in modern comics.



    1) Spider-Man V. Firelord comes from the 80s widely considered the second golden age for Marvel Comics and Spider-Man as a whole. So this story comes from a time that's a golden period.
    See above. Not everything from Marvel's "golden age" was good. By this logic, Avengers #200 was a great story.

    2) Spider-Man V. Firelord was well received and widely liked on release and is still considered a classic story by many such as Roger Stern, Chip Zdarsky, as well as other comics critics like Allen Scherstahl and Mark Ginocchio. This idea that this fight is ridiculous is a very minority

    The negative view of this fight, is a minority-of-a-minority view and not at all representative of the actual reception and influence of that story.
    You of all people are really trying to use the "it got positive reception therefore is immune to criticism" card?

  7. #22
    Incredible Member Ozymandias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    1) Spider-Man V. Firelord comes from the 80s widely considered the second golden age for Marvel Comics and Spider-Man as a whole. So this story comes from a time that's a golden period.

    2) Spider-Man V. Firelord was well received and widely liked on release and is still considered a classic story by many such as Roger Stern, Chip Zdarsky, as well as other comics critics like Allen Scherstahl and Mark Ginocchio. This idea that this fight is ridiculous is a very minority

    The negative view of this fight, is a minority-of-a-minority view and not at all representative of the actual reception and influence of that story.
    And yet, here someone's asking and most people mention the Firelord fight as Spider-Man's most hated win. Count me among thee "minority-of-a-minority". Sadly I can't counter your two previous arguments, as they aren't arguments as such.

  8. #23
    Spectacular Member JTHM's Avatar
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    Not technically Spider-Man (As in, Peter Parker) but also technically Spider-Man so I thought they were worth getting an honorary mention:

    Every time Slott's SpOck fought or had a conflict against The Avengers or other heroes in general. It was one of the lamest instances of Spider-Man's "I'm holding back all this time but now I am cutting loose" thing. From SpOck making Thor struggle to hold him, to SpOck (fused with Venom) holding his own against The Avengers. It's just senseless and ignores the real powers of most of the characters. Like, sure, I can buy a Spider-Man (in this case Otto) without morals being able to dance around Captain America, Black Widow and Wolverine somewhat easily. But Iron Man? Thor? Come on now, don't make me laugh.

    Spider-Man could be in his angriest, darkest, most unruly moment where he would attack with every bit of strength his body had. And Thor would still flick him into next week (And should be grateful he didn't just explode)

  9. #24
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    One is how you get nonsense like Deathstroke vs the Justice League. There is a reason why stuff like Spider-Man vs Firelord doesn't happen in modern comics.
    Spider-Man v. Firelord isn't comparable at all to that situation.

    Likewise, Deathstroke vs. Justice League happened in the 2000s, in other words it is modern comics. And look around and you will find other examples

    You of all people are really trying to use the "it got positive reception therefore is immune to criticism" card?
    No, I am just saying that the way people dunk on this, you would think that this was some long-term joke or punching bag forever when in fact it's often hailed as a classic moment.

    As recently as Nick Spencer's ASM#6, where Peter goes to the Bar with No Name and answers the quiz about "which herald of galactus did Spider-Man defeat" and Peter answers with "Firelord...and it was awesome".

    Pushing back against Firelord is like pushing back on Star Wars prequel-bashing where people have become so borderline fascist about their prequel hate that the taste of a minority gets to dictate over the actual views of history. Or you know pushing back against people who claim "Everyone hated the marriage" and so on.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Spider-Man v. Firelord isn't comparable at all to that situation.

    Likewise, Deathstroke vs. Justice League happened in the 2000s, in other words it is modern comics. And look around and you will find other examples



    No, I am just saying that the way people dunk on this, you would think that this was some long-term joke or punching bag forever when in fact it's often hailed as a classic moment.

    As recently as Nick Spencer's ASM#6, where Peter goes to the Bar with No Name and answers the quiz about "which herald of galactus did Spider-Man defeat" and Peter answers with "Firelord...and it was awesome".

    Pushing back against Firelord is like pushing back on Star Wars prequel-bashing where people have become so borderline fascist about their prequel hate that the taste of a minority gets to dictate over the actual views of history. Or you know pushing back against people who claim "Everyone hated the marriage" and so on.
    That is correct. Many of not most people read, watch or play Spider-Man on the gaming console do so because they want him to essentially kick ass ( especially Osborn and Carnage). I understand there are times Pete will lose ( starting with Amazing Fantasy 15), but not liking him to win? No way. I think back to the Joker movie. I despised it. Why? Seeing the Wayne’s get killed and Bruce become an orphan. There is nothing entertaining about that and Joker not paying a price. People like Joker need to pay a price for their actions and not get rewarded.

  11. #26
    "Emma is STILL right! Vegeta's Avatar
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    Amazing Spider-Man vol. 1 issue 1 ended with the Fantastic Four concerned that a teenager was "so blamed strong, how strong'll he be when he gets older?" I assumed that 80's Spider-Man titles were following that train of logic as he WAS now older and was often now pitted against more powerful rogues from other franchises. (Juggernaut, Absorbing Man and Titania, etc.)
    So I didn't have a problem with his win over Firelord. If anything, I am more annoyed that they rolled back a lot of that character growth in an attempt to bring him back to his teenage years.
    "The White Queen welcomes you, TO DIE!"

  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegeta View Post
    ...If anything, I am more annoyed that they rolled back a lot of that character growth in an attempt to bring him back to his teenage years.
    I agree with you. I find this is the most offensive aspect of Post-OMD or Modern Peter Parker/Spider-Man by far.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegeta View Post
    Amazing Spider-Man vol. 1 issue 1 ended with the Fantastic Four concerned that a teenager was "so blamed strong, how strong'll he be when he gets older?" I assumed that 80's Spider-Man titles were following that train of logic as he WAS now older and was often now pitted against more powerful rogues from other franchises. (Juggernaut, Absorbing Man and Titania, etc.)
    So I didn't have a problem with his win over Firelord. If anything, I am more annoyed that they rolled back a lot of that character growth in an attempt to bring him back to his teenage years.
    He's hardly the only one. There's a reason why Ben Grimm and Bruce banner can never be permanently "cured".

  14. #29
    Spectacular Member JTHM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegeta View Post
    Amazing Spider-Man vol. 1 issue 1 ended with the Fantastic Four concerned that a teenager was "so blamed strong, how strong'll he be when he gets older?" I assumed that 80's Spider-Man titles were following that train of logic as he WAS now older and was often now pitted against more powerful rogues from other franchises. (Juggernaut, Absorbing Man and Titania, etc.)
    Spider-Man did not beat Juggernaut 1-on-1. At best he held his own. Absorbing Man and Titania both have a chronic loser syndrome with having them lose fights they should win by all accounts. No matter how you slice it, it is illogical for Spider-Man, a guy who regularly has to dodge bullets because he could get injured, to fight with people who are heralds of Galactus. It just doesn't make any sense.

    It wouldn't be outrageous if Spider-Man over time did grow stronger. But in that context, his normal threats should not even bother him.

  15. #30
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTHM View Post
    Absorbing Man and Titania both have a chronic loser syndrome with having them lose fights they should win by all accounts. No matter how you slice it, it is illogical for Spider-Man, a guy who regularly has to dodge bullets because he could get injured, to fight with people who are heralds of Galactus.
    Has anyone here read the actual Firelord 2-Parter? I am just asking. Because based on the responses I read here I don't seem to get a sense that anyone has read the original story, nor have they understood the tone, or the presentation of it.

    Here's how the actual story breaks down.
    -- Firelord comes to Earth to try Pizza. No seriously. That's why he comes to Earth.
    -- Firelord doesn't know his own strength nor does he understand Earth customs very well. He causes a ton of collateral damage.
    -- This leads Spider-Man to intervene. The initial fight goes poorly for Spider-Man.
    -- He spends most of Part 1 and a lot of Part 2 trying to contact the Fantastic Four and the Avengers, but neither of them are available.
    -- He and Firelord fight across the city, burning and destroying glasses and buildings, so Spider-Man tries to lead him to an abandoned and thinly inhabited part of the area (because Zack Snyder wasn't writing the story).
    -- Spider-Man is finally at wits end and he unleashes a desperation attack on Firelord who underestimates him, and then at the last moment Avengers arrive.
    -- Final panel is a shot of devastation as the Avengers and Spider-Man are small figures in the frame.


    In other words, Spider-Man defeats Firelord because
    a) Firelord gets afflicted by "Chronic loser syndrome", not knowing or understanding his own powers and making a total fool of himself,
    b) Firelord underestimates him and doesn't use his full powers because again the story establishes he's an idiot or in an idiotic phase at the start of the story.
    c) Spider-Man tries his level best to get the FF and Avengers and out of desperation and anger fights against him by himself.
    d) The ending by showing Firelord's devastation, doesn't paint it as an entirely triumphant thing.


    At the end of the day, Spider-Man versus Firelord is the single best story Firelord has ever been part of.

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