Fights that you hated that Spider Man won?

[Frontier]

Should we just limit this to Peter? Because there are some fights where Miles fights somebody big like Blackheart and just Venom Blasts his way to victory in, like, one panel that kind of bothers me.

[PCN24454]

Should we just limit this to Peter? Because there are some fights where Miles fights somebody big like Blackheart and just Venom Blasts his way to victory in, like, one panel that kind of bothers me.

They really do abuse his Venom Blast power.

It's like he's playing video game.

[Klaxton]

That is correct. Many of not most people read, watch or play Spider-Man on the gaming console do so because they want him to essentially kick ass ( especially Osborn and Carnage). I understand there are times Pete will lose ( starting with Amazing Fantasy 15), but not liking him to win?

Its that people don't want him to win, its just that there are people he has no job of defeating, like Firelord.
Plus Spider Man is not the only character that appears in other media. So why shouldn't they win?
Plus you say people want him to win but you understand that he must lose. So he shouldn't lose because people don't want him to? That's some serious bias. Not everyone is so biased that they always want their favourites to win.

No way. I think back to the Joker movie. I despised it. Why? Seeing the Wayne’s get killed and Bruce become an orphan. There is nothing entertaining about that and Joker not paying a price. People like Joker need to pay a price for their actions and not get rewarded.

Its the Joker. Its his movie. Its a villain origin story. He's the villain so he will on it. So your idea is that win and lose must be simply on audience bias. Gotcha

Btw a lot of people loved tha Joker won hell the movie made 1 bill)

[TheCape]

Is not really much of a problem to be honest, is not like he is beating people of a Firelord in a regular basis, it happened once and that's it. There are very little instances when someone jobs to Sider-Man, is usually Cap or Wolverine who had the jobbing aura in the Marvel Universe.

[NC_Yankee]

Was there any fight you hated that Spider Man won? For any reasons. It may be illogical, he may have been in the wrong, etc.

I actually have one instance and Spider-Man and ( or) Peter was NOT in the wrong: Avengers 11. Titled Along Came A Spider: Kang creates a robot Spider-Man, who defeats the Avengers, but who shows up and defeats the robot and saves the Avengers? The real Spider-Man. You mean the robot can defeat the entire Avengers, but lose to Spider-Man? I am pro Spider-Man and anti Avengers, but that is something I cannot believe actually happened.

[Huntsman Spider]

I actually have one instance and Spider-Man and ( or) Peter was NOT in the wrong: Avengers 11. Titled Along Came A Spider: Kang creates a robot Spider-Man, who defeats the Avengers, but who shows up and defeats the robot and saves the Avengers? The real Spider-Man. You mean the robot can defeat the entire Avengers, but lose to Spider-Man? I am pro Spider-Man and anti Avengers, but that is something I cannot believe actually happened.

And the robot Spider-Man even came back in an issue of Spider-Man Team-Up during the 90s while Ben Reilly was Spider-Man. Still, I think Avengers 11 was an early sign of just how badly many in the Marvel Universe have come to underestimate the web-slinger.

[From The Shadows]

He didn't have the symbiote at the time, his black costume was a normal one.

I thought his costume was always the symbiote at the time I mean I've never seen him that angry before unless it was the symbiote.

[TheCape]

I thought his costume was always the symbiote at the time I mean I've never seen him that angry before unless it was the symbiote.

Nah, he only had the symbiote for like 10 issues, after that he keep using a black costume that was just a costume. Besides the symbiote unlike the cartoons didn't affect his personality back then (althought that had been retconed). Still, is true that he usually doesn't get that angry, but he is not strange to that kind of rage.

[NC_Yankee]

And the robot Spider-Man even came back in an issue of Spider-Man Team-Up during the 90s while Ben Reilly was Spider-Man. Still, I think Avengers 11 was an early sign of just how badly many in the Marvel Universe have come to underestimate the web-slinger.

You are correct, Spider-Man has always been under appreciated. I think one reason is because of his quips, most people in the Marvel Universe ( heroes and villains alike) do not take him seriously. One thing is this: In his greatest victories he is relentless. Juggernaut, Firelord, Ock ( ASM 33), and Rhino ( the issue where Rhino put him in the hospital), he simply would not quit, which is why he won. That said there are exceptions. For example:The Fantastic Four take him seriously, because they understand him ( probably because Ben Grimm also throws out one liners and Johnny Storm is his best friend in the superhero world). One other point: Avengers 11 was also a rare opportunity for Jack Kirby to actually draw Spider-Man in a comic. For that reason alone, it should be better known.

[Klaxton]

One thing is this: In his greatest victories he is relentless. Juggernaut, Firelord, Ock ( ASM 33), and Rhino ( the issue where Rhino put him in the hospital), he simply would not quit, which is why he won.

Peter is relentless, smart and sneaky. That combination.is the.key to.his victory.
Relentless alone is a nigh-universal hero trait in pretty much every.medium. In Marvel itself, from Captain America to Hulk has refused to give up in terms of unbelievable odds

[Klaxton]

A single character "holding his own" against Juggernaut is still a pretty big feat. 80's Spider-Man was also facing down villains such as Mr. Hyde and the Wrecker and his Wrecking Crew, characters originally designed to give Thor a bad day.

I don't know where you got your info, but none of them were an actual threat to Thor. In the same arc that Hyde first appeared, Thor mudstomped him in way less than a minute. Wrecker beat up a weakened Thor. Once Thor was at full strength he demolished him. Every time they looked good against him had context

Spider-Man has also held his own against a team of X-Men on a few occasions and a Spider-Man robot duplicate created by Kang trounced the Avengers (Cap, Thor, Giant Man And Wasp) only for the real Spider-Man to show up and save the day.

And many of them has taken on and even defeated him solo. On multiple occasions.

Maybe you are just seriously underestimating the ol' Webhead?

Could it be just that you are overestimating him?

Amazing Spider-Man vol. 1 issue 1 ended with the Fantastic Four concerned that a teenager was "so blamed strong, how strong'll he be when he gets older?" I assumed that 80's Spider-Man titles were following that train of logic as he WAS now older and was often now pitted against more powerful rogues from other franchises. (Juggernaut, Absorbing Man and Titania, etc.)

Fair enough

So I didn't have a problem with his win over Firelord.

Of course you won't

If anything, I am more annoyed that they rolled back a lot of that character growth in an attempt to bring him back to his teenage years.

Spidey is not the only one to suffer from that

[JTHM]

And the robot Spider-Man even came back in an issue of Spider-Man Team-Up during the 90s while Ben Reilly was Spider-Man. Still, I think Avengers 11 was an early sign of just how badly many in the Marvel Universe have come to underestimate the web-slinger.

Because it's silly. Even back then many members of the Avengers had already shown to operate in levels that Spider-Man can only hope to be a minor help at. I honestly dont think Spider-Man gets little respect, if anything it's the other way around, books outside of his normal area tend to treat him good, sometimes maybe pay him too much respect like that issue in particular. Nowadays the differences have become even more obvious with time.

Spider-Man is a great character, but that doesnt mean he is in the same weight-class as many of his fellow heroes. Especially when you see their adventures in their due context.

[Triniking1234]

In the early days, Spidey bullied the FF and the boys on the X-Men then a robot dupe bullied the Avengers. I feel like when Stan was around in the beginning, Spidey only lost to Johnny Storm and the Hulk.

[Klaxton]

Roger Stern was always a proponent of Spider-Man as having great super-strength. When he began his run on ASM, he was following a bunch of writers (Conway to some extent, but Wein moreso, and Wolfman most egregiously) who had downplayed Spider-Man's great strength and toughness. In fact Wolfman in interviews later claimed that Spider-Man had no super-strength (and this from a self-proclaimed Ditko enthusiast). So you can imagine the context and how bad things were. Roger Stern when he started his run felt that he had to remind everyone of what a big deal Spider-Man actually is, and that's why his entire run often pit Spider-Man with X-Men, Avengers, and Fantastic Four enemies you know -- Foolkiller, Juggernaut, Mr. Hyde, The Mad Thinker, the Wrecking Crew (people forget the A-Story of "The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man"). Stern also emphasized that Spider-Man enemies like the Green Goblin and the Vulture had super-strength. Hobgoblin's entire quest was all about the fact that Norman Osborn's serum gave him super-strength and he wanted to recreate the formula and get that. The Vulture's flying harness was explicitly identified as having giving him super-strength.

This isn't exactly unknown to comic fans

There was no meta-vendetta between Spider-Man and the X-Men in the '80s. You must be confusing it with the real actual legit one that happened between X-Men and Fantastic Four.

Chris Claremont and John Byrne were collaborators on this epic run on Uncanny X-Men with Byrne as artist(and sometimes co-plotter) and Claremont as overall lead writer. The two of them butted heads all the time during that run, with Byrne openly combating and expressing dislike for Claremont's choices, and Claremont expressing outrage at Byrne undermining his scripts without his say-so (for instance as a penciller, Byrne would refuse to draw panels and actions he disliked, and skipped whole scenes Claremont wrote...and this is why Claremont started writing in big panels and overly verbose explanations for which he has become proverbial). Then John Byrne left the X-Men and became lead writer and artist on a classic run of Fantastic Four, and the two of them continued to undermine each other. So for instance, Claremont had Doctor Doom show up in an X-Men issue, Byrne said that Doom was a robot and the real Doom destroys that robot for making him look bad with the X-Men. Claremont was starting his long gestating retcon of Magneto's origins, John Byrne had Doom call Magneto a freak (no really) and then in a crossover tie-in for Acts of Vengeance, without telling Claremont or anyone, had Magneto say in thought bubbles that he was faking his backstory. (Calling this a vendetta is a misnomer because it's not like both sides are equal here...John Byrne was disproportionately petty and underhanded here, and it's one of the reasons he's not very popular these days)

Jim Shooter was Editor-In-Chief of Marvel and he wrote Secret Wars 1984 and the reason he often gave for why the EIC wrote this title (well quite aside from the fact that Shooter had a decent reputation as a comics' writer even then) was because of the grudges different writers had against each other. He cited the Claremont-Byrne feud and he felt that as EIC he alone could be counted to be fair to different characters and different creative runs and give as many characters as possible spotlight and moments to shine. Claremont had no issues at all about Spider-Man beating up the X-Men.

This was a nice read though

[Klaxton]

The Odinson's strength itself has fluctuated writer to writer and from run to run, with different people downplaying his strengths for the sake of the story. Like Walt Simonson had Thor depowered and needing to wear a special armor and then had him pitted against Jormungandr at the end of his run, in an epic issue done entirely in splash pages (which inspired Jurgens doing the same thing with Superman and Doomsday).

I don't know you are misremembering or generalizing, but Thor wasn't depowered or depicted weak. He was cursed by Hela with basically super brittle bone disease.

And well before Firelord, Spider-Man fought and defeat Mr. Hyde who is a Thor-tier villain with super-strength. And well after that, Spider-Man fought Morlun who was described to be as strong as Thor.

Hyde was never, even at his best, in the same league as Thor or other high tiers. He was an annoyance. In the above arc you mentioned Hyde knocked himself out running into armored Thor who just stood there and grunted when Hyde hit him.
And his power levels depend on the amount of serum he took and how long. Enough time without the serum makes him weak enough to get his bones beoken and be oneshotted by Cap.
And IIRC the only one who described Morlun with Thor level strength was Spider Man himself, who isn't the expert of Thor. Plus he only said Thor or Hulk had never hit him that hard, and when Thor or Hulk never had any reason hit him real hard, that's shaky ground. Plus considering his power levels too are variable depending on whose energy he sucked out, how much and how long ago, he isn't the best example either.