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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Has anyone here read the actual Firelord 2-Parter? I am just asking. Because based on the responses I read here I don't seem to get a sense that anyone has read the original story, nor have they understood the tone, or the presentation of it.

    Here's how the actual story breaks down.
    -- Firelord comes to Earth to try Pizza. No seriously. That's why he comes to Earth.
    -- Firelord doesn't know his own strength nor does he understand Earth customs very well. He causes a ton of collateral damage.
    -- This leads Spider-Man to intervene. The initial fight goes poorly for Spider-Man.
    -- He spends most of Part 1 and a lot of Part 2 trying to contact the Fantastic Four and the Avengers, but neither of them are available.
    -- He and Firelord fight across the city, burning and destroying glasses and buildings, so Spider-Man tries to lead him to an abandoned and thinly inhabited part of the area (because Zack Snyder wasn't writing the story).
    -- Spider-Man is finally at wits end and he unleashes a desperation attack on Firelord who underestimates him, and then at the last moment Avengers arrive.
    -- Final panel is a shot of devastation as the Avengers and Spider-Man are small figures in the frame.


    In other words, Spider-Man defeats Firelord because
    a) Firelord gets afflicted by "Chronic loser syndrome", not knowing or understanding his own powers and making a total fool of himself,
    b) Firelord underestimates him and doesn't use his full powers because again the story establishes he's an idiot or in an idiotic phase at the start of the story.
    c) Spider-Man tries his level best to get the FF and Avengers and out of desperation and anger fights against him by himself.
    d) The ending by showing Firelord's devastation, doesn't paint it as an entirely triumphant thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    How does Spider-Man look at the end of the Firelord 2-Parter? He's tired, fatigued, and just continuing on adrenaline. So it's not different from what you claim about that MTU story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Again from the way everyone talks about the story, people think Spider-Man KO'd Firelord in a single panel in the middle of an unrelated story. Firelord's fight was treated as a big deal and a very serious matter in the story itself.
    Could you stop nonsense like this? We have read.it, we just don't have rose-tint glass wearing interpretation like you

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    So Spider-Man v. Firelord makes sense in that context. Stern always said that he loved Defalco's run and is a real-life friend of his. And he always identified that story as among his favorites of Defalco's run.
    So the context is the writer wanted to make Spidey look good, this time at the expense of another character. Gotcha

    Likewise Firelord is a c-list villain. Among the Heralds of Galactus...Terrax is the big deal after Silver Surfer defected, not Firelord. Stern didn't have any skin in the game about feeling offended that Spider-Man jobbed a villain, nor did anyone else. Firelord has no fans. Nobody is gonna care a great deal about it.
    Wow just wow. You just basically said the fanbase of a character should decide wins or losses. So you like Spider Man and don't like Firelord, so Peter should win, Tyreus should lose That's rich.
    And as you can see here and all over the net, a lot of people do care.

    Also, its funny Firelord has dozens of more comic appearances than the character you arbitarily and ignorantly put as a big deal above him

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Firelord is indeed out of Spider-Man's league owing to the fact that he is a chump character and a trash character and Spider-Man beating him over the course of a two-part fight is the single best thing that ever happened to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    At the end of the day, Spider-Man versus Firelord is the single best story Firelord has ever been part of.
    This shows either some ridiculous ignorance or serious bias. Or probably both
    Unless you are the sole arbitrator of what's the best story Firelord was in, I xan.only see that statement as biased fanboy bull from. In case you actually beleive that, you.might want to check.out.his origin. Or the Morg storyline. Or Annihilation. Or literally anything.other than his.Spiderman fight.
    Imo, its more like the single worst story of Firelord
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Which is why it's a good thing that doesn't happen between Spider-Man and Firelord anyway. Spider-Man did not armwrestle Firelord, not even metaphorically.
    He outright beat him.down, that's pretty comparable.
    Last edited by Klaxton; 08-14-2020 at 05:49 PM.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    in the modern day, I am staunchly opposed to spider-man getting pwned in fights against "average" super powered folks like Black Tarantula. I hated that with a passion.

    Exactly. That's why stuff like Spider-Man v. Firelord has aged so much better than the sentiments of oversmart fans.

    Spider-Man v. Firelord is the natural order of the Marvel Universe.
    This is plain hilarious. Especially with average super powered Black Tarantula.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    One is preferable, and vastly more entertaining, than another.
    Yeah BT destroying Spider was far better in every way




    1) Spider-Man V. Firelord comes from the 80s widely considered the second golden age for Marvel Comics and Spider-Man as a whole. So this story comes from a time that's a golden period.
    That alone doesn't make any comic of that era golden. Pym losing it and slapping Janet, Ms Marvel's violation and Kitty Pryde's Sprite era was also during that time period
    2) Spider-Man V. Firelord was well received and widely liked on release and is still considered a classic story by many such as Roger Stern, Chip Zdarsky, as well as other comics critics like Allen Scherstahl and Mark Ginocchio. This idea that this fight is ridiculous is a very minority

    The negative view of this fight, is a minority-of-a-minority view and not at all representative of the actual reception and influence of that story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    How exactly did Firelord versus Spider-man have a negative effect? It's considered a classic Spider-Man story.

    And to the extent it had an influence of Spider-Man expanding the scope of stories available to him, it pointed the way towards Venom, towards the Captain Universe stories, towards Morlun all of which are highly regarded stories.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    No, I am just saying that the way people dunk on this, you would think that this was some long-term joke or punching bag forever when in fact it's often hailed as a classic moment.

    As recently as Nick Spencer's ASM#6, where Peter goes to the Bar with No Name and answers the quiz about "which herald of galactus did Spider-Man defeat" and Peter answers with "Firelord...and it was awesome".

    Pushing back against Firelord is like pushing back on Star Wars prequel-bashing where people have become so borderline fascist about their prequel hate that the taste of a minority gets to dictate over the actual views of history. Or you know pushing back against people who claim "Everyone hated the marriage" and so on.
    And it was derided by Dan Slott and mocked in Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2

    And you can scream and cry all you want that its considered a classic story and those who don't like it are a minority but that doesn't make it true. Spider fanboys like you are the ONLY ones who think so. Several Spider Man fans dismissed it because they can be objective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post

    Spider-Man v. Firelord isn't comparable at all to that situation.
    Actually it is one and.the same - as the character facing the.writer's favourite is downplayed both in intelligence and power to.make the favourite cone out on top
    Likewise, Deathstroke vs. Justice League happened in the 2000s, in other words it is modern comics. And look around and you will find other examples
    Yep PIS abd WIS always exist, and Spidey is one of the characters who have benefited the.most. from it

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The article of faith in any superhero story is that on a given day your main character and hero can go up against and stand up to any threat no matter the odds. And that's what the Firelord 2-parter was about. In that day, the Avengers weren't around and the FF weren't around and it fell on Spider-Man to rein in a childish and petty Herald of Galactus and he fought on and never quit or gave up.
    Nice generalization. Also, standing up to a threat and beating them up is different. And there are defined limits and rules in comics, or it just becomes Looney Tunes.
    And thw most important impact of that story was SMvsFl became the synonym to PIS/WIS, aka the times when the writer decides to toss the pre-established norms to the wind for upping their favourite.
    Last edited by Klaxton; 08-14-2020 at 05:52 PM.

  4. #79
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    When did Spider-Man even fight Thor?
    "Cable was right!"

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klaxton View Post
    This isn't exactly unknown to comic fans
    Actually it is. I have come across a lot of people who don't know that Vulture's harness actually gives him super-strength, so they assume that it's just an old man in a suit, when talking about him or describing him dismissively. Roger Stern's run is generally known only for two or three stories -- the Juggernaut fight, the Hobgoblin stuff, and Kid Who Created Spider-Man -- but the Vulture stuff isn't well known.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klaxton View Post
    I don't know you are misremembering or generalizing, but Thor wasn't depowered or depicted weak. He was cursed by Hela with basically super brittle bone disease.
    It comes to the same thing. He wasn't at his fighting best in the fight against Jormungandr and had to wear a special armor. Thor needing armor to fight a giant dragon monster serpent is, however the continuity wants to slice it, a way to build up tension and doubt as to whether Thor will walk away from this fight against the Midgard Serpent.

    Plus considering his power levels too are variable depending on whose energy he sucked out, how much and how long ago, he isn't the best example either.
    The fact is there isn't an objective power-level chart universally followed and universally enforced by Marvel. Everything is approximate and relative. What counts is how the story frames it...and what counts most is if the story is good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klaxton View Post
    So the context is the writer wanted to make Spidey look good, this time at the expense of another character.
    Firelord is a villain, and a minor forgettable C-Tier villain at that. Among Heralds of Galactus who aren't Silver Surfer, he's got less of a profile than Terrax. Spider-Man v. Firelord is without question the best story he was ever part of, and if not for this two-part story few would even know who Firelord is.

    Wow just wow. You just basically said the fanbase of a character should decide wins or losses.
    It's the writer who made the choice first of all, and he put it in service of a story that a sizable consensus enjoyed at the time and is generally liked by fellow writers and creators.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klaxton View Post
    That alone doesn't make any comic of that era golden.
    Which is why I inserted the word "generally" which makes it clear that it's a broad judgment and not one on every individual part of it. Spider-Man versus Firelord has always been considered a high point in Defalco-Frenz's entire run and one of the best fight scenes.

    Pym losing it and slapping Janet
    "The Trial of Yellowjacket" aka Avengers #211-230 is actually a really great story and the single best moment in Hank Pym's entire career happens at the very end where he defeats the Masters of Evil by himself, realizes he's not a superhero, takes responsibility for his actions all at the same time.

    And it was derided by Dan Slott and mocked in Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2
    The former is the most polarizing writer in the history of Spider-Man, not a voice for the consensus by any means, and the latter is some game that didn't sell as much as Spider-Man PS4.

    the synonym to PIS/WIS
    The synonym for this Deathstroke versus the Justice League or the Red Hulk going on a rampage.

  6. #81
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    Well clearly arguing with you is pointless

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    When did Spider-Man even fight Thor?
    Masterson Thor

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Spider-Man vs Firelord. Made no sense.
    Not if you put into account that Spider-Man's cosmic powers (of Captain Universe) was responsible. The symbiote might have awakened them. This is how Spider-Man was able to defeat Firelord.



    Those powers later returned to help Spidey to defeat Titania.

    Last edited by Darthfury78; 08-17-2020 at 10:41 PM.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darthfury78 View Post
    Not if you put into account that Spider-Man's cosmic powers (of Captain Universe) was responsible. The symbiote might have awakened them. This is how Spider-Man was able to defeat Firelord.



    Those powers later returned to help Spidey to defeat Titania.

    All of that is nonsense.

    The costume Spidey wore when fighting Firelord isn't the symbiote. It's just a regular costume that looks like the symbiote, which would be extra weak to Firelord in general anyway.

    Spider-man had cosmic powers only because the Enigma force attached itself to him for that one storyline. They're not innate to him.

    There is no relation between the symbiote and the Enigma force.

  10. #85
    "Emma is STILL right! Vegeta's Avatar
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    Maybe he tapped into his Spider-totem powers? (Solus killed Cosmic Captain Universe Spidey, and then Kaine with his "Other" powers killed Solus.)
    "The White Queen welcomes you, TO DIE!"

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