Why is there all this hate for Identity Crisis?

[Hol]

Wasn't Meltzer one of the writers who tried to redeem Terra, even though half the point of Judas Contract was 'Terra is an evil b**ch'?

I don't think so no? He wrote The Archers Quest, IDC, Last Will & Testament and a Superman story and JLA. I don't think he wrote anything else right? I can't think of anything Terra related really. Other than Brion looking for revenge in Last Will.

[Hol]

The story they tied it to was such a nice story for folks like me (who liked Ollie back before he became a terrible person). Very good story. Hate that it go trashed with IC. I also don't see anything in post-COIE versions of many of these characters that would make them mindwipe Bruce. And wasn't Post-COIE Bruce okay with mind-wiping white martians in one story? I haven't read that one, but I have heard that.

Also, did we see someone else's hands gagging Jean? I've read that, but am not going to look at the issue to check. If so, that's pretty big cheat and unfair to an audience trying to solve a mystery.

Here is someone else's takeDon't agree with all of it, but definitely agree with some.

I can see the post Crisis version of these characters doing exactly what they did. It all felt very in character to me. I have read a decent amount of pre Crisis stuff but I am no expert on them. But again this is a story about Post Crisis characters and Meltzer told a story about a post Crisis take on a pre Crisis story. So , for me, it worked really well. But clearly I am in the minority here.

I also prefer Ollie to how he was portrayed post Crisis so it might just be a preference thing. I never even liked him before Long Bow Hunters

[Tzigone]

I can see the post Crisis version of these characters doing exactly what they did. It all felt very in character to me.

How, though, when post-COIE Batman was okay with White Martian mindwipes, and yet was against mindwipes here (and again, the only one against it and what things that the other heroes had done would make you think they would do that to Bruce)? Why would it be in character for him to be the only one to object when we've seen him previously be okay with it? Or do I have my timing off and that was later for Batman (as I said before, I haven't read that story)?

[TheCape]

Wasn't Meltzer one of the writers who tried to redeem Terra, even though half the point of Judas Contract was 'Terra is an evil b**ch'?

Yeah, i think that he implied something among those lines during the figth between him and Geo-Force, but it was never confirmed.

[Hol]

How, though, when post-COIE Batman was okay with White Martian mindwipes, and yet was against mindwipes here (and again, the only one against it and what things that the other heroes had done would make you think they would do that to Bruce)? Why would it be in character for him to be the only one to object when we've seen him previously be okay with it? Or do I have my timing off and that was later for Batman (as I said before, I haven't read that story)?

The White Martian story took place after the Doctor Light mind wipe. Why would Bats be ok with it later and not before? I don't know. Maybe because Light is a human and the White Martians aren't? Maybe because they were a extinction level threat and it was either kill them all or mind wipe them. Maybe he changed his mind on things as time passed.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I don't think so no? He wrote The Archers Quest, IDC, Last Will & Testament and a Superman story and JLA. I don't think he wrote anything else right? I can't think of anything Terra related really. Other than Brion looking for revenge in Last Will.

Actually, yes he was.

In last will and testament, Deathstroke reveals that he was the cause behind Terra and Geoforce's powers, that they are his assets, etc. That it was her powers that made her go crazy.

I double checked

The White Martian story took place after the Doctor Light mind wipe. Why would Bats be ok with it later and not before? I don't know. Maybe because Light is a human and the White Martians aren't? Maybe because they were a extinction level threat and it was either kill them all or mind wipe them. Maybe he changed his mind on things as time passed.

To be fair, J'ohn claimed jurisdiction as the last representative of the Martians and thus having the right to do what he did. Plus, they were nearly Superman level bad guys, so...

[Hol]

Actually, yes he was.

In last will and testament, Deathstroke reveals that he was the cause behind Terra and Geoforce's powers, that they are his assets, etc. That it was her powers that made her go crazy.

I double checked



To be fair, J'ohn claimed jurisdiction as the last representative of the Martians and thus having the right to do what he did. Plus, they were nearly Superman level bad guys, so...

Thanks for checking. I wasn't 100% sure. Haven't read that issue in years.

[Jim Kelly]

I believed that Deathstroke was sexually abusing Terra. So while she was guilty of many things, she was not in a right state of mind and thus it's really Deathstroke's fault.

Even though that was shocking, I respected Marv and George for suggesting such a perverse relationship in a Code approved comic. My understanding is Marv backed away from the idea there was anything untoward between the two--so we shouldn't hate Deathstroke so much. But, for me, giving him such a dark edge was a mark of great writing and they should have left Deathstroke as a totally depraved human being who would use anyone and everyone for his own ends.

[Hol]

I believed that Deathstroke was sexually abusing Terra. So while she was guilty of many things, she was not in a right state of mind and thus it's really Deathstroke's fault.

Even though that was shocking, I respected Marv and George for suggesting such a perverse relationship in a Code approved comic. My understanding is Marv backed away from the idea there was anything untoward between the two--so we shouldn't hate Deathstroke so much. But, for me, giving him such a dark edge was a mark of great writing and they should have left Deathstroke as a totally depraved human being who would use anyone and everyone for his own ends.

I haven't read this NTT run in years...were they sleeping together? I feel like I remember the disturbing visual of them in bed together? Or them smoking after sex?

[Tzigone]

Even though that was shocking, I respected Marv and George for suggesting such a perverse relationship in a Code approved comic. My understanding is Marv backed away from the idea there was anything untoward between the two--so we shouldn't hate Deathstroke so much. But, for me, giving him such a dark edge was a mark of great writing and they should have left Deathstroke as a totally depraved human being who would use anyone and everyone for his own ends.

I understood from interviews that entire point of the sexual relationship between the two was to make Terra look bad. That the point was she's a slut. I have no problem with Terra being evil, myself, but I hate Wolfman's resolution to that (that Slade is a good man, and only Terra was evil) to a very extreme degree. That was, IIRC, after Perez left the comic. For me, before that he was just a generic villain. After that crap excusing him, I never wanted to see him on the page again.

I haven't read this NTT run in years...were they sleeping together? I feel like I remember the disturbing visual of them in bed together? Or them smoking after sex?

Don't recall them in bed (though I wouldn't swear to it), but seem to recall her smoking with a open robe that she's naked under. And lots of makeup, because apparently the message we were supposed to take was about her moral inferiority for this relationship.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I believed that Deathstroke was sexually abusing Terra. So while she was guilty of many things, she was not in a right state of mind and thus it's really Deathstroke's fault.

Even though that was shocking, I respected Marv and George for suggesting such a perverse relationship in a Code approved comic. My understanding is Marv backed away from the idea there was anything untoward between the two--so we shouldn't hate Deathstroke so much. But, for me, giving him such a dark edge was a mark of great writing and they should have left Deathstroke as a totally depraved human being who would use anyone and everyone for his own ends.

Their relationship was statutory rape, but Terra was revealed to be a killer prior to her meeting Deathstroke. Terra wasn't in the right state of mind when she died, because she was a sociopath with powers she barely understood.

He manipulated her to a degree, but not about wanting to kill the Titans for no good reason. And prior to Meltzer's writing, it was never implied that Deathstroke was the source of her powers, or that those powers made her crazy.

[achilles]

I would say that IC did for a lot of beloved heroes what Amazon Attacks did for the Amazons---it ruined them, albeit temporarily. For a few years, until people started to forget the horror....

Although, I can think of a few heroes that Amazon Attacks also ruined.

[Hol]

I understood from interviews that entire point of the sexual relationship between the two was to make Terra look bad. That the point was she's a slut. I have no problem with Terra being evil, myself, but I hate Wolfman's resolution to that (that Slade is a good man, and only Terra was evil) to a very extreme degree. That was, IIRC, after Perez left the comic. For me, before that he was just a generic villain. After that crap excusing him, I never wanted to see him on the page again.

Don't recall them in bed (though I wouldn't swear to it), but seem to recall her smoking with a open robe that she's naked under. And lots of makeup, because apparently the message we were supposed to take was about her moral inferiority for this relationship.

Yes. That is what I remember now.

[caj]

I haven't read this NTT run in years...were they sleeping together? I feel like I remember the disturbing visual of them in bed together? Or them smoking after sex?

I don't recall them ever being in bed together. Remember when Baxter issue #1 of New Teen Titans came out and Nightwing and Starfire were in bed together. I believe that was the first time the book ever showed two people in bed together, implying that two young unmarried people were having sex. It was a big deal, so I'm sure we never saw the older Slade in bed with a 16 year old girl.

Haven't read issue #55 (newsstand edition) of NTT in awhile, but when Changeling confronts Slade about his relationship with Terra, he asks Slade outright if he slept with her. Slade avoided the question (if memory serves) but he also didn't deny it.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I don't recall them ever being in bed together. Remember when Baxter issue #1 of New Teen Titans came out and Nightwing and Starfire were in bed together. I believe that was the first time the book ever showed two people in bed together, implying that two young unmarried people were having sex. It was a big deal, so I'm sure we never saw the older Slade in bed with a 16 year old girl.

Haven't read issue #55 (newsstand edition) of NTT in awhile, but when Changeling confronts Slade about his relationship with Terra, he asks Slade outright if he slept with her. Slade avoided the question (if memory serves) but he also didn't deny it.

She was in a slinky robe around Slade, and he didn't deny having sex with her. I take that as confirmation, when one allows for the comic code at the time